An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby micky_p » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:16 pm

A client of mine was granted permission for dwelling by her county council. This then got appealed by an Taisce and the Bord refused permission. The refusal though does not actually state the clients name but rather states my name (the agent) as the applicant. How valid is the refusal with this error. Obviously there is judicial route to test this but this is way out of our money league. I'm grasping at straws but I'm really pissed off about this one.

When we lodged initially an Taisce made an observation that we should be refused, on location on site and house design. My client met with the person from an Taisce and we basically changed everything they wanted. Checked this with planner, got the green light. Got our permission from the council then on the last day, an Taisce lodged an appeal with the Bord.

My client had to do site improvement works which cost about 3,000 and the prick from an Taisce knew this, let her go ahead and still objected after we consulted them.
I had outlined all this in our response to the Bord but no joy.

If anyone has any comments or similar experiences then let me know. I would love to get through on as technicality given what an Taisce did on my client but I suspect that won't happen.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:48 pm

Devin - guff removed - ip does not match any other user.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:04 pm

micky_p wrote:A client of mine was granted permission for dwelling by her county council. This then got appealed by an Taisce and the Bord refused permission. The refusal though does not actually state the clients name but rather states my name (the agent) as the applicant. How valid is the refusal with this error. Obviously there is judicial route to test this but this is way out of our money league. I'm grasping at straws but I'm really pissed off about this one.

When we lodged initially an Taisce made an observation that we should be refused, on location on site and house design. My client met with the person from an Taisce and we basically changed everything they wanted. Checked this with planner, got the green light. Got our permission from the council then on the last day, an Taisce lodged an appeal with the Bord.

My client had to do site improvement works which cost about 3,000 and the prick from an Taisce knew this, let her go ahead and still objected after we consulted them.
I had outlined all this in our response to the Bord but no joy.

If anyone has any comments or similar experiences then let me know. I would love to get through on as technicality given what an Taisce did on my client but I suspect that won't happen.



very unlikely. Fair play to you for managing to get a consultation though, such good that it did you. Was it minuted and submitted as part of your submission?. What did the ABP inspector say in the report with regard to the meeting?

Unfortunately you have no recourse - these people act with impunity. I can only suggest that you document your case and complain to all the people on this list:

http://www.antaisce.org/Whoweare/OurPeople/tabid/66/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Copy your complaint to bord@pleanala.ie

Copy your correspondence to John Gormley at minister@environ.ie

Get your client to copy it to her local TD

After you have received no reponse send another letter. Make sure you name the AT member you met.

They will ignore you but if more people complain about ambiguity in the system then hopefully, eventually something will have to be done
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby micky_p » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:27 am

Unfortunately, the meeting was not minuted. The objection to the County Council was signed by the head person from our county so to speak. The person though who advised her of the application and why they should object, is who my client met. I wasn't at the meeting so nothing official.

Still I do intend on making a formal complaint to an Taisce about that members actions. If just to let off some steam, it'll be worth it.

Haven't seen the ABP officers report yet. Only got decision on Monday so maybe I'm jumping to gun getting on here and moaning about it without all my facts first.

Cheers for the response
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby PVC King » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:32 pm

micky_p wrote:
When we lodged initially an Taisce made an observation that we should be refused, on location on site and house design. My client met with the person from an Taisce and we basically changed everything they wanted.


How did the member of AT request the changes you assert that they wanted?

micky_p wrote:My client had to do site improvement works which cost about 3,000 and the prick from an Taisce knew this, let her go ahead and still objected after we consulted them.
I had outlined all this in our response to the Bord but no joy.



After the Citywest saga I'm amazed anyone in the profession commited resources to anything other planning applications in the absence of a full verified planning consent. You can't blame an objector for your client for taking a risk by spending money before they had secured full consent.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby tommyt » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:18 pm

From the info you provided, it's possible to read the file and I think your client's proposal got a well deserved pasting from the Bord Inspector tbh.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:25 pm

tommyt wrote:From the info you provided, it's possible to read the file and I think your client's proposal got a well deserved pasting from the Bord Inspector tbh.


If it is the one in Donegal (0930214)it doesn't even mention consultation with AT - something that the OP states he made clear in response. Michael? help me here - I am seriously in danger of having to agree with An Taisce here and delete my post above.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby saintleger » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:18 pm

If I have found the same file as tommyt, It appears all the appellant did (in original submission, I backtracked to council website, yes I know I have time on my hands) was quote the relevant sections of the Development Plan that the planner should have been abiding by. I don't understand why the LA granted it, as it appears (from the ABP Inspector's report) that the design did not comply with their own county dev plan guidelines on house design, as well as another issue. I'd be more peeved at the LA than the appellant, especially as the site improvements were carried out on foot of a LA request, and had not been requested or suggested by AT.

As a matter of interest, you say you got the planner's okay on your revised plans - did you show them to the AT person as well? Because if they said fine, and then appealed, that would certainly be bad form. If however, you assumed AT would be happy because the planner okayed them, well, there's your trouble.

I can understand you and your client are both frustrated, but AT can hardly be expected to sit on their hands at appeal stage, just because they are aware that your client has put money into site work. To answer your original question, I don't think a clerical error like that is of much use to you. Your client could hardly claim she didn't know the refusal was for her, for example.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby damproof » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:34 pm

Working on the assumption that this is the Donegal case i'm not sure that everything the OP says adds up. Its not AT's MO to have on site meetings and agreements with applicants and, further, it appears from the report that the site works to improve percolation not improve the siting. Maybe the communication between the client and the OP hasn't been the best here. Even though i'm full aware that they can be difficult - it sounds from the info available that AT haven't been unreasonable in this instance.

That report raised another issue for me - relating to public health concerns the inspector summarised the PAs response as "Public Health – housing need established; site drainage works undertaken; no
adverse impact;" what the hell relevance does housing need have to whether the effluent treatment system is going to work or not???
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby tommyt » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:15 pm

I'm not talking about the Donegal case.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby kite » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:33 am

tommyt wrote:From the info you provided, it's possible to read the file and I think your client's proposal got a well deserved pasting from the Bord Inspector tbh.


Agreed.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby ICMS » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:05 pm

i have had the same problem as you, AT lodged an observation during planning, but i never organised meeting with them as i thought their case wasn's strong enough. Turned out that Mayo County Council gave planning permission but on the last day the lodged an appeal to ABP. The Inspector was happy with proposal like county council but they Refused the application because they weren't satisfied that the development would not seriously injure the visual amenities of the vunerable area in which it was (close to scenic route). Wonder what your plan is next? Are u going to apply for planning again making case against?! My local planners said if i were to apply again i would have to make case against the previous decision, but from the planners report there doesnt seem to be a stronger case.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby StephenC » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:31 pm

You could start by trying to address the reason for refusal put up by the Bord. The next time you apply the CoCo planner will have to give consideration to this. You should avail of a pre-planning meeting before you lodge new plans.

Perhaps the site you have in mind just isnt suited to a development. It happens you know.
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Re: An Bord Pleanala Appeal Query

Postby onq » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:43 am

You need to develop a strategy that will make it easier for the planner to say yes.

Visual amenity would seem to be the key here from what little you've posted.

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