pairc ui chaoimh

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby who_me » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:44 am

rofbp wrote:i think most people understand that this will be done on a limited budget, but that doesn't mean you can't do something decent with the design. it'll just take a little bit of imagination. remember there won't be a lot of major structural work on 3 sides of the ground

you could argue that the current shell has a stark bare quality to it, that could really be set off well if you had a good roof design put over it, with an imaginative lighting system at night perhaps: imagine it reflecting in the river as you come in over the new downstream crossing or drive in lower glanmire road.


I'm astonished that they can even build the 2-tier stand alone for that price. From what I've heard, the price per seat spirals once you add a second tier.

And - I haven't been in Pairc Ui Chaoimh in a while so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - but I've heard the rows are too tight for the existing seating, so they had to cut the tops off the back of the seats to allow leg-room for those behind. That's not going to be easy to fix.

I'm not particularly enthused about what they can do for that price.
who_me
Member
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:15 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby reddy » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:30 pm

It does seem like a questionable decision alright. Why bother spending time and money creating masterplans only to wilfully ignore them at decision time. Why councilors have any say in panning matters I'll never know.

As for the stadium redesign, does any know of the involvement of an architect? Can the GAA be lobbied about that considering the strength of their lobbying to the council?

Thomond Park has a good assessment of its redevelopment here -http://www.thomondpark.ie/news/6259.php - it cost €40m so the GAA may struggle to achieve much with €30m for both the stadium and centre of excellence.
reddy
Member
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:03 am
Location: Dublin

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby pleanala » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:20 pm

reddy wrote:It does seem like a questionable decision alright. Why bother spending time and money creating masterplans only to wilfully ignore them at decision time. Why councilors have any say in panning matters I'll never know.

As for the stadium redesign, does any know of the involvement of an architect? Can the GAA be lobbied about that considering the strength of their lobbying to the council?

Thomond Park has a good assessment of its redevelopment here -http://www.thomondpark.ie/news/6259.php - it cost €40m so the GAA may struggle to achieve much with €30m for both the stadium and centre of excellence.


Unfortunately an Architect hasn't caught sight of the plans - purely an exercise in "sure it'll be grand" engineering. The new two - tier stand will be completely out of context with the rest of the stadium, and the design language envisaged in the Dockland Masterplan and subsequent LAP.

This is after all the same organisation that considers the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick to be top class :rolleyes:...
pleanala
Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 2:13 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby reddy » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:17 pm

pleanala wrote:This is after all the same organisation that considers the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick to be top class :rolleyes:...



Very true. What a disaster that's been. They did have the vision (and the patience) for Croke Park though.
reddy
Member
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:03 am
Location: Dublin

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:29 pm

Today’s Evening Echo reports that the council are to sell the land that was earmarked as vital to the future of the Cork docklands for considerably less than what was paid by the city under the CPO; this just gets worse!!

Very good letter from the Green Party community development spokesman in the Echo as well, that guy has some balls to go against the Cork Mafia (Echo not online, I will scan and post the letter later)
kite
Senior Member
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:42 pm

That letter from today’s Evening Echo. Well said Mr. Murphy.

GAA plan opens up a can of worms

GAA legend Jimmy Barry Murphy (Evening Echo June 12) maintains that anyone that speaks out against the proposed ‘land grab’ by the GAA of a site acquired by Cork City Council under a compulsory purchase order for a public park as “narrow minded”. That statement is narrow-minded in itself.

In order for each of us to have access to infrastructure, in this case a public park identified as crucial for the development of the largest development project ever proposed in Cork Docklands, it is sometimes necessary that local authorities acquire land through the instrument of a Compulsory Purchase Order (CPO).

Local Authorities use their powers of compulsory acquisition of land through CPOs which are statutory in nature to ensure that all necessary lands are available to them for proper and sustainable development within their functional area.

The Land Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845 is the foundation legislation in relation to CPOs. This law seeks to balance the right of the common good i.e. infrastructure and the right of individuals to own their own land.
The Constitution of Ireland, 1937 recognises and appreciates that people have a right to own their own land however this must be balanced in a social context for the common good.

When the CPO of the Showground's site was proposed, Cork City Council engaged in extensive discussions with members of the public, designs for the public park were drawn up to complement the existing master plan for the entire Docklands project, this master plan was put in place at considerable expense to the Irish taxpayer over a 10 year period.

An oral hearing by An Bord Pleanala into a CPO is akin to planning and local governance Court; evidence is presented by a Local Authority to make a case for removing the title and enjoyment of land from a landowner for the ‘common good’.

In the case of the land in question; Cork City Council successfully argued that the land was essential to provide a public park for all the citizens of Cork.
To now use the acquired land for any other purpose while the ink is still wet on the CPO could open a legal can of worms.

It is unusual for the Green Party to be in agreement with the current Cork city manager and his senior planners. In this instance, however, Joe Gavin has our full support in his efforts to retain the land for the enjoyment of all the people of Cork.
Mr. Gavin has bent over backwards to facilitate the GAA; he has offered to sell them enough land to allow for the redevelopment of Pairc Ui Chaoimh, he has offered to donate land for training pitches in the Western suburbs of the city. Other sporting codes must be looking on in envy, wishing they would be facilitated in such a generous manner.

Mick Murphy, Green Party Spokesperson on Community Development.
kite
Senior Member
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby who_me » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:55 pm

Thanks for posting that, kite. I'd love to see it challenged.
who_me
Member
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:15 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby browser » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:46 am

Whilst I agree with much of what is said above I read during the week that the €40m was for phase 1 (a new stand and internal improvements) but that the whole project was a 10 year, €90m project. That gave me some comfort that this might be following more the Croke Park, bit by bit, model.

I have been posting on this site for years about the need for a municipal stadium in Cork. I think this will ultimately achieve that. Economics means the GAA will open it to all comers - the Croke Park experience shows that. Happily General Frank-o will also have retired by the time any of this is built.

I would love if it was a municipal, local authority owned facility but that can't happen the way local government is funded in Ireland. I fully agree the City Council should seek top dollar for it. I also see a good basis for a challenge by the old Showgrounds owners.

All in all though everything remains on target for watching Cork City play Real Madrid in the CL semi final of 2020 down in the docklands (well assuming Madrid finish in the top 4 of La Liga in 2019 - that's the only potential fly in the ointment as I see it).
browser
Member
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:45 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby who_me » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:54 am

Appreciate the correction on the stadium budget, that sounds a lot better; though it still seems low for a second tier, IMO.

Likewise, I'd much rather see them build one stand really well, with scope to repeat that design on the far side or (ideally) all around the ground over time; rather than a mediocre upgrade now.

I'd absolutely love to see a quality shared stadium in Cork - it'd lead to lots of crossing over of fans. I've only been to a couple of games in PuC, and never been to a Cork City game; but if they shared a decent (clean!) modern stadium with Munster I'd happily attend all 3.

p.s. any chance of tickets for the CL final? Ah, g'wan!

p.p.s. I think I read on a thread here a couple of years back about the public gallery at a council meeting being cleared, when this issue was being discussed. Am I mis-remembering?
who_me
Member
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:15 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:46 am

browser wrote:Whilst I agree with much of what is said above I read during the week that the €40m was for phase 1 (a new stand and internal improvements) but that the whole project was a 10 year, €90m project. That gave me some comfort that this might be following more the Croke Park, bit by bit, model.



).


Hi browser, a regeneration amount of 20 million was the figure up to the week of the vote by Cork city council. In the days running up to the vote that figure magically increased to 30 million.

Both the above figures were mentioned in reports put before councillors, either 20 or 30 million was mentioned in any news article I read; I would be genuinely interested to see any link to any forum where a figure of 90 million was mentioned?
kite
Senior Member
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:23 pm

who_me wrote:I'm astonished that they can even build the 2-tier stand alone for that price. From what I've heard, the price per seat spirals once you add a second tier.

And - I haven't been in Pairc Ui Chaoimh in a while so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - but I've heard the rows are too tight for the existing seating, so they had to cut the tops off the back of the seats to allow leg-room for those behind. That's not going to be easy to fix.

I'm not particularly enthused about what they can do for that price.


the budget figure of 30 million is certainly a worry. i didn't know 40 million was the price for thomond park, though that did involve 2 new stands and the purchase of a terrace of houses.

the "new" seats are appalling. they are one of the reasons i would be concerned about the GAA's quality control regarding a new design: they put the seats in the uncovered stand, saw they were terrible, cut off the tops, then installed the same type of seats (with cut off tops!) in the covered stand. that indicated that they couldn't care less about comfort of fans.

kite wrote:Hi browser, a regeneration amount of 20 million was the figure up to the week of the vote by Cork city council. In the days running up to the vote that figure magically increased to 30 million.

Both the above figures were mentioned in reports put before councillors, either 20 or 30 million was mentioned in any news article I read; I would be genuinely interested to see any link to any forum where a figure of 90 million was mentioned?


i've looked online and couldn't find a figure higher than 30 million anywhere. it seems impossible to do any decent job for that kind of money
rofbp
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:44 pm
Location: cork

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:05 pm

there is a very long thread on the same topic on the people's republic of cork forum, and as you can imagine, the general consensus there is the gaa county board are right and should get to build whatever they want, and the city council are being unreasonable and obstructive. the necessity for a park is treated derisively. one of the few posters there who has the bigger issues in mind is linked to below:

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/~peoplesr/forums//showpost.php?p=3359017&postcount=105

EDIT:
found a post further on on that PRC thread that quoted an article in irish independent by colm keyes that said the project has a 50 million pricetag. (thats from after the council vote too!)
rofbp
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:44 pm
Location: cork

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby browser » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:26 pm

kite wrote:Hi browser, a regeneration amount of 20 million was the figure up to the week of the vote by Cork city council. In the days running up to the vote that figure magically increased to 30 million.

