Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby missarchi » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:06 am

the only way I can see it happening...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14980862@N03/2099583097/sizes/l/

it will melt away unless the iceage is coming.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby kinsella » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:19 am

Tuborg wrote:Would it not be better to fashion something that's representative of modern Ireland? Whatever that is.


.............a statue of Charles Haughey? ;)
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby kinsella » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:27 am

lauder wrote:While I agree entirely with you gunter on the reinstatement of King Billy, you must remember our views are not the norm, and the majority of the public (riled up by tabloid press and republicans) would be set against it.


I would say the majority of the public would be against it for entirely natural and understandable reasons, regardless of the tabloid press and republicans.

As a compromise, I would like to see a Cenotaph placed there as a focal gathering point for Remembrance Day ceremonies, similar to the one in London (and Cork).


A good idea!
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby gunter » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:45 am

Tuborg, I know I'm in a hole and I should stop digging, but . . . .

Tuborg wrote:To be honest gunter. I think most people would rather see a big heap of excrement dumped on College Green than have a triumphalist monument to imperialism re-instated!


That's probably true, but Billy wasn't some sinister Soviet representation of a scowling Lenin imposed by alien forces, he was erected by the people of Dublin [the majority of] in an act of celebration. Of course it was devisive, all monuments worth erecting are devisive to some extent, the O'Connell monument and the re-naming of Sackville Street was a devisive and triumphalist act of Catholic nationalism!

I wouldn't have any interest in ''pandering or appeasement'', but I think a more realistic appraisal of our history, and the monuments that celebrate it, wouldn't do us any harm
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Global Citizen » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:06 am

Putting Billy back on his horse in College Green may well be seen as a token of our coming of age as a nation. A statement to the wider world that we have cast off the shackles of our colonial past and are no longer hung up about the legacy of the Williamite victories in The Boyne and Aughrim. However as we know only too well in this country, the past is always present where statues and symbols of historic figures are unveiled. And while those calling for the return of King Billy's statue do so with the best of intentions, I believe such a gesture would be met with a large degree of triumphalism on the part of many within the loyalist community and the love Ulster brigade.
Not something I would encourage.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Tayto » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:34 pm

gunter wrote:
I wouldn't have any interest in ''pandering or appeasement'', but I think a more realistic appraisal of our history, and the monuments that celebrate it, wouldn't do us any harm


There is of course, the legacy of Eric of the Hairyback, the original Viking founder of Dubbelin Town. Legend has it that Eric's sanitary facilities were located somewhere in the locality around College Green. A fitting memorial would be the provision of a modern 21st century public toilet, which would serve as both a practical public facility as well as representing the current technologically advanced culture of modern day Erin.
As a gesture to the Orange brethern present, I propose that a representation of the Dutch horse-rider could be incorporated into the design of the wc facilities.

And lest it be forgotten, to all dreaming of a London-on-the-Liffey, a war memorial already exits in Islandbridge, namely the Irish National War Memorial Gardens.

PVC King wrote:However we could probably get shed loads of cash from the EU to pour loads of concrete by the Boyne for the 'King Bill Experience' ...


For a moment there, I thought that read the "Kill Bill Experience".......
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Bago » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:34 pm

Re returning billy, wouldn't it make more sense if we had some form of the park in budapest where they moved all their communist statues to. Realistically what's the point in putting it back, it's going to be vandalised or blown up whatever about all here may think. And it's about as relevant as replacing dublin bikes with penny farthings. A single location, maybe in phoenix park with all the old removed statues representative of the empire could be placed there for all to view, could be an attraction. And there's no element of people possibly being offended, it is what it is, a graveyard for a past regime.

As for some of these proposals for college green, no stainless steel bollards. please. PLEASE.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Bago » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:24 pm

Global Citizen wrote:Putting Billy back on his horse in College Green may well be seen as a token of our coming of age as a nation. .


gunter wrote:Billy wasn't some sinister Soviet representation of a scowling Lenin imposed by alien forces, he was erected by the people of Dublin [the majority of] in an act of celebration.


Would a reinstatement of Hitler (no comparison obviously) busts and statues in germany in 200 years time represent a maturing of germany, they did vote him in! sounds more like senility.

This is the king that stood over the penal laws, laws that set a deep rot into most of irish society destroying any sense of ambition, entrepreneurialsim, forward planning and civic mindedness. A day to day, hand to mouth society that walked into a famine and probably spawned our current directionless gombeen political system.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Tuborg » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:09 pm

kinsella wrote:.............a statue of Charles Haughey? ;)


I think Bertie has well and truly taken over that mantle at this stage.

gunter wrote:
I wouldn't have any interest in ''pandering or appeasement'', but I think a more realistic appraisal of our history, and the monuments that celebrate it, wouldn't do us any harm


I wasn't referring to you there gunter. I was merely pointing out that there are those who perhaps cling to the past a bit too much. Almost yearning nostalgically for the days of the empire. :o

The way I see it. If that monument still existed, maybe lying in a scrapyard. Then it could have been put back on display somewhere. However seen as it was destroyed, blown up or whatever. I really don't see the point in going to the bother of creating a replica. Im my view that would smack of desperation really.

Global Citizen wrote: And while those calling for the return of King Billy's statue do so with the best of intentions, I believe such a gesture would be met with a large degree of triumphalism on the part of many within the loyalist community and the love Ulster brigade.
Not something I would encourage.


I think thats a good point. While many down here would see such a move as progressive. The neanderthal element of those loyal Ulster folk would see it as a victory for their bigoted ideology. Some people actually forget just how hostile the average nordie can be towards "The Free State".

As regards that charade, the love Ulster march. It was to be nothing more than a lap of honour for the anti-Irish brigade up there. Looking back, it was embarrassing to see just how many people were hoodwinked by the whole thing. Although not as embarrassing as those scummers tearing the place asunder! :rolleyes:
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby gunter » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:25 pm

It would probably be better all round if we drop the whole Billy thing [on this thread anyway] Sorry for bringing it up, it's a distraction from the main subject matter which is the future of College Green. Even if there was ever to be a full reinstatement of the Billy statue on College Green, the impact on the space would probably be quite minimal.

A couple of final points:

Bago wrote:Would a reinstatement of Hitler (no comparison obviously) busts and statues in germany in 200 years time represent a maturing of germany, they did vote him in! sounds more like senility.


It seems that, sooner or later, every twisted tyrant, or rampaging hoard of blood thirsty killers, re-enter popular culture as a figure of fun, like Vlad-the-Impailer, or Tayto's pal, Eric-the-Hairyback, so I suppose it's only a matter of time before the future equivalent of the Viking Splash tours will take to future city streets with landing craft full of snarling school-age Nazis resplendent in swastika armbands and brandishing inflatible V2 rockets.

Bago wrote:This is the king that stood over the penal laws, laws that set a deep rot into most of irish society destroying any sense of ambition, entrepreneurialsim, forward planning and civic mindedness. A day to day, hand to mouth society that walked into a famine and probably spawned our current directionless gombeen political system.


My history is a little rusty, but I came across an early 20th century history of Clonmel recently, and the author, a protestant vicar, made exactly that point, that it was the small-minded pernicious penalties and regulations under the umbrella of the Penal Laws that drained the will and the hope out of the catholic population and turned them into the squalid mass of down-trodden humanity that travellers to this country took as evidence of a national character flaw.

In that context Bago's summary is right on the money, except that the bulk of the penal laws were enacted well after William's death in 1702, and if the people responsible for this subsequent penal regime were almost certainly prominent amongst those parading in Orange celebrations, does that make it fair to find William guilty of this by posthumous association?

Tuborg wrote:The way I see it. If that monument still existed, maybe lying in a scrapyard. Then it could have been put back on display somewhere. However seen as it was destroyed, blown up or whatever. I really don't see the point in going to the bother of creating a replica.


That's a fair point.

The way I heard it, the monument 'was damaged in an explosion' in 1929 and the decision was taken to remove it and that this coincided with the Eucharistic Congress etc.
That doesn't sound like it was destroyed, I wonder if it's dismantled remains are lying forgotten in a store somewhere?

Tuborg wrote:As regards that charade, the love Ulster march. It was to be nothing more than a lap of honour for the anti-Irish brigade up there. Looking back, it was embarrassing to see just how many people were hoodwinked by the whole thing. Although not as embarrassing as those scummers tearing the place asunder! :rolleyes:


I think the whole 'Love-Ulster' thing was just misjudged. I think the authorities down here wanted the event to come in under the radar, pass off after attracting only mild attention as if it was no big deal and then afterwards everyone could take their time digesting the huge significance of the fact that it had actually taken place.

Unfortunately not everyone was on the same page.

That it turned into a dangerous fiasco shouldn't detract from the fact that it was a brave thing to attempt.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby lauder » Sat May 01, 2010 12:17 am

There is rumoured to be parts and remnants old statues in the OPW yard at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham.

Bits could be lying around there. I understand some of Lord Gough, King George IV (from St. Stephen's Green) and other have parts there.

Will dig out a few books and confirm.

Still thing the advantages available in the opening up of College Green, should allow for a central rallying spot, and ideal for a Remembrance Cenotaph. Ideal target for 2018!
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Bago » Sat May 01, 2010 5:02 am

gunter wrote:so I suppose it's only a matter of time before the future equivalent of the Viking Splash tours will take to future city streets with landing craft full of snarling school-age Nazis resplendent in swastika armbands and brandishing inflatible V2 rockets.
Obviously you've been on the 'nazi splash' in Brest, i wholeheartedly embrace the citys acceptance of it's recent nautical history.
Billy - Booooh, hisssss......
College green - no stainless steel bollards please. thanks.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Tayto » Sat May 01, 2010 1:09 pm

lauder wrote:There is rumoured to be parts and remnants old statues in the OPW yard at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham.

Bits could be lying around there. I understand some of Lord Gough, King George IV (from St. Stephen's Green) and other have parts there.

Will dig out a few books and confirm.

Still thing the advantages available in the opening up of College Green, should allow for a central rallying spot, and ideal for a Remembrance Cenotaph. Ideal target for 2018!


Good idea. The old scrap could be recycled in the form of cast iron bollards.
What about a centrally located maypole? We could invite a few cockney lads over to hop around it singing "Any Old Iron" to mark special days of the Empire.
.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby EIA340600 » Sat May 01, 2010 4:06 pm

Tayto wrote:Good idea. The old scrap could be recycled in the form of cast iron bollards.
What about a centrally located maypole? We could invite a few cockney lads over to hop around it singing "Any Old Iron" to mark special days of the Empire.
.


Or, they could be moulded into something of our own as a symbol of how we've taken the remnants of the "empire" and made something of it that is ours.
That's a bit much though...
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby jimg » Sat May 01, 2010 9:10 pm

As a contrarian by nature, this resurrect King Billy suggestion is just too juicy to let pass.

Does anyone admire the deliberate destruction of Buddhist statues in Afghanistan? Or the Chinese destruction of "imperial" buildings and monuments (and books, pottery, etc.) during the Cultural Revolution? Or any of the iconoclastic movements during history from the Christian destruction of Roman temples to the communist destruction of Christian churches during the Russian revolution? All of these actions could be justifiable in terms of a "wronged" group eventually becoming dominant.

But still, these actions look petty and vindictive from the outside particularly when the symbols no longer represent any sort of threat. And yet the notion of removing/destroying/denying the symbols of an earlier culture always seems to have some sort of appealing logic from the inside.

I worked for a multinational a few years back. One particular work assignment involved spending time in Casablanca. My local colleague drove me around for a look at the city (profoundly disappointing for someone with fond notions influenced by Michael Curtiz). Most was quite bland an uninteresting until I spotted what looked like an almost intact Roman colosseum standing forlornly opposite a normal city block. I started enthusing about this only to be informed, to paraphrase, that the Romans were a bunch of complete bastards in Morocco and killed and enslaved huge numbers of north Africans and it couldn't happen soon enough that an apartment block or office building would replace this symbol of oppression.

It may well be true that the Romans inflicted terrible misery on the natives but this destruction of a historical remnant sounded horrific to me.

In fact, I'm convinced that "right" and "wrong" have nothing to do with this issue. If it was, then how can anyone stomach the fact that one of the most potent symbols of human moral degeneracy - Auschwitz - has not been leveled into the ground? Yet anyone calling for it's destruction these days would be laughed at. To draw parallels in this area is very very dodgy indeed but the fact that neo-nazis could derive satisfaction that Auschwitz still stands shouldn't have any bearing on it. Similarly with extremists from the north and a statue of King Billy.

Personally I think the Brits have gotten off quite lightly in terms of guilt for their record in Ireland (certainly if you read an English history book, it's shocking to find that you might be lucky to find more than a couple of paragraphs on Ireland) but I have no time at all for the idea that removing remnants of their legacy in Ireland can be justified because of this. Perhaps in the immediate aftermath of the overthrow of an oppressor (Saddam statues and Lenin status or Nazi monuments for example) it is understandable but hundreds of years later, it looks stupid.

So I guess that makes it 2 (assuming gunter hasn't switched sides in the meantime?) in favour of King Billy being put back in his spot and 4,459,298 against.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby gunter » Sat May 01, 2010 11:40 pm

jimg wrote:So I guess that makes it 2 (assuming gunter hasn't switched sides in the meantime?) in favour of King Billy being put back in his spot and 4,459,298 against.


I was planning to tip toe quietly away from this one [while I still had kneecaps], but you've gone and made a very persuasive case . . . . albeit from the comparative safety of Zurich :rolleyes:

As Tuborg said, even floating the idea hinges, somewhat, on whether substantial remains of the Billy monument actually exist.

God knows who was in charge of proceedings back in 1929, would it have been the Office of Public Works, or Dublin Corporation? It could have been the Legion of Mary for all I know.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby lauder » Sun May 02, 2010 1:57 am

gunter wrote:I was planning to tip toe quietly away from this one [while I still had kneecaps], but you've gone and made a very persuasive case . . . . albeit from the comparative safety of Zurich :rolleyes:

As Tuborg said, even floating the idea hinges, somewhat, on whether substantial remains of the Billy monument actually exist./URL]

God knows who was in charge of proceedings back in 1929, would it have been the Office of Public Works, or Dublin Corporation? It could have been the Legion of Mary for all I know.


Make that 3 in favour, although I'm a floating voter and would except a compromise of a Remembrance Cenotaph!

Interestingly, Lord Gough's statue late of Phoenix Park, has been reinstated in Ballymun, or at least his horse has!! So it is obviously financially reasonable to do for Billy!

[INDENT]Image[/INDENT][

http://www.john-byrne.ie/project.php"]http://www.john-byrne.ie/project.php"]http://www.john-byrne.ie/project.php

Image

Image
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby jimg » Sun May 02, 2010 8:18 pm

gunter wrote:I was planning to tip toe quietly away from this one [while I still had kneecaps], but you've gone and made a very persuasive case . . . . albeit from the comparative safety of Zurich :rolleyes:

I'm not so keen on testing the argument on some of my kith and kin in north Kerry/west Limerick the next time I'm back for a visit. I'd have to time it just as they were taking a sip of tea and then quickly make my goodbyes while they were purple from a mixture of choking and indignation.
As Tuborg said, even floating the idea hinges, somewhat, on whether substantial remains of the Billy monument actually exist.

Indeed - I would go further and say it completely depends on the existence of most of the monument. Constructing a replica would make no sense at all to me. The whole argument may well be academic.

And lauder - my apologies for not including you. With support growing at this rate (50% a day), I can soon see a majority demanding that "our" King Billy be re-instated.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby onq » Sun May 02, 2010 8:24 pm

missarchi wrote:some other ideas...

Image


Wow!

I only dropped into this thread tonight.

That looks amazing!

What did you do it with?

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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby gunter » Sun May 02, 2010 8:26 pm

Looks like we can stop agonizing about reinstating the Billy statue.

I found this post on the Politics.ie forum

[INDENT]vasaborg
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. . . . the statue of King William III was not damaged in the 1929 explosion, only the plinth was damaged, Dublin Corporation decided to remove it , as they said it was a traffic hassard! . It remained in a Corporation store for years, and in the 1940s some one broke in and sawed off the head, shortly after that it was melted down. [/INDENT]

. . . so Billy suffered a meltdown!
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby onq » Sun May 02, 2010 8:32 pm

jimg wrote:As a contrarian by nature, this resurrect King Billy suggestion is just too juicy to let pass.


I think you should let it pass.

Buildings - depending on their former uses - may or may not be symbols of oppression.
They may have housed a use in later years that was supportive of the local community.
Look at all the fine Georgian buildings we practically revere today in Dublin.
And I share your concern about the Roman building in Morocco.

However...

Equestrian statues are a quintessential symbol of victory over a defeated foe/symbol of oppression.

I'm not a rabid Republican, but an equestrian statue of King Billy would not go down well with me.

You could put it up, then I could paint bomb it - if I had some paint bombs. :D

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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Devin » Tue May 04, 2010 11:41 am

Image

The horse monument looked good in College Green. Appropriately pompous for the location.

It's a great pity the Free State didn't get on the case a bit quicker and make the necessary political changes to the King Willian, Nelson, Gough, et al monuments (as they did to Royal motifs on the Four Courts and GPO) and thus spared them their philistine fate :-( They were sitting ducks. O'Connell or one of those geezers must have rode a horse ...
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Global Citizen » Tue May 04, 2010 12:15 pm

Devin wrote:Image
O'Connell or one of those geezers must have rode a horse ...


O'Connell had four horses.
He famously drove them through any piece of legislation he didn't like.
Its no wonder he got his way in the end.:)
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby gunter » Tue May 04, 2010 12:32 pm

Billy died as a result of a fall from his horse

. . . . if that makes anyone more comfortable with it
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby PVC King » Tue May 04, 2010 12:34 pm

Devin wrote:
It's a great pity the Free State didn't get on the case a bit quicker and make the necessary political changes to the King Willian, Nelson, Gough, et al monuments (as they did to Royal motifs on the Four Courts and GPO) and thus spared them their philistine fate


You should have been a revisionist historian!!!

Interesting concept; you could build a faceless horseman and simply add a new face each time a new hero came along or the old one became a little stale. More applicable to dictatorships; imagine that statue of Sadaam which was pulled down by the tank; they could have taken off the face and simply waited for a new hero or dictator whichever the earlier!!
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