Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:18 pm

wearnicehats wrote:leaving aside your rapier wit for a second -
oooh you'd miss the archiseek sarcasm if you haven't been on in a few wks.!

(tho admit guilty also)
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Bago » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:17 am

cash converters on the corner of Thomas and Meath street's gotten a lick of paint, bring sunglasses and a sick bucket. Leagues ahead in the shopfront race to the bottom.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:29 am

Yes, it bathes the street in quite the Dairygold glow doesn't it? As if it wasn't bad enough already. It's like the canary yellow has lifted itself off the head shop across the road (recently repainted in delightful primary colours), only to plonk itself on one of the most prominent buildings on the street. Next stop SS. Augustine and John!
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby thebig C » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:52 am

Bago wrote:cash converters on the corner of Thomas and Meath street's gotten a lick of paint, bring sunglasses and a sick bucket. Leagues ahead in the shopfront race to the bottom.


Was the building rendered or faced in brick? I always think its a crime when somebody paints over the brick frontages of Georgian/Victorian buildings.......for which they should be punished by being beaten to death with a shovel! JK. Seriously, nothing spoils a buildings context and appearance more then a dodgy paint job.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:03 pm

It is indeed faced in brick, thebigC. A fine Victorian brick premises that's itching for a few gallons of paint stripper. It would look fabulous chatting with the NCAD red brick building of similar date across the road and The Clock pub.

Just flicking back on this thread (makes for better reading than anything in my bookcase) and revisiting Frawley's from a fresh perspective, the utterly barminess of the recent failed proposal hits you, as with poor Thomas Street, like a bullet train. It really was the Fitzwilliam Street of the Liberties. Nutty, loopy stuff.

Image

GUBU is not the word, allbeit sadly the case with many other cases that failed to escape mega over-development. The Development Plan might as well have been chucked into the mincer.

They really were crazed times. Not that anything has changed. In fact, if the money returned in the morning, almost certainly we'd be getting exactly the same type of proposals being submitted, and willingly granted.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:48 pm

An aerial view of the Meath Street school from about 1960, with its roof and chimneys intact. What a fine building it was.

Image


An interesting roof form, in terms of the broad channel between the parallel ridges, and the sliver of an arm to the rear that in substance terms presents something of a charade to the laneway.

Image

There seems to have been a bijou playground out the back.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:17 pm

thebig C wrote:Was the building rendered or faced in brick? I always think its a crime when somebody paints over the brick frontages of Georgian/Victorian buildings.......for which they should be punished by being beaten to death with a shovel! JK. Seriously, nothing spoils a buildings context and appearance more then a dodgy paint job.


As highlighted by thebig C, the corner building at the junction of Thomas Street and Meath Street is a case that demands attention by the local authority. A highly prominent building in an ACA on a Key Historic Street as defined in the Development Plan, this is a classic case of where a lottery fund earmarked specifically for historic buildings should be exploited to constructive effect. Alternatively, if we had the mechanisms in place as used in many UK cities, the local authority could move in and carry out the work, having identified it on a register of properties requiring conservation or restoration work, splitting the bill with the owner on favourable terms. Instead of this, however, we have nothing, do nothing, and remain with nothing.

The current appearance of this corner building belies its status as one of the most attractive and architecturally intact historic commercial premises in the Liberties. Constructed c. 1880 as host to an evidently successful merchant trader, the building has its origins in the late 19th century period of substantial change on Thomas Street, when older buildings were being demolished and replaced after a century of decay, or refaced to bring them up to date - all emerging on foot of the new money of the burgeoning merchant and business class of late Victorian Dublin.

Image

Two storeys over a substantial ground floor shop, the building retains its original red brick façade, timber sash windows and even the attractive timber fascia of the original shopfront floating above the plywood monster of Cash Converters below.

As observed earlier, the latter is being transformed as we speak from pillar box red to canary yellow. What a disaster.

Image


This is in spite of the potential for either a solid reproduction or high quality contemporary shopfront to be installed under the original high fascia and dentilated cornice. Even the carved timber corbels remain to the ends.

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A shopfront within a shopfront. Only in Dublin... The blind ignorance of plot divisions merely consolidates the visual chaos.

The upper floors are crying out for the paint to be stripped, the original brick to be exposed, cleaned and re-pointed as necessary, and the façade restored to its former glory.

Image

As can be seen above and below, an attractive frieze of terracotta tiles runs around beneath the cornice, as the valiant efforts of the elements are already trying to tell us.

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More brick peeking through. This paint would walk off.

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The end bays on Meath Street are slenderer and clustered so as to denote the office and residential entrance to the accommodation above, which at ground floor level, suffice to say, has long since lost such ceremony.

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Seen below at the extreme left.

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It comes as no surprise that the upper floors are occupied by solicitors – long renowned as having the worst premises of all the professions.

We need only look across the road to the handsome Victorian premises with carriage arch, formerly a Dublin Corporation depot and now occupied by NCAD, to get a taster of what could be achieved with our building. Same vintage, same machine-made brick, same segmental-headed timber sash windows, similar, less detailed moulded reveals, and solid proportions – what on earth is there to be lost? The value of our building would surely inflate considerably in excess of refurbishment cost on the back of such an attractive aspect.

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Simply restored recently.

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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:18 pm

Incidentally, it’s worth zooming in on the truly marvelous quality of the precision bricklaying of the NCAD premises. Look at the refinement of the jointing, the precision cuts at the junctions of the segmental arch, and the free-flowing elegance of the moulded corners. Just superb.

Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby EIA340600 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:41 pm

Perhaps it's time for that crowd from Paris that secretly preserve and improve buildings in the dead of night, to move to our Eblana...God knows they'd have their work cut out for them....
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:44 am

Image

No. 54a Thomas Street BEFORE (cut from a Grahamh photo)




Image

No. 54a Thomas Street AFTER




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PVC detailing



A building on Thomas Street - No. 54a - has had timber sash windows removed and PVC sashes put in. Maybe somebody has a better 'before' picture.

It's not a Protected Structure, though it seems like it was intended to have been one. Confusion probably arose because of its 'a' address number. It's marked with a red asterisk (denoting a Protected Structure) on the relevant development plan map, and it's part of a group of four roughly uniform 4-storey Georgian buildings, the other three of which (Nos. 52, 53 & 54) are protected structures. At the last minute, somebody probably presumed 54a was a gerry-built shack beside the tall Georgians, and so it got left out of the Dev. Plan written statement, which unfortunately takes precedence over the map.

However it's within the September 2009 Architectural Consevation Area, which enjoys the same level of protection in respect of external architectural features of its historic buildings as that of Protected Structures. And the PVC'ing has occured since then - ie. it is open to planning enforcement action (a complaint has been made).
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:04 am

Alas there's nothing that can be done Devin. The windows went in just over a year ago, just a couple of months before the ACA was adopted by councillors, so it's a dead duck :(. I brought it to their attention at the time, but the inconsistency on the RPS collapsed the case. At least a projecting sign to the front was removed. The impact of the windows and air extraction plant on the historic Molyneaux Yard, which both the LAP and ACA highlight, along with other laneways, as being integral to the area, is horrendous.

Of course I asked that the house be added to the RPS. It wasn't.
I asked that the industrial projecting floodlighting be removed as it has no permission and contravenes the Shop Front Guidelines. It wasn't.
And now a new, even more garish fascia has gone up in the past few weeks with no permission. Maybe you could bring that up with them Devin in your dealings.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:00 am

The biggest and most important investment Thomas Street is ever likely to see for at least a decade is being planned right now, with works potentially beginning as early as a few months' time. Yet there is what must be bordering on zero public awareness of it. It is the construction of the Thomas Street - James's Street Quality Bus Corridor, currently at public consultation stage.

At a time of swinging cutbacks, the Thomas Street artery is extremely fortunate to have this funding being directed towards it. As the City Manager John Tierney recently observed as happening on a broader level, the thoroughfare is benefiting from the knock-on effect of public realm improvement funded by national financing of transport infrastructure, that otherwise would be impossible to fund from city coffers at present. This particular project is to be funded entirely by the National Transport Authority.

The QBC scheme presents a marvellous opportunity to implement meaningful public realm improvement on Thomas Street and James's Street. Alas, one fears from observing the plans, this is another engineers’ job, with 'efficiencies' and ‘functionality’ generated, and little or nothing in the way of aesthetic improvement.

