Fire certs

Fire certs

Postby Jimjim » Mon May 10, 2010 3:33 pm

Are there any exemptions in relation to fire certs for very small extensions. In this case, an old school building which never had a fire cert & is now having a 20 sq.m. approx extension.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby henno » Mon May 10, 2010 3:56 pm

no, there are no exemptions.

and not only will the extension have to meet the fire regs, but you will have to show that the existing fire escape and protection measures of the existing building are not contravened due to this new extension.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby teak » Mon May 10, 2010 4:02 pm

What is the present use of this old schoolhouse ?

When your 20 sq m extension is complete, what will be the use of the building then ?
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Jimjim » Mon May 10, 2010 6:53 pm

teak wrote:What is the present use of this old schoolhouse ?

When your 20 sq m extension is complete, what will be the use of the building then ?


No sorry, its currently a school & is remaining a school. Im just worried that the very small budget we have obtained to build a staff & disabled toilet wont be a runner due to additional fees for fire cert application & also depending on extent of any alterations to existing building that it may require. Engineers fees it seems will amount to a rather large percentage of the overall cost.
Now obviously the Engineer will look after all this but are there likely to be many alteration required to the existing building. Its an early 60s building & wouldnt have had much thought given to fire detailing. The new extension is just a new door from existing corridor accessing new staff & wheelchair toilet
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Re: Fire certs

Postby onq » Mon May 10, 2010 7:03 pm

A Fire Safety Cert is required if the works constitute a material alteration affecting Part A or B of the building regulations.
That seems to suggest that something that didn't affect both regulations might be exempt.
Increasing the area increases the occupancy and this will materially affect Part B.

Read this for an outline of the considerations:

http://www.dublincity.ie/WATERWASTEENVIRONMENT/DUBLINFIREBRIGADE/FIREPREVENTION/Pages/BuildingControlFireSafetyCertificatesFAQ.aspx

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Re: Fire certs

Postby Bob Dole » Mon May 10, 2010 7:07 pm

Don't forget your DAC!
It kicks in with the Fire Cert.
Expensive and time consuming...
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Jimjim » Mon May 10, 2010 7:29 pm

Bob Dole wrote:Don't forget your DAC!
It kicks in with the Fire Cert.
Expensive and time consuming...



Ive been told we are exempt from local authority fees. At least thats a help.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Mon May 10, 2010 9:41 pm

Jimjim wrote:............additional fees for fire cert application & also depending on extent of any alterations to existing building that it may require. Engineers fees it seems will amount to a rather large percentage of the overall cost.
Now obviously the Engineer will look after all this but are there likely to be many alteration required to the existing building. .......




Rule No. 1.
To get work and get paid in this country for providing architectural services, call yourself an "Engineer".
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Re: Fire certs

Postby onq » Mon May 10, 2010 10:44 pm

Jimjim wrote:(snip) Its an early 60s building & wouldnt have had much thought given to fire detailing. The new extension is just a new door from existing corridor accessing new staff & wheelchair toilet


You might be surprised at the level of fire safety your building might already have.

The Fire Services Act 1981 came in after the Stardust disaster and some fire officers were quite diligent in inspecting public buildings afterwards. The Health Safety and Welfare at Work Act 1989 came in shortly after that and this might have encouraged the authorities to upgrade the building.

Signs of these upgrades might include the provision of self-closing fire doors with tight tolerances along corridors and at fire stairs as well as new(ish) Fire Detection and Alarm systems.

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Re: Fire certs

Postby teak » Tue May 11, 2010 9:42 am

I'd say that a Fire Certificate is obligatory as you are making a material alteration to a building used as a place of assembly (school).

Has the engineer in question been formally engaged yet ?
If not, then please refrain from engaging him.
Because this is a school improvement - funded by a very smal budget, maybe funded by the school itself - then there is no justification for anyone to charge normal-sized fees for such a small 220 sq ft extension.
There must be some engineer/arch/arch tech in the parish who will see the necessity for doing this job "on the house".
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Jimjim » Tue May 11, 2010 11:30 am

teak wrote:I'd say that a Fire Certificate is obligatory as you are making a material alteration to a building used as a place of assembly (school).

Has the engineer in question been formally engaged yet ?
If not, then please refrain from engaging him.
Because this is a school improvement - funded by a very smal budget, maybe funded by the school itself - then there is no justification for anyone to charge normal-sized fees for such a small 220 sq ft extension.
There must be some engineer/arch/arch tech in the parish who will see the necessity for doing this job "on the house".



Are you serious about somoeone doing this on the house. They would laught at us. There is a planning application & a fire cert to be obtained as far as I can work out. There is also quite alot of health & safety documentation etc to be sorted. Engineer must also hold professional insurance.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Jimjim » Tue May 11, 2010 11:34 am

onq wrote:You might be surprised at the level of fire safety your building might already have.

The Fire Services Act 1981 came in after the Stardust disaster and some fire officers were quite diligent in inspecting public buildings afterwards. The Health Safety and Welfare at Work Act 1989 came in shortly after that and this might have encouraged the authorities to upgrade the building.

Signs of these upgrades might include the provision of self-closing fire doors with tight tolerances along corridors and at fire stairs as well as new(ish) Fire Detection and Alarm systems.

ONQ.


Well no. Its one long open hall about 5 foot wide with external door at either end. No fire doors (all internal doors are original). No alarm or Fire detection currently. Its a single storey building. I guess its pretty small & wouldnt require a huge amount of stuff as it does seem pretty safe with class rooms opening onto the one hall with a door at each end.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Tue May 11, 2010 11:51 am

Ok,
The exit doors at each end of the Hall don't need to be upgraded because final exit doors are not required to to be fire doors.
Notwithstanding the extension, you should have a fire detection system already in place for a place of assembly such as a school. How did you get insurance with no fire detection? That's asking for trouble.

Is it too much to ask that if someone requires architectural services like planning applications and fire cert applications that they hire an architect?
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Re: Fire certs

Postby teak » Tue May 11, 2010 1:35 pm

Are you serious about somoeone doing this on the house ? They would laught at us.

I'm deadly serious.

Sure, there are a lot of forms to be filled in.
But it's just 20 sq m, goddammit.
And an professional already has the PI insurance anyway.
You must already be getting "very keen" (a building trade euphamism for work at cost) quotes for the actual building work from local tradesmen. No moaning about insurance from them.
Christ, when is someone going to tell these old bulls behind brassplates where to get off.

Is it their mock-offended refusal that bothers you ?
Shame on you for not trying.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby wearnicehats » Tue May 11, 2010 1:47 pm

this is very simple

1. take all references to the name and location of the project off your drawings

2. Arrange a meeting with your local building control and fire officers.

3. Ask them "do I need a fire cert?"

4. If "yes", do one. if "no", don't

you'd have known by now
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Jimjim » Tue May 11, 2010 1:54 pm

Tayto wrote:Ok,
The exit doors at each end of the Hall don't need to be upgraded because final exit doors are not required to to be fire doors.
Notwithstanding the extension, you should have a fire detection system already in place for a place of assembly such as a school. How did you get insurance with no fire detection? That's asking for trouble.

Is it too much to ask that if someone requires architectural services like planning applications and fire cert applications that they hire an architect?



Sorry there is a basic fire system. Only remembered from our drill last year. Im newish to the school & have been given the task of sorting this little project.

In relation to hiring an architect, we have got many quotes. Most architects were in the region of €2500 for fire cert(additional for access cert), €2000 for planning & between 1000 & 4000 for other works relating to certification & further design etc.

Engineers have come in much cheaper - about 4000 approx complete
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Re: Fire certs

Postby teak » Tue May 11, 2010 2:13 pm

In relation to hiring an architect, we have got many quotes. Most architects were in the region of €2500 for fire cert(additional for access cert), €2000 for planning & between 1000 & 4000 for other works relating to certification & further design etc.

Engineers have come in much cheaper - about 4000 approx complete.


Now I see why you went to an engineer.

I wonder if some of the architects contributing to this thread would care to comment the fees above.
And their professional indemnity components.
In view of it being a 20 sq m extension, particularly.
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Re: Fire certs

Postby henno » Tue May 11, 2010 2:47 pm

Jimjim wrote:No sorry, its currently a school & is remaining a school. Im just worried that the very small budget we have obtained to build a staff & disabled toilet wont be a runner due to additional fees for fire cert application & also depending on extent of any alterations to existing building that it may require. Engineers fees it seems will amount to a rather large percentage of the overall cost.
Now obviously the Engineer will look after all this but are there likely to be many alteration required to the existing building. Its an early 60s building & wouldnt have had much thought given to fire detailing. The new extension is just a new door from existing corridor accessing new staff & wheelchair toilet


im confused.....

the proper procedure is for you to tell your agent (be they architect / engineer whatever) what you require and what your budget is.

Your agent should inform you off all legal requirements to be meet, including planning, fire safety, disability access, health and safety etc. Your agent should inform you of fees required to bring the project to site, in order for you to confidently work out building budget.

there should be no "additional fees"....!!!!

was this done for you??

assuming the 20 sq m would costs in the region of €25,000 to finish.... the architect quotations are offensive. maybe sweary mary was correct and some architects have not yet felt the "ill wind"..... :rolleyes:
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Re: Fire certs

Postby wearnicehats » Tue May 11, 2010 3:11 pm

I'm beginning to think this thread is a wind-up. Any school I know would have had it built and be well into the shoulder shrugging stage by now
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Wed May 12, 2010 12:03 am

teak wrote:In relation to hiring an architect, we have got many quotes. Most architects were in the region of €2500 for fire cert(additional for access cert), €2000 for planning & between 1000 & 4000 for other works relating to certification & further design etc.

Engineers have come in much cheaper - about 4000 approx complete.


Now I see why you went to an engineer.

I wonder if some of the architects contributing to this thread would care to comment the fees above.
And their professional indemnity components.
In view of it being a 20 sq m extension, particularly.


Ah......... here we go again......

20m2 for a staff toilet and disabled toilet for a small one-corridor schoolhouse?
That's one big mother of a toilet facility. Now I see why you went to an engineer.

An acceptable size for a disabled cubicle as described in Part M of the building regulations is 2mx1.5m = 3m2. For a small school like you describe, a similar sized cubicle for staff would be sufficient. Add another 1.5m for a vent lobby and that adds up to 7.5m2.
That could probably be built for say, 10.5k euro, or nearly 1/3 of your current budget if your budget is based on a floor area of 20m2.

An architect could have told you that, but I agree with you, Teak & Henno that architects are offensively expensive, especially the unemployed ones.:rolleyes:
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Re: Fire certs

Postby wearnicehats » Wed May 12, 2010 9:52 am

Tayto wrote:......

An architect could have told you that, but I agree with you, Teak & Henno that architects are offensively expensive, especially the unemployed ones.


ok charity boys

before we take this any further - what, in your pro bono little minds, would be an acceptable salary for a fully qualified MRIAI self employed architect with 20 years experience - in a given financial year?
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Wed May 12, 2010 10:03 am

wearnicehats wrote:ok charity boys

before we take this any further - what, in your pro bono little minds, would be an acceptable salary for a fully qualified MRIAI self employed architect with 20 years experience - in a given financial year?


I've edited my previous post to indicate the intended sarcasm.
From past posts I have read, I am of the opinion that Teak has a general contempt for architects. If you have energy to waste in engaging in argument then off you go.

What would be an acceptable salary? For someone to do an 'ol drawin' an' fill out a few forms an' dat?
Given current employment rates, economic conditions, state of public finances, etc. blah blah blah, how about......."Any"?.:rolleyes:
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Re: Fire certs

Postby henno » Wed May 12, 2010 10:52 am

WNH and tayto....

20m2 school extension should cost no more than €25k in todays economy. Yes, that is actually realistic pricing outside the M50..!!!

so based on what jimjim has posted architects quoted between €5,500 and €8,500.

what in gods name are they doing quoting figures of these percentages (22 - 34%) for toilet extensions???.... if theyre trying to cover high PI premiums id question why they are high !!?!

Jimjim, what is the proposed construction cost of the build???
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Re: Fire certs

Postby henno » Wed May 12, 2010 10:56 am

Tayto wrote:Given current employment rates, economic conditions, state of public finances, etc. blah blah blah, how about......."Any"?.:rolleyes:


and how does that statement marry with what jimjim has posted about quotations??
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Re: Fire certs

Postby Tayto » Wed May 12, 2010 11:25 am

henno wrote:WNH and tayto....

......so based on what jimjim has posted architects quoted between €5,500 and €8,500.

what in gods name are they doing quoting figures of these percentages (22 - 34%) for toilet extensions???.... if theyre trying to cover high PI premiums id question why they are high !!?!

Jimjim, what is the proposed construction cost of the build???


JimJim is the Project Manager.

Having posted an inquiry regarding fire certification on Archiseek (that's "Archi" and "Seek") and having received free advice from some architects, the Project Manager then revealed that he had "forgotten" that there was an existing fire detection system in the school.

The PM has selected a tender from an engineer who is unable to advise on fire issues and who has quoted a fee for provision of all services.

The proposed area (20m2) is also nearly 3 times too big than the proposed use merits (7.5m2).

Any architect could have provided this information for free at an initial meeting if the PM had any intention of engaging one.

If the PM had accurately described the project he would have received accurate quotes.

I don't think the PM accurately described the project to any architect and did not receive any accurate quote from an architect.

Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that, with probably 60% of architects unemployed and many others on 3-day- weeks, that a client could do no better than get a fee quote for 20% of construction costs?

I don't think the PM has done his homework and the School Principal will not be pleased.

Perhaps the proposed large size of this particular sanitary facility is to cater for the particularly large amount of waste matter emanating from this thread.
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