Both the above figures were mentioned in reports put before councillors, either 20 or 30 million was mentioned in any news article I read; I would be genuinely interested to see any link to any forum where a figure of 90 million was mentioned?


Hi Kite,

I've tried and tried and can't find where i read this - but I am 100% certain I did. Nearest I could find from googling was Sunday Tribune article pasted below. It at least mentions €90m. The other article was more specific though.

That said, the various articles paint a picture of the county board having no real idea what they will do at all. I suspect they will eventually do it right as the only way to make this a success is to differentiate the stadium from the half assed competitors in Thurles, Killarney and Limerick (x 2 - one of which is, in fairness, two thirds assed! - I think the praise I've read for Thomand is way over the top though. Its functional at best). The county board, despite their best efforts, will probably ultimately build a fine stadium complete with necessary bells and whistles. Also their current position that there will be no "foreign games" in the new PuC will inevitably fall away for commercial reasons.

I would however agree with those who cannot understand why we need to cross our fingers on this in the first place. The need for proper design, multi sport use, etc should all have been written into the t&c's for the sale.

Fears stadium rebuild will hit plans for park
John Downes, News Investigations Correspondent

Pairc Ui Chaoimh: proposalCork city councillors are due to vote tomorrow on whether to give the green light to controversial plans for a €90m redevelopment of the city's Páirc Uí Chaoimh stadium, involving the sale of several acres of council-owned land to the local GAA board.

However, concerns have been raised by some local representatives about the impact of the sale of the lands on the council's proposal to develop a park in the nearby docklands area.


Under plans put forward by the local GAA board, Páirc Uí Chaoimh will be refurbished to include full-sized all-weather floodlit pitches, a new two-tiered stand which will increase the stadium's capacity to around 50,000, and a GAA centre of excellence. It is expected to cost up to €90m to complete.

However, the local GAA says it needs 6.8 acres of land adjacent to the stadium, which was purchased by way of a compulsory purchase order by the council, to allow it to provide the centre of excellence. It argues that the project will not be viable unless the sale of the lands is sanctioned at tomorrow's meeting.

But local Fine Gael councillor Des Cahill told the Sunday Tribune that he had yet to be convinced why the GAA needed the lands. He said they were being earmarked by the GAA for the provision of a training pitch, with most of the centre of excellence facilities located within the stadium itself.

"The city have signed a contract commissioning the design of the new Marina Park. When this design is completed, then we will be able to see exactly what we are sacrificing for an all-weather training pitch and more importantly the impact that this pitch will have on this proposed new public park," he said.
browser
Member
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:45 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:55 pm

Many thanks for that browser.
Some that voted in favour of the 'proposal' to sell are now seeking clarifaction on the matter in city hall. Expect some further developments over the next week.
kite
Senior Member
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:22 pm

Classic politician ploy?! Vote one way after all the lobbying, issue a stalling/equivocal statement, see which way the wind is blowing, then annouce loudly and proudly you are reversing position...because it's what the people want. Have any of them any backbone....!?
Angry Rebel
Member
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:57 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby jungle » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:38 am

In fairness, kite's earlier post, said that Cahill was one of those to vote against when the original motion was put.

I notice that Cllr Sean Martin was on the front-page of Monday's Echo calling for PuC to be made available to all sports. That would be the same Sean Martin who voted against it being a condition of the land transfer.

Now that is a truly two-faced politician.
jungle
Member
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:11 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:31 am

jungle wrote:In fairness, kite's earlier post, said that Cahill was one of those to vote against when the original motion was put.

I notice that Cllr Sean Martin was on the front-page of Monday's Echo calling for PuC to be made available to all sports. That would be the same Sean Martin who voted against it being a condition of the land transfer.

Now that is a truly two-faced politician.


Yep, the same Sean Martin that sat in council for years congratulating the officials and manager for the great docklands proposal, the same Sean that is now reported in the Echo as saying he felt the docklands project was never a runner anyway!!

The County Board of the GAA were not long kicking him back into his box last night by stating that opening PuC to other sports would not happen.(Front page Evening Echo)
kite
Senior Member
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby pleanala » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:20 pm

kite wrote:Yep, the same Sean Martin that sat in council for years congratulating the officials and manager for the great docklands proposal, the same Sean that is now reported in the Echo as saying he felt the docklands project was never a runner anyway!!



To paraphrase - "Irish people don't want to live in apartments anyway". If he opened his eyes he'd realise that the City Centre was packed to the rafters with young europeans who are working in Cork due to the ongoing expansion of multi-lingual contact centres in the City. Anyone trying to get a decent apartment in town will be aware of this.

When the commercial end of the Docklands is underway, a large part of it will undoubtedly be multi-lingual contact centres and related enterprise, and the 20,000 residents won't be long following. Nobody said the 20,000 were going to be exclusively Irish! These people will need recreational space a lot more than some "centre of excellence":rolleyes:
pleanala
Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 2:13 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby who_me » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:41 pm

jungle wrote:In fairness, kite's earlier post, said that Cahill was one of those to vote against when the original motion was put.

I notice that Cllr Sean Martin was on the front-page of Monday's Echo calling for PuC to be made available to all sports. That would be the same Sean Martin who voted against it being a condition of the land transfer.

Now that is a truly two-faced politician.


That's what I really thought was galling, when I saw that headline.

The council were in a position to demand multi-sport usage, or tell the GAA to go and jump. Instead, they caved to the GAA's demand for more land for the centre of excellence and caved again in not requiring multi-sports usage as a precondition.

What they could have mandated, now they're meekly begging for in the papers. :mad:

The way they're going, next thing they'll be paying the GAA to take the land from them.
who_me
Member
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:15 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:54 pm

who_me wrote:The way they're going, next thing they'll be paying the GAA to take the land from them.


that isn't going to be far from reality: the market price now will be less than the price the city council paid for the showgrounds initially
rofbp
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:44 pm
Location: cork

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:14 am

Looks like matters may come to a head next Monday.
Well done Mr. O’Leary for asking the tough questions.:)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/councillors-may-face-legal-action-over-gaa-vote-123311.html
kite
Senior Member
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby Leesider » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:25 pm

I am not too sure where I stand on this one, the more I look at it the more I veer towards Joe Gavin's point of view.

One question I have though is that before the CPO of the showgrounds I was under the presumption that a good junk of this land was automatically going to the GAA, nowhere did I read that it might not because of the public park. Anyone else have this impression? Or was I relying too much on local media to highlight this fact for me??

There seems to be 2 strands of thought on this, one it is only 4 acres what is the big deal when the park will be over 20 acres still and the other that it is needed for the park. I would be happy to give the GAA the land for free if it was open to other sports and no centre of excellence (that can go on the straight rd) but selling land that was CPO'd for a park is madness when the centre of excellence can go anywhere and it won't be opened up.

Big Cork GAA fan but I hate the backwardness of the CCC.
Leesider
Member
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:38 pm
Location: Back on Leeside

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby who_me » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Leesider wrote:Big Cork GAA fan but I hate the backwardness of the CCC.


Can't really say I'm a big GAA fan myself (not anti-GAA at all, just not a regular fan) - and I have to admit that Cork GAA have been the most successful sporting organisation by far in the city and county, both on and off the field.

In this case, there's the potential for a mutually beneficial agreement: Cork GAA have a stadium, and need land to modernise it and add facilities. Cork City Council have land, and want a multi-sport stadium in the city. Instead of both sides compromising a little, but benefitting, the CCC just capitulated completely - to the degree their plans for a park are compromised, it'll cost them money, and it may now land them in legal trouble.

On another note - and I really hope I'm just being a crazy conspiracy theorist here - I hope if the land is sold to the GAA for the centre of excellence, that a permanent centre is actually built there. And it's not just a plan to acquire land adjacent to the stadium for the long term - remember the GAA wanted to build a hotel next to the stadium too, if memory serves.
who_me
Member
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:15 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:54 pm

Leesider wrote:I am not too sure where I stand on this one, the more I look at it the more I veer towards Joe Gavin's point of view.

One question I have though is that before the CPO of the showgrounds I was under the presumption that a good junk of this land was automatically going to the GAA, nowhere did I read that it might not because of the public park. Anyone else have this impression? Or was I relying too much on local media to highlight this fact for me??...............

.


2.3 acres was always on offer to the GAA for the redevelopment of PuC during the CPO process.
I am a big GAA fan myself; but this county board land grab is a step too far for me.
Good luck to Cllr. O'Leary next Monday.
kite
Senior Member
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:38 pm

was looking at scott tallon walker's website, after reading a hotel of theirs was nominated for world architecture award.
they had this image of a plan for the atlantic quarter in the docklands, and someone had stuck 2 new roofs on Pairc Ui Chaoimh!
what do you think?
obviously, the GAA say they are putting a 2 tier stand on the southern side, but same roof could be applied?
practical?
cost?
opinions?
rofbp
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:44 pm
Location: cork

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland