Fire certs

Re: Fire certs

Postby henno » Wed May 12, 2010 12:45 pm

Tayto wrote:
If the PM had accurately described the project he would have received accurate quotes.
.


why do you think there was any difference in the brief given to the architects and the engineer??

on your figures...

figure 16 on page 59 of the irish wheel chair association access guideline shows the suggested size of a wheelchair accessible WC.

It sizes out at 4.5 sq m, not 3 as you state. Maybe the engineer knows where to go for best design standards and not just minimums like you have stated??

assuming two wc cubicles and a wash area in the staff toilet it would be a safe estimate to design a room of approximately 8 sq m (2 wc cubicles, 2 wash sinks, hand dryers)

now assuming the corridor is 1.2 m (which it should be) that allows only 6.25 m length for the corridor, and allowing for the final exit at the end... easily made up of the widths of the staff and disabled wcs.

you figures, like your argument, dont stand up.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby onq » Wed May 12, 2010 1:42 pm

Tayto wrote:Ok,
The exit doors at each end of the Hall don't need to be upgraded because final exit doors are not required to to be fire doors.
(snip)


While they may not function as internal fire doors, they have in some respects a more onerous function as Final Exit Doors.
There is a balance to be struck in all buildings between security and safety, and the Final Exit Door is where this balance is most crucial.
Locks cannot be put on final exit doors.
That is to say, the door cannot be capable of being permantly locked in a manner would would impede the exit of the design population.

While the building is in use the doors must be unlocked.
However the door cannot be capable of being opened from outside.
For places of assembly or institutions where a lot of people could be arriving at the door at once, the opening mechanism has to be simple and effective.
This usualy led to the development of a press-bar type door operation.

Locks on such doors are problematical and there are not easy solutions particularly in areas where there is a high incidendence of vandalism.
One workaround is a padlock and chain to prevent full opening during lockup hours that can be removed totally from the door during opening hours.
Another workaround is an external padlock and receiver that must be opened according to a fire protocol when the building is in use.

The threshold for the door used as the access door cannot exceed 15mm and requires a ramped approach.
Both doors must afford egress to wheelchair operating disabled persons or else provide a place of safety in which they can wait until rescue can be organized.
So, with respect Tayto, in terms of FInal Exit Doors, not only the doors themselves for use as final exits, but also the surfaces and approaches to them need to be in compliance and a place of safety installed if not.

ONQ.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Wed May 12, 2010 2:46 pm

[I][/I]
henno wrote:why do you think there was any difference in the brief given to the architects and the engineer??

on your figures...

figure 16 on page 59 of the irish wheel chair association access guideline shows the suggested size of a wheelchair accessible WC.

It sizes out at 4.5 sq m, not 3 as you state. Maybe the engineer knows where to go for best design standards and not just minimums like you have stated??

assuming two wc cubicles and a wash area in the staff toilet it would be a safe estimate to design a room of approximately 8 sq m (2 wc cubicles, 2 wash sinks, hand dryers)

now assuming the corridor is 1.2 m (which it should be) that allows only 6.25 m length for the corridor, and allowing for the final exit at the end... easily made up of the widths of the staff and disabled wcs.

you figures, like your argument, dont stand up.


Oh God, ok let's nitpick.

1. Well well well. Look who hasn't done their homework. The relevant recommended guidelines of the Department of Education and Science are those of the NDA. This is described in TGD-020, General Design Guidelines for Schools.
2. The wheelchair toilet requires a shower (oops). Oh- you've called it up as a "wheelchair accessible wc". Not quite tchnically correct I'm afraid. You lose marks there. This toilet (or "universal access sanitary suite") will therefore be 4.5m2 approx.
3. 2 cubicles 2 whbs and hand-dryers for a small school, single corridor. Ok - let's go with that then. That's easily accommodated in 6.5m2 approx, nevermind 8m2. Sure why didn't you say 15m2 while you're at it?
4. As the toilets open over a presumably vented corridor then no vented lobby is required. (You can always add one in tho' if you like).
5. Total area 11m2., just over 1/2 the proposed area.

