pairc ui chaoimh

pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:02 pm

i considered putting this in the docklands thread, because of its location, but i decided it warranted a thread on its own because:
  • it is a renovation of an existing building rather than a new build
  • it might be the only thing that will actually be developed in the docklands for the next 12-18 months
  • when finished it will be the biggest building, with arguably the most cultural significance, in the city
  • it stand on a very prominent site on the river, and will be even more visible once the bridge is built from tivoli across to the docklands

the examiner had an article yesterday regarding the sale of part of the showgrounds to cork county gaa board:
citys-gaa-stadium-revamp-a-step-closer
unfortunately the online article doesn't include the site diagram, but i've tried to attach a scan

it seems that they plan to demolish the covered stand and redevelop it into a 2 tier stand, while renovating the remaining stand and the 2 existing terraces, while building a second pitch on the south side of the existing stadium.

i think most people would agree that the stadium is run-down, ugly and dangerous as it currently stands, but can a renovation and partial rebuild turn a sow's ear into a silk purse?

i know i'd like to see a stand similar to the stands at the redeveloped thomond park built, with a matching roof placed over a renovated (previously) uncovered stand. is that possible, or will the gaa involve any architects? will they slap an engineer's roof on it and be happy with that?
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:16 pm

managed to attach a small version of the plan.

its plain that the second pitch is quite an imposition on whatever the city council had planned for the enlarged public park encompassing the old showgrounds and the atlantic pond.

anyone here involved in landscaping who can suggest a better alternative?
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby Tayto » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:23 pm

rofbp wrote:it stands on a very prominent site on the river, and will be even more visible once the bridge is built from tivoli across to the docklands

is that possible, or will the gaa involve any architects? will they slap an engineer's roof on it and be happy with that?


Considering the floods around that area earlier this year, I would have thought that a swimming pool might be a better bet for a site by de Banks.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby lauder » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:34 pm

This attitude towards this project from the council really annoys me.

Cork is crying out for a first class football/rugby stadium. Now that the CC is effectively giving the GAA the land from free, they could have at least insisted that the venue would be opened up to Munster/Cork City FC etc. when required.

It could have been a leading light but instead the inward looking GAA attitude prevails. Given the views of the Cork County GAA board (which are only echoed by their NI brethren) the chances of this stadium being "opened-up" under other circumstances.

A victory for GAA but a sad day for sport in the city.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby jungle » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:33 am

A proposal to make it multi-disciplinary was put before the council in 1988, but was defeated by a combination of a GAA vote (all FF councillors voted against with the exception of Gary O'Flynn who didn't vote) and local councillors worried about the haranguing they'd get about traffic arrangements (Five of the six in the South-East ward voted against, the only exception being Laura McGonigle (FG) who didn't vote).

There's an election under the bridge since then, but of those councillors who retained their seat, the votes were

Tim Brosnan (FF) Against
Chris O'Leary (Green) Against
Denis O'Flynn (Lab) Against
Terry Shannon (FF) Against
Jim Corr (FG) Against
Seán Martin (FF) Against
Mary Shields (FF) Against
Michael Ahern (Lab) Against
John Buttimer (FG) Against

Brian Bermingham (FG) Did Not Vote
John Kelleher (Lab) Did Not Vote
Dara Murphy (FG) Did Not Vote
Patricia Gosch (FG) Did Not Vote
Laura McGonigle (FG) Did Not Vote
Fiona Kerins (SF) Did Not Vote

Mick Barry (Soc) For
Catherine Clancy (Lab) For
Jonathan O'Brien (SF) For
David McCarthy (Ind) For
Michael O’Connell (Lab) For
Lorraine Kingston (Lab) For

Which is all marginally tighter now, not that it makes a difference.

The real problem is the councillors in the South-East ward. People will remember who voted for increased traffic disruption and punish them, but few would remember who voted against. At the local elections, I raised this with some of the councillors who voted against (I live at the other end of the LEA towards St Finnbarr's Hospital) and they seemed genuinely surprised to be asked about it. You can be damn sure if they voted for and people in Blackrock experienced more traffic congestion that they would have been asked.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby green_jesus » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:37 pm

Why do they need a second pitch beside it? I thought the surrounding area was going to be made into a public park?

If they really need an all weather pitch cant they just put it up the road in the blackrock or Mahon gaa grounds where they have lots of spare land.

It should be made open to all sports and aesthetically speaking I really would love to see a thomond park style stadium.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby reddy » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:47 pm

It'd be great if they did something nice here - not a botch job by some engineers like the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick, which looks like a shambles compared to its IRFU neighbour.

The Council need to apply some pressure to the GAA to hire an architect and a decent one at that. An architect will probably save them money in the long run and a nice clean, simple design doesn't need to be much more expensive than the bog standard we often see.

