Ireland at Venice 2010

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby Tayto » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:17 pm

I won't be flying to Venice to see. I'm reliant on pictures and language that appears to pass as acceptable in Irish or international artistic circles.

The Archiseek link http://two.archiseek.com/2010/4am-at-the-biennale/ provides a description- I couldn't follow the F McD reference.
Having read and digested the ideas and terminology a few thoughts occurred.

The drawings indicate that the installation is possibly an exercise in the reconfiguring of the plan and section of a return-type timber staircase, with some decorative touches.

"A strange shape lurks beneath a staircase, partially obscured by draped linen, it seems hardly there".
In many domestic situations, that thing under the stairs is called the Toilet.

"The air is heavy with the smell of lavender as a light shines from atop the upholstered stairs".
That's the air-freshner.

"Positioned under the staircase will be a larger, stone polyhedron.
The shape of both the light and the stone represents the scarier side of domesticity. The stone, as he puts it, is “the ‘thing’ under the stairs,” the archetypal monster lurking just out of our field of vision."
It's definitely the Toilet.

"Much debate has centred on what the polyhedron represents. Often called “Dürer’s Solid”, it has been said to signify everything from the philosopher’s stone to the golden ratio."
Dürer's Solid, eh?

Toilet.

"This ghostly, impossible-but-possible shape will highlight a space between comfort and discomfort."
Hey- Tell me about it.

"Closer inspection reveals the ghostly, barely present face on its front (many say there are in fact several faces). "
I think this type of inspection was best described in the Father Ted episode where they discovered the image of the bishop on the skirting board.

As for Missarchi's cryptic crossword puzzle clues- someone else have a go.
Tayto
Member
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby onq » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:02 pm

Tayto wrote:Dürer's Solid, eh?

Toilet.


I think Durer's "solid" might be what's floating in the toilet.
You see a liminal space is defined as being in-between.

The toilet is a floater's waiting room.
A place to cool down and reflect.

Before the form is dispatched.
Into where it is dissolved.

Achieving formlessness.
Finally having "arrived".

The party wallflower.
The Artist's Angst.

Lurking/puking.
Understairs.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:12 pm

Heh, that's clever. The form of the language as elegant as the words.

Still, I hope you wipe your laptop afterwards, onq.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4592
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby onq » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:47 pm

GrahamH wrote:Heh, that's clever. The form of the language as elegant as the words.

Still, I hope you wipe your laptop afterwards, onq.



Post with the laptop.

Pooh only in the toilet.

Simple mantra works.


ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby Tayto » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:43 pm

There's a report from the Biennale in the Irish Times of 4.9.10-
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0904/1224278167635.html

There's an introduction to Albrecht Durer's Melencolia I here-
http://www.andrewgrahamdixon.com/archive/readArticle/124

"The Melencolia has provoked reams of speculative interpretation but its meaning has not been definitively established. The seated figure in Durer’s print seems trapped by some kind of despair, or at least a form of tormenting creative block. Head resting heavily on one hand, sitting glumly on the step of a half-finished building (the ladder propped against it indicates that construction has been interrupted), the cloaked and winged melancholic is surrounded, almost overwhelmed even, by the tools of labour: a grindstone on which an indolent, seated putto dozes; a pair of pincers; a hammer, a plane, a saw, a ruler and some bent nails; a small crucible with a pair of tongs beside it. Evidence of now abandoned enterprises are to be found in the form of a perfectly turned sphere of wood and, above it, of a partially worked rhomboid of cut stone. The slouched and morose melancholic appears to be an agonised artist: a creative individual who, for some reason, cannot bear to create."

See, I just knew this thread was the thread of the tortured artist.


May I betray my lack of culture again by suggesting that "the scarier side of domesticity" might have been represented more forcefully if Melencolia I's hungry-looking greyhound was positioned under the stairs, rather than Durer's Solid. Just a thought.
Tayto
Member
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby missarchi » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:44 pm

I'm seeing a skeleton in the closet and in the skeleton is a duplicate known as the origin
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby gunter » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:55 am

Tayto wrote:
"The Melencolia has provoked reams of speculative interpretation but its meaning has not been definitively established. The seated figure in Durer’s print seems trapped by some kind of despair . . . . .''



Image

Tayto, I think there may have been something of a breakthrough in the interpretation of this work recently.

The unexpected discovery of a larger wood-cut version of 'Melencolia' has set the cat amongst the pigeons. Apparently originally there was another figure to the left of the composition, a male nude figure tentatively identified as Albrecht Durer himself.

Now with the benefit of the seeing the full work for the first time, experts have noted that the seated female figure is no longer staring vacantly into the middle distance but is in fact gazing, with some apparent dismay, on the scrawny male nude figure, focussing somewhere around mid torso.

Many German art historians now believe the seated female figure [with the wings that appear to be failing to take flight] to be none other that Frau Durer and have noted that the attire worn by this female figure would be consistent with known Bavarian wedding dress design of the early 16th century.