(Nit pick/point score on an imaginary design:-
So, you've quoted the wrong standards, oversized the design and if accepted, would have committed a small school with limited budget to excessive expenditure. Stick with the day job).

henno wrote:......now assuming the corridor is 1.2 m (which it should be) that allows only 6.25 m length for the corridor, and allowing for the final exit at the end... easily made up of the widths of the staff and disabled wcs.

you figures, like your argument, dont stand up.


Forgive me, but I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here with this statement. (Edit- Ah, I see now. You're assuming there's a central corridor with rooms either side. A consequent extension to one end requires that the corridor be extended as well. That's a serious amount of assumptions to make in order to nit pick and point score. Why? Why did you bother? Is is completely beyond you to consider the central point of my posts?
In relation to this imaginary school, did you even consider a plan where there is a single-sided corridor, classrooms on one side, and external wall on the other, with the extension built off the external wall, ie. no corridor extension required?).


And yes, given the wildly varying quotes and complete absence of any reasonable architect's quote, I doubt if there was an accurate project description sent out for tender. That's just a guess. I may, of course, be wrong.

The point I'm making is I find it very hard to believe in the received quotes, as described, for the project, as described, given current conditions in the profession.

I understand from experience of this website that to argue otherwise is pointless.
You are right. I'm wrong.

Generally architects are overpriced and overcharging and this "case" proves it. :rolleyes:
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Wed May 12, 2010 3:17 pm

onq wrote:While they may not function as internal fire doors, they have in some respects a more onerous function as Final Exit Doors.
There is a balance to be struck in all buildings between security and safety, and the Final Exit Door is where this balance is most crucial.
Locks cannot be put on final exit doors.
That is to say, the door cannot be capable of being permantly locked in a manner would would impede the exit of the design population.

While the building is in use the doors must be unlocked.
However the door cannot be capable of being opened from outside.
For places of assembly or institutions where a lot of people could be arriving at the door at once, the opening mechanism has to be simple and effective.
This usualy led to the development of a press-bar type door operation.

Locks on such doors are problematical and there are not easy solutions particularly in areas where there is a high incidendence of vandalism.
One workaround is a padlock and chain to prevent full opening during lockup hours that can be removed totally from the door during opening hours.
Another workaround is an external padlock and receiver that must be opened according to a fire protocol when the building is in use.

The threshold for the door used as the access door cannot exceed 15mm and requires a ramped approach.
Both doors must afford egress to wheelchair operating disabled persons or else provide a place of safety in which they can wait until rescue can be organized.
So, with respect Tayto, in terms of FInal Exit Doors, not only the doors themselves for use as final exits, but also the surfaces and approaches to them need to be in compliance and a place of safety installed if not.

ONQ.


Jaysus, this place is Nitpicker Central today. Or is it Point-Scorers Anonymous?

That's a lovely sounding extract from some Fire Consultant undergraduate lecture series. But eh, what has it got to do with my comment?

The school in question, apparently is functioning, apparently has a fire detection system in place, is run under the authority of the Minister for Education and the Department of Education and Science and is apparently insured.

Would the Department and Minister expose themselves to a Stardust-type inquiry following a fire or legal action by not having compliant fire escapes? Granted, not knowing all the facts, I assumed not.

Perhaps somone who knows will tell us of the current level of inspection and enforcment of fire regulations in our schools.

The school may or may not need to be completely upgraded in order to comply with regulations. By pulling me up on this point, you are indicating that you know. Eh..."With respect" ONQ, how do you know?

My comment was based on assumptions, but I may be wrong. I will henceforth amend the post to include the words "may not". ie. "may not need to be upgraded", in acknowledgement that it is based upon the aforementioned assumptions.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby teak » Wed May 12, 2010 5:22 pm

Details apart, it seems that JimJim has either disappeared after winding us all up -- or else he's gone out seriously looking for better action for his money.
Maybe he will find someone who'll go a bit easy as it's where that arch/arch tech 's own kids go to school.

I don't know what a fire cert costs.
I made efforts to elicit eng/arch PI insurance charges yesterday from someone in UK but they were giving up no secrets -- just said it related to things like complexity, service fees applied, professional's experience, overall turnover p.a., etc.
But on the cost of design, planning & builder's drawings for a properly qualified person in private practice, is it not supposed to be ~ 10% of the project cost ?
Could this place not be built for €100 a sq ft ?
=> €21,500 for the builder.
=> ~ €2,500 for design, planning + builder's progress drawings.

Add on € x for the PI insurance & € y for the Fire Cert.

Wearnicehats:

An MRIAI self-employed ltd co, 20 years exp, 1 wife/husband (small job or housebound), 2 children, mortgage = €1, 200 p.m. with 10 years left on it, 1 1.6L car + one 1.2L car, family VHI, Life Insurances = €100 p.m., Pensions for MRIAI + partner ex practice turnover = €600 p.m., small rented office uptown = € 1,000 p.m., no office employees (at present), lease payments on office equipment = € 200 p.m., usual professional dev outgoings, usual spec budget for attracting customers, Unkown PI insurance, etc.
Some of the above can be squeezed up, e.g. the cars running expenses at CS rate.

I'd put it all at about a practice income of at least €100,000.
So allowing for holidays, you'd be aiming at €3,000 a week.
I know that creative time, e.g. designing, cannot be seen on an hourly rate.
But more routine stuff , going through a procedure well-coursed before, is more consistent.
So say €80 an hour for more routine stuff. €150 an hour for design work. + VAT.

Now, is the design input to the school extension going to be more than 5-10 hours ?
The rest on planning mostly.
Generation of progress drawings in this case not too much.

What do you think ?
In the present climate, could you get by in MRIAI's shoes ?
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Meow » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:00 pm

Yes- It's exempt from a Fire Cert app as it's under 25 sq.m in accordance with Building Control Regs Article 11.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:44 pm

Meow wrote:Yes- It's exempt from a Fire Cert app as it's under 25 sq.m in accordance with Building Control Regs Article 11.


so if I built an extension that blocked off the only fire exit from a building then it'd be cool if it is under 25sqm? you cannot make a sweeping statement like that when it comes to Part B
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Meow » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:04 pm

It's exempt from a Fire Cert, as I said. It's not a sweeping statement. It's a fact. As written in the Building Control Regulations.

You still have to comply with ALL the building regulations, not just Fire Safety regulations, but all of them.

You are correct to say that you can't block up a Fire Exit if it's needed to comply with the building regulations, but this doesn't change the fact that it's exempt from a Fire Cert.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:20 am

Meow wrote:It's exempt from a Fire Cert, as I said. It's not a sweeping statement. It's a fact. As written in the Building Control Regulations.

You still have to comply with ALL the building regulations, not just Fire Safety regulations, but all of them.

You are correct to say that you can't block up a Fire Exit if it's needed to comply with the building regulations, but this doesn't change the fact that it's exempt from a Fire Cert.


would you mind posting a link to that exemption for everyone's info please
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Re: Fire certs

Postby teak » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:04 pm

Which developments require a Fire Safety Certificate?

The following developments (other than those listed as exempt below) require a Fire Safety Certificate;

*
Works in connection with the design and construction of a new building
*
Works in connection with the material alteration of:
1. A day centre
2. A building containing a flat
3. A hotel, hostel or guest building
4. An institutional building
5. A place of assembly
6. A shopping centre
* Works in connection with the material alteration of a shop, office or industrial building where additional floor area is being provided within the existing building or where the building is being sub divided into a number of units for separate occupancy.
* Works in connection with the extension of a building by more than 25 square metres
* A building as regards which a material change of use takes place.

Which developments are exempted from the requirement of a Fire Safety Certificate?

The following buildings are exempted from the requirement to obtain a Fire Safety Certificate:

* Certain single storey agricultural buildings.
* A building used as a dwelling other than a flat.
* A single storey domestic garage.
* A single storey building ancillary to a dwelling which is used exclusively for recreational or storage purposes or the keeping of plants, birds or animals for domestic purposes and is not used for any trade or business or for human habitation.
* Works by a Building Control Authority in it's functional area.
* Works in connection with a Garda station, a courthouse, a barracks and certain government buildings.


It's clear from Jimjim's post that it's to be used as part of the school building - a "place of assembly".
That alone would make it necessary to get it fire-certed, surely.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:37 pm

teak wrote:Which developments require a Fire Safety Certificate?

The following developments (other than those listed as exempt below) require a Fire Safety Certificate;

*
Works in connection with the design and construction of a new building
*
Works in connection with the material alteration of:
1. A day centre
2. A building containing a flat
3. A hotel, hostel or guest building
4. An institutional building
5. A place of assembly
6. A shopping centre
* Works in connection with the material alteration of a shop, office or industrial building where additional floor area is being provided within the existing building or where the building is being sub divided into a number of units for separate occupancy.
* Works in connection with the extension of a building by more than 25 square metres
* A building as regards which a material change of use takes place.

Which developments are exempted from the requirement of a Fire Safety Certificate?

The following buildings are exempted from the requirement to obtain a Fire Safety Certificate:

* Certain single storey agricultural buildings.
* A building used as a dwelling other than a flat.
* A single storey domestic garage.
* A single storey building ancillary to a dwelling which is used exclusively for recreational or storage purposes or the keeping of plants, birds or animals for domestic purposes and is not used for any trade or business or for human habitation.
* Works by a Building Control Authority in it's functional area.
* Works in connection with a Garda station, a courthouse, a barracks and certain government buildings.


It's clear from Jimjim's post that it's to be used as part of the school building - a "place of assembly".
That alone would make it necessary to get it fire-certed, surely.


not a material alteration though
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:19 pm

Meow wrote:It's exempt from a Fire Cert, as I said. It's not a sweeping statement. It's a fact. As written in the Building Control Regulations.

You still have to comply with ALL the building regulations, not just Fire Safety regulations, but all of them.

You are correct to say that you can't block up a Fire Exit if it's needed to comply with the building regulations, but this doesn't change the fact that it's exempt from a Fire Cert.


It's not exempt. It's not a fact. You've misinterpreted the building regulations.

teak wrote:[I]The following developments (other than those listed as exempt below) require a Fire Safety Certificate;....................................

* Works in connection with the material alteration of:
1. A day centre
2. A building containing a flat
3. A hotel, hostel or guest building
4. An institutional building
5. A place of assembly
6. A shopping centre


Therefore the proposed increase in floor area (material alteration) of the place of assembly (school) requires that this proposed school extension development must have, in compliance with the Planning Act and Building Regulations,

1. Planning Permission
2. A Commencement Notice
3. A Fire Certificate.

Your interpretation is incorrect. Otherwise every school could happily have a 25m2 classroom/office/store extension without having to go through the planning or fire certification process. That just doesn't happen.
Guess why.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Jimjim » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:24 pm

Forgot about this thread, sorry. Only signed in today with new question re building a little conservatory on my house in the coming months.
Anyway,
In relation to school works, we did go with the engineer. Fees in the end work out at 10% of build cost to include planning, design, final certification & the health & safety stuff with him being signed up as supervisor for design stage. Fire cert cost is extra & it was €1300. He was prepared to walk away instead of doing everything for the 10%. Seeing as he was significantly cheaper than everyone else, we thought it was fair in the end. I can see how on a major job, it might be easier to stick to 10% overall but as was pointed out by all the architects, this small job still required a full pllanning application & fire cert application.

Anyway, planners are preparing to grant permission Im told so all is going well with the engineer
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Wild Bill » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:06 am

Hehehe!

*butters slice of bread and heads to inspect school projects underway*
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