They've shown great vision in Croke Park - let's have the same in the grounds and club facilities around the country.

Eduardo Arroyo did this beautiful stadium in spain - only 10,000 seats but great thought put into the design.

Image
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:42 pm

while i appreciate your points regarding opening gaa grounds to other sports, i'd like to return to the issue of what they build.

i share the concerns of many posters that the gaa will basically go with an engineering solution only.

as i see it, and as i pointed out on the lansdowne road thread, a stadium has only 3 basic functions:
  • every fan should have a good view
  • every fan should be safe
  • ideally the design should foster a good atmosphere at the game.

i would say that thomond park meets those objectives and simultaneously a beautiful design. the steep pitch of the stands means everyone is relatively close to the action, while the curving design means most of the seats are near the centre of the field. the old terraces at either end have been retained, which enhances the atmosphere.

if three 35-year-old sides are retained, alongside one brand new stand, the job of making the stadium seem one unified design seems harder to me. therefore, i feel roofing the current uncovered stand in a similar manner to the new stand seems an important element in achieving a coherent design. i think i saw one of the models for the norman foster towers on the old ford depot had put a roof on the uncovered stand. anyone have a picture?

i would also prefer if any floodlights are integrated into the roof rather than placed on pylons in the corners

santiago calatrava designed new roofs for the old olympic stadium in athens for the 2004 olympics. they look fairly impressive!

with regards to the renovation of the other 3 sides, i suppose safety and comfort concerns take precedent:
the tunnels underneath are dark, dangerous in a crowd, lacking in facilities like toilets and lack commercial opportunities like shops, restaurants, bars and concessions stands.

the entrances onto the terraces/stand are at the bottom of the slope, which makes exiting at the end dangerous, as everyone is pushing down the steps. i thing the answer to these problems is to:

1. blow out the back wall of the tunnels and align the new areas beneath the stand/terrace with the outer concrete buttresses. this would give space for all the missing facilities mentioned above, while making below the terrace/stand a lighter more comfortable and safer place to mingle.

2. add ramps/stairs similar to croke park hogan/canal/cusack to allow egress off the back of the terrace at the end of the game. these could be closed before the game to ensure an entering crowd doesn't crush forward before the match.

3 spread the turnstiles along all the length of each stand/terrace rather than the current situation where they are concentrated in the corners, which makes crushes more likely before each match.

shouldn't form follow these functions?
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:47 pm

reddy wrote:Eduardo Arroyo did this beautiful stadium in spain - only 10,000 seats but great thought put into the design.


i like that a lot, and i would put up with floodlights in the corners if they looked like that!
the stadium looks class at night too:
Image
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:51 pm

one concern i would have is the "15 metre circulation" on the plan above, and how this would affect the line of the old railway.
if this was ever to be used for a luas-type system, how would these interact. is the current uncovered stand built right on the line of that old railway? would the city council retain access/ownership of the line? who owns the line currently? is there a right of way under the stand?
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby Yossarian » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:59 pm

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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:12 am

Council voted in favour of this proposal yesterday. A councillor noted the action from the GAA was the most intense and prolonged lobbying he had ever seen.

I think this is disgraceful for the following:

  • Going against specific advice of both City Manager and senior planners. Look where that kind of thing got us during the Tiger years.
  • Handing over land the City Council had to CPO at cost to the city to a private organisation
  • GAA say the training facility had to be at the Páirc. Why? What's wrong with having it in another location? Nothing. It's a vanity.
  • City funds are effectively being used for the benefit of GAA fans only. If this was to be a municipal stadium it would have changed the dynamics of it altogether and would have been something everyone could get behind
  • GAA spokesman said having this facility and the stadium at the heart of the new Marina Park would be a great addition. He could be right, but I guarantee you in ten years time when all of this is done (I'm being optimistic! :rolleyes:) the stadium will be locked up and inaccessible, as will the training facility. Some centrepiece.


- in the same vein, and as something of a backup to the last point above, I was out for a walk with my daughter on Sunday morning, doing my usual route, which takes me down the Marina and through the Atlantic pond before heading for home. Halfway down the Marina, I was stopped at a barrier by a Garda and some private security guys. Ticket checkpoint. This is at 11.00 for a 14.00 match, and they've decided to cordon off a large chunk of Blackrock/Ballintemple. I was quizzed for a while before I finally convinced the Garda that I and my 12 month old baby were not in fact going to the GAA match. He was slightly incredulous that I wasn't going to it, and in fact asked "Where are you going?!". As I walked through the barrier his parting comment was "Be careful". I was on the lookout for rabid Kerry fans looking to steal my child from that point onwards....
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:Council voted in favour of this proposal yesterday. A councillor noted the action from the GAA was the most intense and prolonged lobbying he had ever seen.

