Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby CraigFay » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:26 pm

cgcsb wrote:It appears for the Pearse st enterance that the sky bridge and that trinity owned building will be demolished, is this the case?


No. That entrance is here (:
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:30 pm

Pearse Station entrance is on Sandwith Street two streets back from Westland Row
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby missarchi » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:17 pm

Page 17 option PB guess the best option was discounted because of perceived severe traffic impacts... Bailey bridges?
Museum of Ireland against it... hmmm makes you wonder inside city walls... There are many examples of stations incorporating these elements guess they didn't want to follow best practice and urban design.

http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/assets/files/downloads/Environmental_Impact_Statement-EIS_and_Environmental_Impact_Statement_Non-Technical_Summary-NTS/Volume_4%E2%80%93EIS_Appendices/02_Background/A2.5_Vol_16_Section08.pdf

It also seems there is only one station style and that is crossrail.
I like the website it pulls out all the stops.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Frank Taylor » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:35 pm

OisinT wrote:I'm assuming they are not using the ground level power because the BXD will be connecting to the existing luas line.
The Bordeaux system uses ground level power in the centre but the trams switch to overhead in the suburbs. I assume they haven't proposed ground level supply because the cost might sink the project.

Why they didn't use this in the first place is a good question - obviously it's to do with cost.
It was innovative and didn't work well at first. Far better for us to let the French iron out the problems before we use it.

By the time BXD is being constructed (2016?) we may feel we have the money for ground level power.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:28 pm

The Bordeaux system uses ground level power in the centre but the trams switch to overhead in the suburbs. I assume they haven't proposed ground level supply because the cost might sink the project.


So save on the third rail and build a bridge and divert twice as many utilities instead............

The piece on Bordeaux states that the costs of third rail are 300% those of conventional suspended wires; the question is how much does conventional suspended wiring cost? What is the top slice that suspending as invisibly as possible from Grade 1 protected structures in a sensitive area in heritage terms cost? I would not be surprised if the additional costs for a third rail on BX to the top of O'Connell St / Parnell Square were manageable in the context of a direct route being adopted and vastly reduced utility diversion costs and complete elimination of the bridge saving... The project as it stands is another timewarp back to the 'Boom just got Boomier' Era it needs to reflect current fiscal realities.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby GrahamH » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:11 pm

Absolutely. On pain of this project not going ahead, BXD without question must be powered in an alternative manner to overhead cables. There is little point going back into this discussion, having exhausted it at considerable length a couple of years ago, when all the arguments were rehearsed. If we are to develop a high quality city core, it is essential that the protection of the aesthetic qualities of its principal streets and iconic flagship spaces is given the very highest consideration.

This is backwards technology for a city that is looking to achieve international standards of design recognition through the new Development Plan, the new Public Realm Strategy, the application for UNESCO World Heritage status, and the application for European Design Capital 2014. In fact, it utterly flies in the face of the principal objectives all of these strategies for a quality ceremonial city core based on respect for its built heritage, inherent streetscape character and design excellence. It makes a mockery of public investment in such initiatives if there is not a strong and concerted agreement and vision for the city on the part of the capital's planning authority as to what happens to what is effectively the front room of the State, over which it has jurisdiction and moral authority, with regard to the impact of a highly invasive project such as this. The fact it has even got this far, speaks volumes over such a commitment - it should never have got to this stage, even in the late 1990s, never mind the current cabled proposal.

Of course, the Luas BXD route is but a drop in the ocean relative to the collective impact of it, Metro and DART Underground, but the effects of the latter two are at least largely confined to the construction phase. Luas BXD by contrast will have a lasting impact on the city core that will be nigh on impossible to rectify for many years. The decision on its powering at this juncture is also critical in terms of determining the impact of potential future routes, such as along Dame Street, Christchurch Place and Thomas Street. Again, the impact of cabling shall be a major issue long this important route.

The effects of multiple platforms and the impact on public realms generally along BXD, having inspected the plans, is a topic so vast as to make one weary, but these issues can be resolved. It's the cabling that's going to be a considerable uphill struggle to push for change with - something that demands coherent and collective agreement amongst a number of bodies, persons and authorities to help achieve, not to mention real vision at ABP level.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:32 pm

You are totally right the Historical Civic Core of the City is having its largest intervention in many decades through the Luas link up. Clearly a step needs to be taken back to get a sophisticated urbananist solution.

The Bordeaux third rail idea is from an urbanist perspective the only solution that will preserve the most important vistas in the city. In addition the ridding of cars from that area will create an area of real value; the leisure potential is vast.

What needs to be done to acheive it?

Stop thinking like engineers and start thinking about the user experience, as tourists, as commuters and as shoppers; on street Luas from Sandyford to Swords and a third rail from Stephens Green to Parnell Street paid for many times over from the billions saved by ditching a metro that no one knows the cost of and the passenger loadings don't exist to justify; what could be more pleasant than getting on a tram in DCU and getting off into a pristine wire free College Green with no steps, escalators, CCTV cameras etc?

Interconnector will be less user freindly but as a workhorse it is more a system fix than designed to be user freindly...

I am prepared to pay for a submission on BXD if Graham is prepared to write it.... More to the point the interim dividend from my CRH holding will pay for it....
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby GrahamH » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:36 pm

Graham is willing to prepare a submission if PVC King is willing to pay him :D
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:40 pm

Done PM an address for said cheque
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby GrahamH » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:46 pm

Ha. All joking aside, this is a very serious issue which, judging by the level of concern previously expressed amongst many of the engaged Archiseek community over this matter, is something that we need to get active on to make our concerns known. If even half the time previously spent on the last discussion on the Luas Central Corridor thread was diverted into a concise submission or three, we'd be getting somewhere.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby missarchi » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:59 pm

A picture is a thousand words.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby damcw » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:28 am

What are peoples thoughts on the station designs and underground interiors?


Are the stations actually going to look that bland?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby hutton » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:40 am

damcw wrote:What are peoples thoughts on the station designs and underground interiors?


Are the stations actually going to look that bland?


What do you mean? There's plenty of space there to erect cheap advertising :rolleyes:

Not to go totally off tangent, on the Dart line it is remarkable to see how the originally tightly co-ordinated uniform colour scheme has been let totally disappear at stations and along the line - where once there was green with rainbow elements, now its often any colour or simply not painted at all :(
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Bago » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:09 pm

To be fair to them they do capture the essence of the bland, uninspired, directionless, trivial nation we strive to be.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby damcw » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:20 pm

Missarchi has been doing a good job compiling images of metros from around the world, in her/his update today is a station in Moscow:

Image

The full thread is here.


Meanwhile, in Ireland, this is the crap proposed for St. Stephen's Green, which "will be to Dublin what Grand Central is to New York" (according to Martin Cullen in 2005).

Image

Now of course budget is an issue, but I don't believe that an architect was involved in the design above. These are stations that possibly hundreds of thousands of people will go through each day! If we're going to spend billions on their construction, I don't think it's too much to ask for a bit of effort to be put into the interiors.

In London, they are taking the issue of station design seriously for their Crossrail project. There were architecture groups lobbying for a Chief Architect to be appointed to the project. Are there no groups in Ireland looking for something similar? I'm actually shocked at the silence, even on this website, about the renders above. It isn't acceptable!
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:04 pm

Meanwhile, in Ireland, this is the crap proposed for St. Stephen's Green, which "will be to Dublin what Grand Central is to New York" (according to Martin Cullen in 2005).


With that mans record on heritage and treatment of the park in the proposed construction phase of the soon to be abandoned Metro North station at St Green; I'm surprised he didn't sanction a Grand Central Scale overground station on Stephens Green (i.e. the OPW Park) continuing via Fitwilliam Square, Upper Mount Street and Beggers Bush to connect with the Dart line at Havelock Square.

I'd not get carried away by the London images; that image is for Canary Wharf or Heathrow? Very different scale requirement to one city centre station in Dublin; designing a good concourse with architectural input would be no harm on the Interconnector. MN won't be intersecting at Stephens Green for decades if ever.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby pippin101 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:15 pm

PVC King wrote:the soon to be abandoned Metro North station at St Green;
.....
MN won't be intersecting at Stephens Green for decades if ever.

Snap out of it, mate.
Work is starting in 7 months.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:08 pm

Bank costs to swell deficit - ESRI
Wednesday, 14 July 2010 15:33
The Economic and Social Research Institute says the cost of providing extra capital to Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide will have to be included in the national accounts, and will push the government deficit from 11.5% to 19.75% of economic output - by far the highest in the developed world.

The report indicates that 120,000 people will have left Ireland in the two years to next April.