It gets off to a poor start up at the fountain at James’s Street, where a large new traffic island is proposed almost outside St. James's Church (former lighting shop), separated from the footpath only by a cycle lane. What is to become of this stranded, functionless new island? Well nothing apparently – it’s just concrete. But who cares, it’s efficient, right? Likewise, a number of very welcome widened and regularised pavements are proposed along the route, including the opening stretch of Meath Street, but what’s to go on them? Indeed, what is the entire public realm design strategy of this plan? There are disconcerting references to ‘improved public lighting’, ‘improved pedestrian crossings with traffic islands’, and a plethora of QBC signs regimentally placed in accordance with the DOE user manual the whole way along the street. Do we have a plan for strict rationalisation of traffic signals, signage, and removal of barriers? Apparently not. The bonkers junction at Bridgefoot Street remains the same. And what of additions: a suite of furniture, planting, pocket spaces, calming measures?

Where are Dublin City Council feeding in to this as guardians of the city? What is their vision for Thomas Street? If this opportunity for public realm improvement is not grasped now, regardless of the extra funding required to realise a gracious vision for the thoroughfare, we will end up with firstly: a botched Stillorgan dual-carriageway ploughing its way through Thomas Street with Germanic efficiency, and secondly: a newly established perception that Thomas Street is ‘done and dusted’ for another half century. This cannot be allowed to happen. If necessary, the plastic wedding cake planter budget for the entire city for the next five years should be diverted into permanent planting along the route, while existing resources and historic lighting stock of the Lighting Department should be deployed en masse. Only 18 months ago the department said they had enough historic stock to line the Thomas Street route (we can only presume it's not dodgy repro rubbish). And the new Public Realm Strategy about to be adpoted by Dublin City Council as part of the new Development Plan for the entire city must stringently dictate terms about what happens here. What’s the point otherwise? We already have the RPA and CIE dancing a jig over the City Fathers – the last thing we need is another player in the field in the form of the NTA. They have to be shown who's boss.

This opportunity has to be grasped. It may be the only one the entire Liberties gets for the foreseeable future.

Some plans can be viewed here.

http://www.dublincity.ie/ROADSANDTRAFFIC/QBNPROJECTOFFICE/Pages/PublicConsultation.aspx
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:34 pm

I predict the loss and damage to great swathes of granite kerbing. No doubt with the excuse that they are to be "reused elsewhere".
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby soulsearcher » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:31 pm

GrahamH wrote:The biggest and most important investment Thomas Street is ever likely to see for at least a decade is being planned right now, with works potentially beginning as early as a few months' time. Yet there is what must be bordering on zero public awareness of it. It is the construction of the Thomas Street - James's Street Quality Bus Corridor, currently at public consultation stage.

(...)

Some plans can be viewed here.

http://www.dublincity.ie/ROADSANDTRAFFIC/QBNPROJECTOFFICE/Pages/PublicConsultation.aspx


I find the overlapping of cycle lanes with off-peak parking bays in some of the street sections quite galling. Of course the engineers are not to blame, its the system that allows them carte blanche to continue to build out-dated road schemes without any recourse to landscape architecture / urban design inputs.

As Graham mentioned, this is perhaps the most golden opportunity the liberties will have to get an integrated traffic and public realm improvement scheme, if only the city officials will see the bigger picture.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:37 pm

since when have the city officals ever seen the bigger picture?
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:11 am

29 is described as a "site" for sale on myhome.

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/29-thomas-street-dublin-8/109129

anyone know why its not on the record of protected structures?
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:31 pm

aj, mmm it's not a PS but it's within the new Thomas Street ACA which gives it a fairly powerful level of protection against any possible demolition proposal.

Section 6.2.8 of the Thomas Street ACA statement (http://www.dublincity.ie/Planning/HeritageConservation/Conservation/Documents/Thomas%20Street%20ACA%20Final%20Document.pdf) says:

"Proposals to demolish buildings of architectural or streetscape merit within the ACA may be considered only in exceptional circumstances where they are supported by a rationale related to the overall enhancement of the urban structure."

Given that the building is of architectural merit and the streetscape in which it sits is the epitome of good urban structure, demolition would be unlikely to be considered (though what our City Council are willing to give permission for seems to know no legislative or logical bounds).

Additionally, under Section 88 of the P&D Act 2000, buildings within ACAs are open to action should owners be letting them fall into disrepair (similar to how a notice can be served on a PS owner under Section 59 of the act compelling them to bring the structure into repair), but not before it's had its associated Area of Special Planning Control designation, which the Thomas Street ACA doesn't have yet.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:51 pm

Image


Glad to see the City Council have handed out a strong refusal for demolition of this - 3075/10
But something will have to be done to arrest the decay in the upper walls that the engineering report was making such hay of, until such time as the building can be rehabilitated.


GrahamH wrote:An aerial view of the Meath Street school from about 1960, with its roof and chimneys intact. What a fine building it was.

Image
Great aerial pic, showing the 19th-century type density that survived in backlands of the city behind streets up to the '60s, before so much clearing out for surface parking. As an example of a backland structure alone, the national school is worth keeping. I hope something can be done with it eventually.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:30 am

Just walking home along Thomas Street in the pelting rain this evening, the level of water gushing down the facade of the vulnerable unprotected Dutch Billy at No. 20 caused the entire rare Doric column of the beautiful 19th century shopfront at No. 19 to collapse into the street, having been left to rot for a number of years :mad:

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No. 19 this time last year.

As with every other building along this stretch, not withstanding the obvious significance of No. 20 and No. 21, there will soon be little historic fabric left intact, and in many cases no evidence upon which to even base the reproduction of destroyed elements such as the above.

It has been aired many times before here, but what has been going on on Thomas Street west and indeed James's Street for the past decade, can only be described as a matter of shame to the city of Dublin. It is utterly symptomatic of the mess we now find ourselves in as a nation. To see an entire collective of perfectly sound historic buildings, the very embodiment of the city, with many so-called Protected Structures, degenerate from fully inhabited urban vernacular streetscape, to the point of dereliction in the space of little more than five years, as a result of what can only be described as State-sponsored neglect, simply beggars belief in a civilised western society. One could go on with this, but let's just get this sorted - now.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:59 am

from today's Irish Times commercial property section:

Image

Some questions immediately spring to mind:

Why would Digital Hub, a state agency tasked with creating a physical nucleus for the nebulous notion of a 'knowledge economy', want to dispose of the key central section of their flagship property holding on the south side of Thomas Street, . . . . . and advertise it as nothing more than a ''Prime Development Site'' ?

Why would an outfit [presumably with access to professional advice] attempt to flog 'a prime development site' at this particular juncture, just as we seem to be in sight of the floor of the deepest property slump in history?

How and when exactly did Dublin City Council become partners in the Digital Hub?


They'll probably try and present this as an opportunity for 'development partners' to come and share in the on-going dynamic success of Digital Hub, but it looks a lot more like the first quiet step in an exit strategy, a sign that the whole concept of a 'Digital Hub' is effectively over and that the agency itself is essentially folding it's tent and slumping away. In the circumstances, is it appropriate to ask ourselves, what is the legacy of the 'Digital Hub'?

Well I suppose we did accumulated a series of bizarre, grandiose and utterly inappropriate development schemes that will amuse and entertain architecture buffs for years to come, but at the same time we've witnessed the shameful deterioration [in state hands] of virtually all but one of the Digital Hub Thomas Street properties [several of them supposedly 'Protected Structures'] that together make up this wonderfully varied and hugely valuable streetscape. Arguably, no street in Dublin is better placed than Thomas Street to illustrate the whole complex heritage of this city, the depth in the record of our built heritage, the drama and tragedy in our history.

Not working with the grain is where this all went wrong in the first instance. That has to be the lesson we take from this. Digital Hub could have been magnificent, it could have been a master class in urban regeneration injecting high-tech energy into a historic location with each gaining from the other in a synergy of renewal, but that wouldn't have left room for all the blundering clueless gobshites that always seem to pop up at the controls in situations like this when golden opportunities seemed to be just about to present themselves.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby tommyt » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:14 am

such is the disdain for all things digital that ad even looks like a letraset and scalpel production!
smug tittering aside you're 100% spot on, g-man.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:04 pm

gunter wrote:from today's Irish Times commercial property section:

Image

Some questions immediately spring to mind:

Why would Digital Hub, a state agency tasked with creating a physical nucleus for the nebulous notion of a 'knowledge economy', want to dispose of the key central section of their flagship property holding on the south side of Thomas Street, . . . . . and advertise it as nothing more than a ''Prime Development Site'' ?

Why would an outfit [presumably with access to professional advice] attempt to flog 'a prime development site' at this particular juncture, just as we seem to be in sight of the floor of the deepest property slump in history?

How and when exactly did Dublin City Council become partners in the Digital Hub?


They'll probably try and present this as an opportunity for 'development partners' to come and share in the on-going dynamic success of Digital Hub, but it looks a lot more like the first quiet step in an exit strategy, a sign that the whole concept of a 'Digital Hub' is effectively over and that the agency itself is essentially folding it's tent and slumping away. In the circumstances, is it appropriate to ask ourselves, what is the legacy of the 'Digital Hub'?

Well I suppose we did accumulated a series of bizarre, grandiose and utterly inappropriate development schemes that will amuse and entertain architecture buffs for years to come, but at the same time we've witnessed the shameful deterioration [in state hands] of virtually all but one of the Digital Hub Thomas Street properties [several of them supposedly 'Protected Structures'] that together make up this wonderfully varied and hugely valuable streetscape. Arguably, no street in Dublin is better placed than Thomas Street to illustrate the whole complex heritage of this city, the depth in the record of our built heritage, the drama and tragedy in our history.

Not working with the grain is where this all went wrong in the first instance. That has to be the lesson we take from this. Digital Hub could have been magnificent, it could have been a master class in urban regeneration injecting high-tech energy into a historic location with each gaining from the other in a synergy of renewal, but that wouldn't have left room for all the blundering clueless gobshites that always seem to pop up at the controls in situations like this when golden opportunities seemed to be just about to present themselves.




there was a massive development proposed for this site a few years back

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... 2&backURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1381839>Search%20Criteria</a>%20>%20<a%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=1729605%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1381839>Search%20Criteria</a>'>Search%20Results</a>

Refused by DCC, and again by ABP

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/219930.htm

also discussed here on Archiseek

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4964

don't you just love the DCC email address on that ad - disposals@dublincity.ie - says it all really.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby soulsearcher » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:34 pm

Originally posted by Gunter:

"Arguably, no street in Dublin is better placed than Thomas Street to illustrate the whole complex heritage of this city, the depth in the record of our built heritage, the drama and tragedy in our history.

Not working with the grain is where this all went wrong in the first instance. That has to be the lesson we take from this..."


Slightly off topic here but as regards 'working with the grain' and learning lessons I would like to draw people's attention to a workshop that is taking place this thursday evening at the Woodquay venue to promote small plot, bottom-up 'townhouse' developments in Dublin City Centre.

See elsewhere on this website:

http://two.archiseek.com/2010/dublin-house-november-18th/
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby urbanisto » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:09 pm

Plans have been lodged for an interesting new addition to Thomas Street incorporating a refurbished existing building at 88 Thomas Street and a modern commercial building to the rear along John Street. John Street runs adjacent to St Augustine and St John's Church. The new addition is very reminicent of the infill development on Essex Street beside the Front Lounge.

The plans can be viewed here 4140/10
http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4140/10&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1406444%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=1758477%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1406444%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E'%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

Have to say the new WYSIWYG controls on the forum are very poor...or is it Google Crome...its caused me problems with other sites.
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1-3 Thomas Court

Postby urbanisto » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:47 pm

Another poorly considered proposal for the site behind GF Handel's on Thomas Street, fronting onto Thomas Court. The scale proposed is excessive and one could only imagine how a bland lump like this would look if constructed. The remainder of the street is low-scale residential and the elevations for the development show just how poorly the proposal integrates with the existing development.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=3786/10&theTabNo=1&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1411712%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=1764894%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1411712%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E'%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

The application, 3786/10, is subject to a request for further information. Thankfully, An Taisce and the DoEHLG are engaged and the Council is asking for a reduced height and a revised elevation. However, it begs the questions: why didn't the developers have a pre-planning meeting with the Council so that these issues could have been raised earlier. The Planner's report is online. Its quite detailed.

This site is part of a wider collection of buildings which are of huge importance to the future of Thomas Street. Much of the site is part of Digital Hub.
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