I think this is disgraceful for the following:

  • Going against specific advice of both City Manager and senior planners. Look where that kind of thing got us during the Tiger years.
  • Handing over land the City Council had to CPO at cost to the city to a private organisation
  • GAA say the training facility had to be at the Páirc. Why? What's wrong with having it in another location? Nothing. It's a vanity.
  • City funds are effectively being used for the benefit of GAA fans only. If this was to be a municipal stadium it would have changed the dynamics of it altogether and would have been something everyone could get behind
  • GAA spokesman said having this facility and the stadium at the heart of the new Marina Park would be a great addition. He could be right, but I guarantee you in ten years time when all of this is done (I'm being optimistic! :rolleyes:) the stadium will be locked up and inaccessible, as will the training facility. Some centrepiece.

- in the same vein, and as something of a backup to the last point above, I was out for a walk with my daughter on Sunday morning, doing my usual route, which takes me down the Marina and through the Atlantic pond before heading for home. Halfway down the Marina, I was stopped at a barrier by a Garda and some private security guys. Ticket checkpoint. This is at 11.00 for a 14.00 match, and they've decided to cordon off a large chunk of Blackrock/Ballintemple. I was quizzed for a while before I finally convinced the Garda that I and my 12 month old baby were not in fact going to the GAA match. He was slightly incredulous that I wasn't going to it, and in fact asked "Where are you going?!". As I walked through the barrier his parting comment was "Be careful". I was on the lookout for rabid Kerry fans looking to steal my child from that point onwards....


I agree with you 100%.
The GAA have shown themselves to be ruthless land grabbers.
What now for the docklands project project that is 10 years in the making?
I really hope the former owners of the showgrounds site that were turfed out against their will for the 'common good' sue the councillors that went against professional advice and agreed to sell the land.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:56 pm

the gaa's response to the news

interesting that the evening echo focused on the lobbying effort by the gaa in the run up to the vote. (you can look at the front page in a link on the right side of the page, though this will change with tomorrows edition)

personally, i agree with the previous 2 posters: there is no justification for a "centre of excellence" in the showgrounds. the only reason for the gaa to have a pitch next to pairc ui chaoimh is as a warm up area for matches in pairc ui chaoimh itself. with pitches available at blackrock, st. michael's and ballinlough gaa clubs, the camogie board's ground and pairc ui rinn, any of these could be used by teams as warm up sites, and they can be escorted to the ground then, removing the only plausible reason for a second pitch there. using a pitch for warm up for 3-4 afternoons a year is a complete waste of resources.

a wild idea: do the gaa want to develop a stadium of 4000-5000 capacity stadium near pairc ui chaoimh in order to free up the sale of pairc ui rinn for residential development? pie in the sky idea?

why would anyone accept the gaa's argument that the refurbishment of pairc ui chaoimh cannot go ahead without the second pitch? where else would the build a stadium? how would they afford a complete new build of 50000 seater, when most of the current stadium will be remaining in place. the pairc ui chaoimh refurbishment would have proceeded whether the land for the second pitch was available or not.


It would seem to me that a training centre could be located anywhere near the city, and may make more sense to be located on the outskirts rather than somewhere so central.

the proposed pitch will ruin the new park in the showgrounds, but i disagree with the city council that this decision puts the dockland redevelopment in jeopardy: one compromised park design should not have a deterrent effect on developments worth billions: the economic situation is the dominant factor here.

of course the second pitch could be turned down at the planning stage

overall, a poor day for the docklands, but not fatal. strong design principles must be insisted upon by the city council for the stadium design, to mitigate for a compromised park design, no stand should be allowed for the second pitch. on the positive side, at least the gaa have the wherewithall and the drive to refurbish the eyesore that is pairc ui chaoimh.

sorry for the rambling post again!
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby demolition man » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:35 am

Ideally I would love if they went with a similar design to the stands at SC Braga's stadium.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:45 am

rofbp wrote:the gaa's response to the news

interesting that the evening echo focused on the lobbying effort by the gaa in the run up to the vote. (you can look at the front page in a link on the right side of the page, though this will change with tomorrows edition)



sorry for the rambling post again!


Yes, I read the Echo last night, had to take a second look to make sure I read it right; lobbying of councillors like never happened before in Cork, the city manager claiming to have been abused in the street for recommending rejection of the GAA plan!!

Fair play to the 11 councillors that stood up to the pressure and voted against the sale to the GAA. Particular kudos goes to the Green Party chairman Dan Boyle for making his opposition to the sale known, without a sitting councillor on the council the easiest thing for him to do would have been to keep quiet on the matter.

The saying that ‘the oppressed becomes the worst type of aggressor’ rings true in this instance; my son is quitting the GAA after reading of the abuse of the city manager stating “the Black and Tans will never be gone as long as the GAA behave in this manner”
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby jungle » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:57 am

Is the list of how various councillors voted available yet? I know all FF councillors voted for and Mick Barry and Ted Tynan voted against, but have no more information than that.

It's something I will be remembering for future dealings with councillors.

Unfortunately, we get to see the GAA putting their vanity ahead of the needs of the city. With up to 20,000 apartment dwellers expected to be living in the docklands in 20 years time, a park is vital. As mentioned by another poster, the Centre of Excellence could have gone anywhere. And considering the dilapidated stated of Páirc Uí Chaoímh, I don't trust the GAA to even maintain the place properly.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:13 am

jungle wrote:Is the list of how various councillors voted available yet? I know all FF councillors voted for and Mick Barry and Ted Tynan voted against, but have no more information than that.

It's something I will be remembering for future dealings with councillors.

Unfortunately, we get to see the GAA putting their vanity ahead of the needs of the city. With up to 20,000 apartment dwellers expected to be living in the docklands in 20 years time, a park is vital. As mentioned by another poster, the Centre of Excellence could have gone anywhere. And considering the dilapidated stated of Páirc Uí Chaoímh, I don't trust the GAA to even maintain the place properly.


How they voted;

For the GAA;

John Kelleher (LAB)
Dara Murphy (FG)
Tim Brosnan (FF)
Ken O’Flynn (FF)
Tomas Gould (SF)
Tony Fitzgearld (FF)
Laura McGonigle (FG)
Terry Shannon (FF)
Kieran McCarthy (IND)
Emmet O’Halloran (FG)
Sean Martin (FF)
Fiona Keirns (SF)
John Buttimer (FG)
Mary Shields (FF)
Michael Ahern (Lab)
Ger Gibbons (Lab)
Mick Finn (IND)

For the city;

Ted Tynan (WP)
Mick Barry (SP)
Catherine Clancy (Lab)
Patricia Gosch (FG)
Jonathan O’Brien (SF)
Michael O’Connell (Lab)
Des Cahill (FG)
Denis O’Flynn (Lab)
Chris O’Leary (IND)
Jim Corr (FG)
Lorriane Kingston (Lab)

3 absent Bermingham (FG), Cremin (SF), and McCarthy (IND)
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby who_me » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:15 pm

I think people are being a bit too optimistic about plans for the stadium's redevelopment. The budget is reportedly 30m euros, for a 60K all seater stadium & excellence centre. In comparison to 400m+ for a 50K all seater (Aviva stadium).
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:27 pm

What really amazes me is that councillors that are embedded in the GAA were allowed to vote on the matter. Surely there would be a conflict of interest?

:mad:This vote really needs to be challenged in court.
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby green_jesus » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:57 pm

Such a shame that the council voted the way it did.

Pairc Ui Chaoimh would have looked fantastic surrounded by the proposed park.

Image

I had visions of the Olympiapark, Munich on a smaller scale.

Image

Image

Image

Oh well maybe in another 40 years. :rolleyes:
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:40 pm

who_me wrote:I think people are being a bit too optimistic about plans for the stadium's redevelopment. The budget is reportedly 30m euros, for a 60K all seater stadium & excellence centre. In comparison to 400m+ for a 50K all seater (Aviva stadium).


i think most people understand that this will be done on a limited budget, but that doesn't mean you can't do something decent with the design. it'll just take a little bit of imagination. remember there won't be a lot of major structural work on 3 sides of the ground

you could argue that the current shell has a stark bare quality to it, that could really be set off well if you had a good roof design put over it, with an imaginative lighting system at night perhaps: imagine it reflecting in the river as you come in over the new downstream crossing or drive in lower glanmire road.

if stark strong lines are what you are looking for, that suggestion by Demolition man above fits the bill, though it might look a bit unbalanced on one side of the pitch. are the wires part of the floodlighting system? pretty neat if they are!
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:57 pm

i visited berlin last year, and the olympic stadium was completely renovated for the world cup in 2006. the roof there is sleek and simple, and the opening at one end is elegant.

their approach to concession stands was also interesting: once through the turnstiles, the area around the stadium is very large, almost park like. the shops/drinks stalls/fast food are all in pods around the sides, and are not part of the original stadium at all. i'll post photos later
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby rofbp » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:12 pm

here are 2 pics of berlin olympicstadion
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Re: pairc ui chaoimh

Postby kite » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:08 am

What stakeholder in the docklands would invest yet more money investing in a hospital, third level collage, offices etc without the provision of the public open space identified as crucial by EVERY report since the master plan for the area was put together over a ten year period?

Thousands of jobs are in jeopardy due to the greed of the GAA and the councillors that do the GAA’s bidding.

The best use for the land now would be to erect large gates at the Port of Corks Bonded Warehouse building and use the entire docklands as a new city landfill site.

If this type of carry on happened in any other EU country (with the exception of Italy; they also have a Mafia) there would be investigations launched.
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