Read more detail on the report here


Meanwhile, the International Monetary Fund has praised the Government's moves to support the banks and tackle the budget deficit, saying they had helped stabilise the economy. Read more on the IMF view here

Spend on training, urges ESRI


http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EVIX


LONDON (ShareCast) -

LONDON (Dow Jones)--A consortium of City investors is close to seizing control of a third of Britain's trains for about GBP1.7 billion, said U.K. newspaper The Times on Sunday citing sources close to the situation.
The investors, 3i Infrastructure PLC (3IN.LN), Morgan Stanley Infrastructure and Star Capital, have teamed up to buy the rolling stock leasing business owned by HSBC Holdings PLC (HSBA.LN).
It owns 4,000 U.K. trains, including several distinctive fleets such as the Intercity 225 trains, that run between London and Edinburgh and the Javelin high-speed commuter trains that provide services between London and Kent.
The business was one of three created and sold off when British rail was broken up in 1990s.
The private consortium has been given a period of exclusivity to finalise the deal and a price of GBP1.7 billion has almost been agreed with the deal expected to close by the end of the month, said the newspaper citing sources close to the situation.
3i, Morgan Stanley and HSBC were not immediately available to comment



Can we take it that the rolling stock would be leased; cutting the costs of the capital project but swelling the ongoing overhead? i.e. That the figures quoted do not pay for the entire project?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Yixian » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:23 am

I'm pretty sure those are just proof of concept renders rather than actual final design renders from the architects.. there was a lot of talk about "iconic" station designs that reflect their region, so fingers crossed we'll see that.

I'm more interested in how they are going to brand all of this now though. I think there's a lot to learn from London here, unification is key. Everything; the luas, DART, buses, bikes, metros - should all come under Transport for Dublin and be unified with a common branidng, smartcard and transport map.

This, together, will be revolutionary for the city.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby hutton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:59 am

Yixian wrote:I'm more interested in how they are going to brand all of this now though. I think there's a lot to learn from London here, unification is key. Everything; the luas, DART, buses, bikes, metros - should all come under Transport for Dublin and be unified with a common brandng, smartcard and transport map.


They achieved common branding in the 80's with both Dart and Dublin Buses carrying green livery. It was only in the mid 90s afaik that DB deviated with separate 'City Swift' branded double deckers and short-hop 'imps'. Latterly luas, bikes have all developed their own colour schemes - while Irish Rail have allowed the visual appearance of Dart stations deteriorate beyond belief :(

Yixian is spot on - a map, smartcard and common branding is the way forward.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby OisinT » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:19 pm

IMO the livery of all dublin transport (minus luas) needs to be updated for the 21st century. The Dart looks 100 years old and the Dublin Bus livery is hideous.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby missarchi » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:22 pm

which photos are the same station by different people?
and what are the differences which one was done first?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby damcw » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:00 pm

Yixian, have you ever been to an Irish train station? Because those renders look like exactly the type of thing that Irish Rail builds :(

http://two.archiseek.com/2010/clongriffin-station-iarnrod-eireann-architects/

Irish Rail have obviously gotten their 'in-house design team' (see above) to do it, because it looks exactly like the same, sterile, cheap materials that they've used in every other station. Form tends to fall waaaaay behind function with them.

Why can't they make a point of teaming up for an Irish architecture firm for an overall design concept. Or have different architects for each station. I just wish they'd do something/anything exciting. It's not a big ask when you're spending billions on infrastructure that is to last over 100 years!

I agree on the branding btw.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby dc3 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:21 pm

Curious - while the stations have large external place names in Irish (especially helpful for Gaeltacht visitors who have forgotten their English) and sometimes in English, nothing whatever says this is a Metro entrance,:D or whatever the thing is eventually called.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:50 pm

dc3 wrote:Curious - while the stations have large external place names in Irish (especially helpful for Gaeltacht visitors who have forgotten their English) and sometimes in English, nothing whatever says this is a Metro entrance,:D or whatever the thing is eventually called.


Yep, pretty awful, but they are just intial renders.

I was reading two recent discussions on Boards about signage and branding.

The Official Language Act brought in new guidelines back in 2008 that require all government bodies to erect fully bilingual signage. The Irish has to come first and be larger than or equal to the English text below it.

Maybe that´s why the renders are in Irish only with English to the side?

Also, the National Transport Agency want to have a single brand (and possibly livery) for all Dublin transport. e.g. DART, Bus, Luas, Metro.

Which sounds great, but will it ever happen?
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