Some German art historians [the female ones] have gone further and suggested that it is Frau Durer and not Albrecht that may in fact have been the author of this enigmatic work . . . noting that the famous A-D monogram works equally well for Agnes as it does for Albrecht.

Now all they have to work out is if there's any possible connection between the scrawny male nude figure with the appendage of a cherub, the seemingly despondent female figure in the probable wedding dress, the fact that the female figure is holding a measurement dividers on her lap open at an expectant 10 inches approximately, and that curious title of the piece - 'Melancholia'
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby onq » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:52 am

Okay, okay guys. Reality check here.

All that may be relevant, but to me, here, now its meaning is abundantly clear.

This is a self portrait of the artist suffering a mid-life crisis, surrounded by the paraphernalia of his profession that once he longed for and now seems to trammel him.

Perhaps the creative fire is gone, perhaps he's between clients like most of the architectural profession here at the moment.

The figure to the right is his youthful self, idealised in his minds eye, and he is measuring what he has achieved to date against his aspirations and success so long ago.

He came to success early - in his twenties and he is looking back on his career measuring himself now against his abilities then and finding it hard to face.

There may be a reference to his sexual performance and his girth at the moment, the one failing, the other growing.

He has descended from his manic phase in which all his tools of the trade bow to his will, to his depressive phase, where they all seem to jeer at him for having done no work, or not having the the will or physical ability to do good creative work.

The youthful figure also represents the new generation of artists following him, the people who, while he admores them greatly, he knows will supplant him one day and threaten not only his livelihood, but also challenge his place in Art History.

The sword could be the sword of righteousness, which all artists wield in the execution of their work, or it could be the sword of justice, the imagined retribution for past wrongs committed - or he could be contemplating suicide.

Durer's solid could well be a kidney stone or some gout he's suffering from, giving him gyp and causing his depressed state in the first place.

This stuff isn't brain science, y'know - can't believe some guy milked enough out of it to write two volumes.

That's a lot more than a 1,000 words, innit?

:rolleyes:

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby missarchi » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:39 am

missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:32 pm

Everything about this just goes to show why so many people find architecture so insufferably insufferable. Those of us mere mortals are constantly embarrassed by the sheer arrogance of those “above”

IS this an exercise in irony??????

The artist formally known as Tommy Power and his gang

present a folly in pleated linen and lavendered softwood, called “4am”, in the Palazzo delle Esposizioni in the Giardini of Venice. The project constructs a liminal space, between two bespoke subject objects, as a domestic shadowplay

The square footprint casts the shadow of Adam’s house in Paradise

Reduced continuity between inside and outside multiplies the encounter between here and there.
The tactic and strategy of servant and served plot the room plan.
At the half landing, nothing happens

4am is staged between hylo and hedra, a shade and a stone after Dürer’s Melancholia I of 1514.
At 4am the air duct fouls the upholstered dogleg staircase, which ascends to descend at the fire escape of the Palace



NOW LET’S LOOK AT THE BRIEF: the installation is to:

"help people relate to architecture, help architecture relate to people and help people relate to themselves”

Why do we bother wasting money on this guff?
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby gunter » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:09 pm

Do we even know that Adam had a house in paradise?

I thought the whole idea of paradise was that you didn't need possessions, you slept on a bed of rushes, fending off the constant attentions of Eve.

That they lived in a feckin house puts a whole new complexion on things. Is Durer depicting the melancholic consequences of domesticity, Do the discarded nails and carpentry paraphernalia in 'Melencolia I' symbolize nothing more than the marital strife associated with the inability to put up a simple set of shelves? Is Durer's 'solid' an abortive attempt at a coffee table? These are questions we probably wouldn't even have asked if it wasn't for the dePaor installation.

hats, you're not engaging with this at the appropriate depth.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:34 pm

Art is not like other culture because its success is not made by its audience. The public fill concert halls and cinemas every day, we read novels by the millions, and buy records by the billions. We the people, affect the making and quality of most of our culture, but not our art.

The Art we look at is made by only a select few. A small group create, promote, purchase, exhibit and decide the success of Art. Only a few hundred people in the world have any real say. When you go to an Art gallery you are simply a tourist looking at the trophy cabinet of a few millionaires...


or perhaps a better quote from the great vandal - and one that sums up pretentious wastes of time such as the VB:

Become good at cheating and you never need to become good at anything else
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby what? » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:10 pm

Here we go again. natter natter.

Why cant things be simple and obvious to everyone? lowest common denominator bull-shit.

the most important architectural exhibition in the world should not be about Barratt homes and stuff normal people find easy and comfortable. thats like saying the olympics should be reserved for the most average athletes.VB it is about provocative ideas and architecture of the highest quality being put out there in an international context.

As i understand it there is an open call for biennale submissions every two years. if you lot think you can do something better/ more relevant than these guys perhaps your time might be better spent submitting proposals?
what?
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:18 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:24 pm

how, exactly, is dumping a pile of paper in someone else's bedroom or wrapping a wendy house in linen provocative? Because someone writes about it and tells you so or sits in silence for 6 minutes looking baleful? How are either of these installations "architecture", let alone anything of high quality? Personally I think that the importance is not in how a bunch of architectects get together and rub each others' personal regions but how it can be conveyed as important or interesting to the "lowest common denominator", as you so (k)nobly put it . Architecture isn't "elite", it just thinks it should be.

Just because no-one understands you doesn't make you an artist. It is more of a challenge to meet a brief than to wrap it up in gobbledygook just to make your peers think your whacky.
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby what? » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:34 pm

Jackson Pollock? sure i could do that.
what?
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:18 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:42 pm

what? wrote:Jackson Pollock? sure i could do that.


with me micky. - have a lash yourself at http://jacksonpollock.org/

what's he got to do with architecture anyway?
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby what? » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:51 pm

are you serious? its an analogy of your tediously parochial attitude to architectural ideas that cant be quantified by a spreadsheet or a BER rating.
what?
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:18 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:55 pm

what? wrote:are you serious? its an analogy of your tediously parochial attitude to architectural ideas that cant be quantified by a spreadsheet or a BER rating.


ironically that post is an analogy of my point
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby what? » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:07 pm

you people bore the shit out of me.
if i wanted to read the above predictable reviews I could have asked the daily sport or my next door neighbour to tell me what they think of the Venice Biennale. have you no interest in architecture. have you no aspiration beyond the standard? it must be too comfortable in your box to bother getting out. go back to sleep.
what?
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:18 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:22 pm

what? wrote:you people bore the shit out of me.
if i wanted to read the above predictable reviews I could have asked the daily sport or my next door neighbour to tell me what they think of the Venice Biennale. have you no interest in architecture. have you no aspiration beyond the standard? it must be too comfortable in your box to bother getting out. go back to sleep.


Just to reiterate: TP's brief was to "help people relate to architecture, help architecture relate to people and help people relate to themselves”.

That would be people like your next door neighbour. Or the daily sport reader. Not condescending pseuds like yourself. Their reviews are actually what real people think. Whether you like it or not architecture must engage normal people. Art can be a load of old wank but architecture cannot
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby what? » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:34 pm

A predictably simplistic understanding of things.

Normal people love the convention centre. Does that mean its the pinnacle of contemporary Irish architecture?
Normal people love suburban semi-Ds. does that make them the most appropriate housing type for every family in Ireland?

Why do we need architects if normal people already know what they like? why bother.
what?
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:18 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby gunter » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:48 pm

Before this gets ugly . . . . or after it gets ugly, but before it gets out of control . . .

Personally I would place T. dePaor on a higher level than most of the practitioners what? usually jumps in to defend.

As far as I know, dePaor is widely respected, and is by no means part of that clique that believe they know it all and have the medals to prove it.

Was it not dePaor who pointed out that the Grandees, in plundering the back catalogue of the Modern Movement, were hell bent on - ''giving us the 1930s we never had'' - or excellently chozen words to that effect?

Of course an installation at the Venice Biennial is going to be a tad pretentious, that's what they're looking for, but at least a bit of thought seems to have gone into it and, in return, I rather thought we were getting something out of it.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby Tayto » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:08 pm

what? wrote:.......

Why cant things be simple and obvious to everyone? lowest common denominator bull-shit.

the most important architectural exhibition in the world should not be about Barratt homes and stuff normal people find easy and comfortable. thats like saying the olympics should be reserved for the most average athletes.VB it is about provocative ideas and architecture of the highest quality being put out there in an international context.

As i understand it there is an open call for biennale submissions every two years. if you lot think you can do something better/ more relevant than these guys perhaps your time might be better spent submitting proposals?


Reading http://www.archdaily.com/76736/4am-by-depaor-architects-at-venice-biennale/ as a philistine, I appreciated the construction specification:
"The planed and lavendered 2” x 4” softwood cribbage is glued and screwed at 400 mm centres."
There's an idea-
Aromatic scratch 'n sniff domestic stud partitions.

Anyway, the response to the exhibit here is primarily a response to the language selected to describe the ideas. An associated poem entitled "4am" might have helped. Vagueness intrigue, allusion and reference might have suited that format better than the descriptions communicated through the critiques.

What purpose does this serve:
"A square plan is an economical speculation beyond the vernacular, which is difficult to extend.
The approach is either oblique or flat and dictates the site."

This is not economical. This is completely superfluous, designed and included to represent depth.
Tayto
Member
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby missarchi » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:42 pm

what? wrote: if you lot think you can do something better/ more relevant than these guys perhaps your time might be better spent submitting proposals?


It's a waste of time... whats wrong with tag team?
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Ireland at Venice 2010

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:18 am

Calvin: "This is my snow sculpture, 'Bourgeois Buffoon.' Can you believe mom rejected my grant application to continue making these?"

Hobbes: "Why do you need a grant?"

Calvin: "I'm on the cutting edge of art! My work deserves public support!

Hobbes: "What if the public doesn't like your work?"

Calvin: "They're not supposed to like it! This is avant-garde stuff! I'm criticizing the lowbrows who can't appreciate great art like this!"

Hobbes: "But you'll take their money."

Calvin: "What do you want me to do, suffer?!"
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland