We have all been massively wronged and should protest

We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:32 am

You know, I remember a case back in the 1980's or 1990's of a woman caught shoplifting a pair of shoes who was sent to prison for 4 years - she was a mother of four children IIRC.

Here we are in a society where an entire sector has been shut down, livelihoods destroyed, people mired in unpayable person debt - through the actions and inactions of the government, the financial regulator and the banks.

Not one person has been charged with any offense, although it is manifestly clear that a major and grievous wrong has been committed and that some people have profited hugely out of it.

Very few main players have been fired, although some have walked and some have fled because of it.

Massive provision is in the accounts of Anglo for the thefts of millions of Euros by these people.

And yet, here in good old repressed Ireland, not one person is marching in protest.

The Big Boys in Europe class us with the O'Med group otherwise known as the Piigs.

Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.

Lovely, just bleedin' lovely.

The Greeks are laughing at us, having run up debts of €300 Billion they are getting bailed out - we are going to have to pay 800 million a year to help them - US!

We're all just too Middle Class, to march although for how much longer rermains to be seen.

Many families I know are one major bill away from not being able to put food on the table.

And of course I know so many once-triving businesses - apart from architects - that are going under.

I think we need to protest about this - anyone up for a march or even a protest?

How does 1:00 pm next Saturday outside Government Buildings sound?

ONQ.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby PVC King » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:31 pm

onq wrote:The Big Boys in Europe class us with the O'Med group otherwise known as the Piigs.

Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.



ONQ.


As an Italian currency strategist point out to me last week; the I in pigs does not stand for Italy; they declared a tax amnesty and brought close to €100bn of hot money into their system; needless to say it was the only fiscal stimulus that was revenue positive that I am aware of.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby reddy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:38 pm

onq wrote:You know, I remember a case back in the 1980's or 1990's of a woman caught shoplifting a pair of shoes who was sent to prison for 4 years - she was a mother of four children IIRC.

Here we are in a society where an entire sector has been shut down, livelihoods destroyed, people mired in unpayable person debt - through the actions and inactions of the government, the financial regulator and the banks.

Not one person has been charged with any offense, although it is manifestly clear that a major and grievous wrong has been committed and that some people have profited hugely out of it.

Very few main players have been fired, although some have walked and some have fled because of it.

Massive provision is in the accounts of Anglo for the thefts of millions of Euros by these people.

And yet, here in good old repressed Ireland, not one person is marching in protest.

The Big Boys in Europe class us with the O'Med group otherwise known as the Piigs.

Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.

Lovely, just bleedin' lovely.

The Greeks are laughing at us, having run up debts of €300 Billion they are getting bailed out - we are going to have to pay 800 million a year to help them - US!

We're all just too Middle Class, to march although for how much longer rermains to be seen.

Many families I know are one major bill away from not being able to put food on the table.

And of course I know so many once-triving businesses - apart from architects - that are going under.

I think we need to protest about this - anyone up for a march or even a protest?

How does 1:00 pm next Saturday outside Government Buildings sound?

ONQ.



Totally agree with the need for a protest - I was asking friends and people I know though and there seems to be very little appetite.

I think it needs something more than a protest.

I think there needs to be a symbolic call that people can lay down at the gates of Leinster House asking for a change of government - perhaps a huge protest can be organised where everyone files past the gates and leaves a daffodil or some other symbol of spring/renewal.

How does this get organised?
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby Andrew Duffy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:57 pm

onq wrote:Here we are in a society where an entire sector has been shut down, livelihoods destroyed, people mired in unpayable person debt - through the actions and inactions of the government, the financial regulator and the banks.


I still shudder thinking of the day when three heavies in cheap suits from the government, the financial regulator and the banks forced me to sign my mortgage contract.

Oh wait, no I don't, because that never happened.

The country's current economic situation is the result of the greed of every person who bought an overpriced house in the assumption it would become more so, used a credit card or personal loan to pay for a holiday or consumer good in the assumption they would earn the money to pay for it, or took an overpaid job in a construction-related industry or the bloated public service in the assumption that it had a future. The government, elected by that fraction of the public that cared to vote, enacted laws to facilitate the greed of its electorate. The Financial Regulator created a climate where the banks that fuelled our consumerism could trade easily and profitably.

Marching will achieve precisely nothing. The current government will not be returned at the next general election - the government that presides over the slide into recession never is. The Financial Regulator will not enact laws that prevent banks from trading as they wish - our greed and drive to acquire property and goods is too great.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:02 pm

Obviously I disagree with the "holier than thou" and the "it will do no good" merchants.

We have all been massively wronged and should protest

List of Dáil Deputies in alphabetical order but see below for a cut and paste list of e-mail addresses, both from http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=12684

I have reproduced and relevant information below in this post.

There is the first list which related names to e-mails - ignore this.

Go to the second list at the bottom of that page of this post and highlight all of them.

Copy and paste that entire list of e-mail addresses into the first header line of your e-mail client and hit the "return" key.

A few seconds may elapse after which all 164 TD's noted below should appear on separate lines.

Write your message and hit "send", although perhaps VOR or someone else may suggest an appropriate text in this thread - what you send is your choice.

You may have to override a security protocal that prevents you sending more than 50 e-mails at once - just do that, it should default to the normal security protocol the next time.

It may be that we will achieve nothing, or that we will be misunderstood, or villified or perhaps even ridiculed by our peers.

But I believe that government should be held accountable and that we should voice our serious concerns about our country, our livelihoods and our childrens future.

Demanding show trials or turfing executive and non-executive directors, chairmen, and former regulators - never mind current and former taoiseagh onto the streets may be a pipe dream.

But we should let this government know the depth of feeling out there against the situation we find ourselves in and our current inability to pay back our debts through lack of gainful employment.

FWIW

ONQ.


From: http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=12684


1. Mr. Bertie Ahern bertie.ahern@oireachtas.ie
2. Mr. Dermot Ahern dermot.ahern@oireachtas.ie
3. Mr. Michael Ahern michael.ahern@oireachtas.ie
4. Mr. Noel Ahern noel.ahern@oireachtas.ie
5. Mr. Bernard Allen bernard.allen@oireachtas.ie
6. Mr. Chris Andrews chris.andrews@oireachtas.ie
7. Mr. Barry Andrews barry.andrews@oireachtas.ie
8. Mr. Seán Ardagh sean.ardagh@oireachtas.ie
9. Mr. Bobby Aylward bobby.aylward@oireachtas.ie
10. Mr. James Bannon james.bannon@oireachtas.ie
11. Mr. Sean Barrett sean.barrett@oireachtas.ie
12. Mr. Joe Behan joe.behan@oireachtas.ie
13. Mr. Niall Blaney niall.blaney@oireachtas.ie
14. Ms. Aíne Brady aine.brady@oireachtas.ie
15. Mr. Cyprian Brady cyprian.brady@oireachtas.ie
16. Mr. Johnny Brady johnny.brady@oireachtas.ie
17. Mr. Pat Breen pat.breen@oireachtas.ie
18. Mr. Tommy Broughan thomas.p.broughan@oireachtas.ie
19. Mr. John Browne john.browne@oireachtas.ie
20. Mr. Richard Bruton richard.bruton@oireachtas.ie
21. Mr. Ulick Burke ulick.burke@oireachtas.ie
22. Ms. Joan Burton joan.burton@oireachtas.ie
23. Ms. Catherine Byrne catherine.byrne@oireachtas.ie
24. Mr. Thomas Byrne thomas.byrne@oireachtas.ie
25. Mr. Dara Calleary dara.calleary@oireachtas.ie
26. Mr. Pat Carey pat.carey@oireachtas.ie
27. Mr. Joe Carey joe.carey@oireachtas.ie
28. Ms. Deirdre Clune deirdre.clune@oireachtas.ie
29. Mr. Niall Collins niall.collins@oireachtas.ie
30. Ms. Margaret Conlon margaret.conlon@oireachtas.ie
31. Mr. Paul Connaughton paul.connaughton@oireachtas.ie
32. Mr. Sean Connick sean.connick@oireachtas.ie
33. Mr. Noel J Coonan noel.coonan@oireachtas.ie
34. Mr. Joe Costello joe.costello@oireachtas.ie
35. Ms. Mary Coughlan mary.coughlan@oireachtas.ie
36. Mr. Simon Coveney simon.coveney@oireachtas.ie
37. Mr. Brian Cowen taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie
38. Mr. Seymour Crawford seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie
39. Mr. Michael Creed michael.creed@oireachtas.ie
40. Mr. John Cregan john.cregan@oireachtas.ie
41. Ms. Lucinda Creighton lucinda.creighton@oireachtas.ie
42. Mr. Ciaran Cuffe ciaran.cuffe@oireachtas.ie
43. Mr. Martin Cullen martin.cullen@oireachtas.ie
44. Mr. John Curran john.curran@oireachtas.ie
45. Mr. Michael W. D'Arcy michael.darcy@oireachtas.ie
46. Mr. John Deasy john.deasy@oireachtas.ie
47. Mr. Jimmy Deenihan jimmy.deenihan@oireachtas.ie
48. Mr. Noel Dempsey noel.dempsey@oireachtas.ie
49. Mr. Jimmy Devins jimmy.devins@oireachtas.ie
50. Mr. Timmy Dooley timmy.dooley@oireachtas.ie
51. Mr. Andrew Doyle andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie
52. Mr. Bernard Durkan bernard.durkan@oireachtas.ie
53. Mr. Damien English damien.english@oireachtas.ie
54. Ms. Olwyn Enright olwyn.enright@oireachtas.ie
55. Mr. Frank Fahey frank.fahey@oireachtas.ie
56. Mr. Frank Feighan frank.feighan@oireachtas.ie
57. Mr. Martin Ferris martin.ferris@oireachtas.ie
58. Mr. Michael Finneran michael.finneran@oireachtas.ie
59. Mr. Michael Fitzpatrick michael.fitzpatrick@oireachtas.ie
60. Mr. Charles Flanagan charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie
61. Mr. Terence Flanagan terence.flanagan@oireachtas.ie
62. Mr. Sean Fleming sean.fleming@oireachtas.ie
63. Ms. Beverley Flynn beverley.flynn@oireachtas.ie
64. Mr. Eamon Gilmore eamon.gilmore@oireachtas.ie
65. Mr. Paul Nicholas Gogarty paul.gogarty@oireachtas.ie
66. Mr. John Gormley john.gormley@oireachtas.ie
67. Mr. Noel Grealish noel.grealish@oireachtas.ie
68. Ms. Mary Hanafin mary.hanafin@oireachtas.ie
69. Ms. Mary Harney mary.harney@oireachtas.ie
70. Mr. Sean Haughey sean.haughey@oireachtas.ie
71. Mr. Brian Hayes brian.hayes@oireachtas.ie
72. Mr. Tom Hayes tom.hayes@oireachtas.ie
73. Mr. Jackie Healy-Rae Jackie.Healy.Rae@oireachtas.ie
74. Mr. Michael D. Higgins michael.higgins@oireachtas.ie
75. Ms. Máire Hoctor maire.hoctor@oireachtas.ie
76. Mr. Phil Hogan philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie
77. Mr. Brendan Howlin brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie
78. Mr. Paul Kehoe paul.kehoe@oireachtas.ie
79. Mr. Billy Kelleher billy.kelleher@oireachtas.ie
80. Mr. Peter Kelly peter.kelly@oireachtas.ie
81. Mr. Brendan Kenneally brendan.kenneally@oireachtas.ie
82. Mr. Michael Kennedy michael.kennedy@oireachtas.ie
83. Mr. Enda Kenny enda.kenny@oireachtas.ie
84. Mr. Tony Killeen tony.killeen@oireachtas.ie
85. Mr. Séamus Kirk seamus.kirk@oireachtas.ie
86. Mr. Michael P. Kitt michael.kitt@oireachtas.ie
87. Mr. Tom Kitt tom.kitt@oireachtas.ie
88. Mr. Brian Joseph Lenihan brian.lenihan@oireachtas.ie
89. Mr. Conor Lenihan conor.lenihan@oireachtas.ie
90. Mr. Michael Lowry michael.lowry@oireachtas.ie
91. Ms. Kathleen Lynch kathleen.lynch@oireachtas.ie
92. Mr. Ciarán Lynch ciaran.lynch@oireachtas.ie
93. Dr. Martin Mansergh martin.mansergh@oireachtas.ie
94. Mr. Micheál Martin micheal.martin@oireachtas.ie
95. Mr. Pádraic McCormack padraic.mccormack@oireachtas.ie
96. Dr. James McDaid jim.mcdaid@oireachtas.ie
97. Mr. Thomas McEllistrim tom.mcellistrim@oireachtas.ie
98. Mr. Shane McEntee shane.mcentee@oireachtas.ie
99. Mr. Dinny McGinley dinny.mcginley@oireachtas.ie
100. Mr. Mattie McGrath mattie.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
101. Mr. Michael McGrath michael.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
102. Mr. Finian McGrath finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
103. Mr. John McGuinness john.mcguinness@oireachtas.ie
104. Mr. Joe McHugh joe.mchugh@oireachtas.ie
105. Ms. Liz McManus liz.mcmanus@oireachtas.ie
106. Ms. Olivia Mitchell olivia.mitchell@oireachtas.ie
107. Mr. John Anthony Moloney john.moloney@oireachtas.ie
108. Mr. Arthur Morgan arthur.morgan@oireachtas.ie
109. Mr. Michael Moynihan michael.moynihan@oireachtas.ie
110. Mr. Michael Mulcahy michael.mulcahy@oireachtas.ie
111. Mr. Denis Naughten denis.naughten@oireachtas.ie
112. Mr. Dan Neville daniel.neville@oireachtas.ie
113. Mr. M. J. Nolan mj.nolan@oireachtas.ie
114. Mr. Michael Noonan michael.noonan@oireachtas.ie
115. Mr. Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin caoimhghin.ocaolain@oireachtas.ie
116. Mr. Éamon Ó Cuív eamon.ocuiv@oireachtas.ie
117. Mr. Seán Ó Fearghaíl sean.ofearghail@oireachtas.ie
118. Mr. Aengus Ó Snodaigh aengus.osnodaigh@oireachtas.ie
119. Mr. Darragh O'Brien darragh.obrien@oireachtas.ie
120. Mr. Charlie O'Connor charlie.oconnor@oireachtas.ie
121. Mr. Willie O'Dea willie.odea@oireachtas.ie
122. Mr. Kieran O'Donnell kieran.odonnell@oireachtas.ie
123. Mr. John O'Donoghue john.odonoghue@oireachtas.ie
124. Mr. Fergus O'Dowd fergus.odowd@oireachtas.ie
125. Mr. Noel O'Flynn noel.oflynn@oireachtas.ie
126. Dr. Rory O'Hanlon rory.ohanlon@oireachtas.ie
127. Mr. Batt O'Keeffe batt.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie
128. Mr. Jim O'Keeffe jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie
129. Mr. Edward O'Keeffe ned.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie
130. Mr. John O'Mahony john.omahony@oireachtas.ie
131. Ms. Mary O'Rourke mary.orourke@Oireachtas.ie
132. Mr. Brian O'Shea brian.oshea@oireachtas.ie
133. Mr. Christy O'Sullivan christy.osullivan@oireachtas.ie
134. Ms. Jan O'Sullivan jan.osullivan@oireachtas.ie
135. Ms. Maureen O’Sullivan maureen.osullivan@oireachtas.ie
136. Mr. Willie Penrose willie.penrose@oireachtas.ie
137. Mr. John Perry john.perry@oireachtas.ie
138. Mr. Seán Power sean.power@oireachtas.ie
139. Mr. Peter Power peter.power@oireachtas.ie
140. Mr. Ruairí Quinn ruairi.quinn@oireachtas.ie
141. Mr. Pat Rabbitte pat.rabbitte@oireachtas.ie
142. Dr. James Reilly james.reilly@oireachtas.ie
143. Mr. Michael Ring michael.ring@oireachtas.ie
144. Mr. Dick Roche dick.roche@oireachtas.ie
145. Mr. Eamon Ryan eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie
146. Mr. Trevor Sargent trevor.sargent@oireachtas.ie
147. Mr. Eamon Scanlon eamon.scanlon@oireachtas.ie
148. Mr. Alan Shatter alan.shatter@oireachtas.ie
149. Mr. Tom Sheahan tom.sheahan@oireachtas.ie
150. Mr. P. J. Sheehan pj.sheehan@oireachtas.ie
151. Mr. Sean Sherlock sean.sherlock@oireachtas.ie
152. Ms. Róisín Shortall roisin.shortall@oireachtas.ie
153. Mr. Brendan Smith brendan.smith@oireachtas.ie
154. Mr. Emmet Stagg emmet.stagg@oireachtas.ie
155. Mr. David Stanton david.stanton@oireachtas.ie
156. Mr. Billy Godfrey Timmins billy.timmins@oireachtas.ie
157. Mr. Noel Treacy noel.treacy@oireachtas.ie
158. Ms. Joanna Tuffy joanna.tuffy@oireachtas.ie
159. Dr. Mary Upton mary.upton@oireachtas.ie
160. Mr. Leo Varadkar leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie
161. Mr. Jack Wall jack.wall@oireachtas.ie
162. Ms. Mary Wallace mary.wallace@oireachtas.ie
163. Ms. Mary Alexandra White marya.white@oireachtas.ie
164. Dr. Michael J. Woods michael.woods@oireachtas.ie
List of Email addresses for TD’s of the 30th Dáil as a group:
taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie, bertie.ahern@oireachtas.ie, michael.ahern@oireachtas.ie, noel.ahern@oireachtas.ie, bernard.allen@oireachtas.ie, chris.andrews@oireachtas.ie, barry.andrews@oireachtas.ie, sean.ardagh@oireachtas.ie, bobby.aylward@oireachtas.ie, james.bannon@oireachtas.ie, sean.barrett@oireachtas.ie, joe.behan@oireachtas.ie, john.browne@oireachtas.ie, aine.brady@oireachtas.ie, cyprian.brady@oireachtas.ie, johnny.brady@oireachtas.ie, pat.breen@oireachtas.ie, thomas.p.broughan@oireachtas.ie, niall.blaney@oireachtas.ie, richard.bruton@oireachtas.ie, ulick.burke@oireachtas.ie, joan.burton@oireachtas.ie, catherine.byrne@oireachtas.ie, thomas.byrne@oireachtas.ie, niall.collins@oireachtas.ie, pat.carey@oireachtas.ie, joe.carey@oireachtas.ie, deirdre.clune@oireachtas.ie, dara.calleary@oireachtas.ie, margaret.conlon@oireachtas.ie, paul.connaughton@oireachtas.ie, sean.connick@oireachtas.ie, mary.coughlan@oireachtas.ie, michael.creed@oireachtas.ie, joe.costello@oireachtas.ie, simon.coveney@oireachtas.ie, brian.lenihan@oireachtas.ie, seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie, noel.coonan@oireachtas.ie, john.cregan@oireachtas.ie, lucinda.creighton@oireachtas.ie, jimmy.devins@oireachtas.ie, mary.hanafin@oireachtas.ie, john.curran@oireachtas.ie, michael.darcy@oireachtas.ie, john.deasy@oireachtas.ie, jimmy.deenihan@oireachtas.ie, ciaran.cuffe@oireachtas.ie, noel.dempsey@oireachtas.ie, timmy.dooley@oireachtas.ie, andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie, bernard.durkan@oireachtas.ie, damien.english@oireachtas.ie, michael.fitzpatrick@oireachtas.ie, frank.fahey@oireachtas.ie, frank.feighan@oireachtas.ie, martin.ferris@oireachtas.ie, michael.finneran@oireachtas.ie, olwyn.enright@oireachtas.ie, charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie, terence.flanagan@oireachtas.ie, sean.fleming@oireachtas.ie, beverley.flynn@oireachtas.ie, paul.gogarty@oireachtas.ie, john.gormley@oireachtas.ie, martin.cullen@oireachtas.ie, micheal.martin@oireachtas.ie, noel.grealish@oireachtas.ie, eamon.gilmore@oireachtas.ie, mary.harney@oireachtas.ie, brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie, brian.hayes@oireachtas.ie, tom.hayes@oireachtas.ie, Jackie.Healy.Rae@oireachtas.ie, michael.higgins@oireachtas.ie, maire.hoctor@oireachtas.ie, philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie, sean.haughey@oireachtas.ie, paul.kehoe@oireachtas.ie, billy.kelleher@oireachtas.ie, peter.kelly@oireachtas.ie, brendan.kenneally@oireachtas.ie, michael.kennedy@oireachtas.ie, enda.kenny@oireachtas.ie, eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie, tom.kitt@oireachtas.ie, michael.kitt@oireachtas.ie, conor.lenihan@oireachtas.ie, michael.lowry@oireachtas.ie, kathleen.lynch@oireachtas.ie, tom.mcellistrim@oireachtas.ie, martin.mansergh@oireachtas.ie, minister@dfa.ie, padraic.mccormack@oireachtas.ie, jim.mcdaid@oireachtas.ie, ciaran.lynch@oireachtas.ie, shane.mcentee@oireachtas.ie, dinny.mcginley@oireachtas.ie, mattie.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie, michael.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie, finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie, brendan.smith@oireachtas.ie, john.moloney@oireachtas.ie, joe.mchugh@oireachtas.ie, liz.mcmanus@oireachtas.ie, olivia.mitchell@oireachtas.ie, john.mcguinness@oireachtas.ie, arthur.morgan@oireachtas.ie, michael.moynihan@oireachtas.ie, michael.mulcahy@oireachtas.ie, denis.naughten@oireachtas.ie, sean.ofearghail@oireachtas.ie, mj.nolan@oireachtas.ie, michael.noonan@oireachtas.ie, caoimhghin.ocaolain@oireachtas.ie, eamon.ocuiv@oireachtas.ie, batt.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie, daniel.neville@oireachtas.ie, aengus.osnodaigh@oireachtas.ie, darragh.obrien@oireachtas.ie, charlie.oconnor@oireachtas.ie, kieran.odonnell@oireachtas.ie, john.odonoghue@oireachtas.ie, fergus.odowd@oireachtas.ie, noel.oflynn@oireachtas.ie, rory.ohanlon@oireachtas.ie, willie.odea@oireachtas.ie, jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie, ned.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie, john.omahony@oireachtas.ie, maureen.osullivan@oireachtas.ie, sean.power@oireachtas.ie, brian.oshea@oireachtas.ie, christy.osullivan@oireachtas.ie, jan.osullivan@oireachtas.ie, willie.penrose@oireachtas.ie, john.perry@oireachtas.ie, mary.orourke@Oireachtas.ie, peter.power@oireachtas.ie, ruairi.quinn@oireachtas.ie, pat.rabbitte@oireachtas.ie, james.reilly@oireachtas.ie, alan.shatter@oireachtas.ie, dick.roche@oireachtas.ie, eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie, trevor.sargent@oireachtas.ie, eamon.scanlon@oireachtas.ie, michael.ring@oireachtas.ie, pj.sheehan@oireachtas.ie, sean.sherlock@oireachtas.ie, tom.sheahan@oireachtas.ie, roisin.shortall@oireachtas.ie, emmet.stagg@oireachtas.ie, david.stanton@oireachtas.ie, billy.timmins@oireachtas.ie, joanna.tuffy@oireachtas.ie, noel.treacy@oireachtas.ie, mary.upton@oireachtas.ie, michael.woods@oireachtas.ie, jack.wall@oireachtas.ie, mary.wallace@oireachtas.ie, marya.white@oireachtas.ie, leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie,
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby reddy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:06 pm

Marching may hasten a general election - personally i thought it was necessary to let the government be until the country had stabilised a bit and a direction taken to steer us out of the current mess.

With Nama in place and the new regulator installed now is a good time to think afresh about where
we want the country to go - an election would help with this thinking and maybe even see the establishment of new parties (badly needed).

Throwing our hands up in helplessness achieves nothing.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:07 pm

Andrew Duffy wrote:I still shudder thinking of the day when three heavies in cheap suits from the government, the financial regulator and the banks forced me to sign my mortgage contract.

Oh wait, no I don't, because that never happened.

The country's current economic situation is the result of the greed of every person who bought an overpriced house in the assumption it would become more so, used a credit card or personal loan to pay for a holiday or consumer good in the assumption they would earn the money to pay for it, or took an overpaid job in a construction-related industry or the bloated public service in the assumption that it had a future. The government, elected by that fraction of the public that cared to vote, enacted laws to facilitate the greed of its electorate. The Financial Regulator created a climate where the banks that fuelled our consumerism could trade easily and profitably.

Marching will achieve precisely nothing. The current government will not be returned at the next general election - the government that presides over the slide into recession never is. The Financial Regulator will not enact laws that prevent banks from trading as they wish - our greed and drive to acquire property and goods is too great.


This is about a loss of gainful employment and banks going from whoring themselves to raise their profits and bonuses - promising cheap credit and favourable payback terms - to the current draconian situation where people are facing rising interest rates, limited credit facilities and foreclosures.

Don't sit there wallowing in guilt and self-pity, or pointing the finger!
The government is elected to govern, and it has governed both unwisely and unwell.

The regulator did anything but.
The banks have acted unprofessionally towards their customers, dumping sound lending practices to go haring after Anglo selling money.

Yes, this was fuelled by a desire for money, just like protitution is fuelled by a desire for sex.
Prostitution is illegal because it tends to erode the moral fabric of society, unfashinable though it may be to say it.
How much of the fabric of society do you think this Depression will erode?

You're posting to a Forum read by professionals who are suable unto their estate if they commit a tort or a negligent act whereby others suffer.
Where is the remedy for the mountainous tort that the banks, regulator and government have perpetrated against this country?
Brian Cowan was called a "traitor" recently - undeservedly in my opinion - but that shows that feeling that is out there.

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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:10 pm

reddy wrote:Marching may hasten a general election - personally i thought it was necessary to let the government be until the country had stabilised a bit and a direction taken to steer us out of the current mess.

With Nama in place and the new regulator installed now is a good time to think afresh about where
we want the country to go - an election would help with this thinking and maybe even see the establishment of new parties (badly needed).

Throwing our hands up in helplessness achieves nothing.


I'm far from helpless, even though I am law-abiding.
Civil protest is not about helplessness, its about empowerment.

You probably don't recall Bloody Sunday or the burning of the British Embassy afterwards.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid_2758000/2758163.stm

You could argue that it solved nothing, but it sent a clear signal to those in power.
"You don't fuck with us this badly, and expect to have a house over your heads afterwards."
That's the kind of anger that arose in the 1970's a different Era entirely, but its bubbling under now.

I advocate peaceful civil protest, not burning buildings, partly as a means of expression and to defuse the situation.
Seeing how so many, many people are suffering losses, not just the profligate over-spenders, I think we need a release.

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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby reddy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:15 pm

onq wrote:I'm far from helpless, even though I am law-abiding.

Civil protest is not about helplessness, its about empowerment.

You're probably too young to remember the burning of the British Embassy.

You could argue that it solved nothing, but it sent a clear signal to those in power.

You don't fuck with us this badly, and expect to have a house over your heads afterwards.

Everyone knew the British security forces had aided and abetted the bombers with Garda cover up afterwards.

ONQ.


I agree with marching - was referring to the other poster.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:37 pm

reddy wrote:I agree with marching - was referring to the other poster.



Thanks for clarifying and marching will clear the head anyway.

BTW, I've had a few replies to my comments which I e-mailed to all the Teachta Dála e-mails.

They were mostly from Labour T.D's , which speaks volumes about those in Government, who are no doubt grappling with weighty matters.

Still, their secretaries wrote polite replies.

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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby jimg » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:40 pm

onq wrote:This is about a loss of gainful employment and banks going from whoring themselves to raise their profits and bonuses, promising cheap credit and favourable payback terms to the current draconian situation where people are facing rising interest rates and foreclosures.

Eh? This all very vague; I presume by "people" you are referring to residential mortgage holders? If I'm wrong in my interpretation, good luck organising a street protest in support of Liam Carroll, Sean Dunne, et al. Otherwise, there is no "current situation" when it comes to a residential mortgage. It has always been thus - you can't keep up the payments, you lose the collateral.

I've been a property bear for years - far before it was fashionable - and as a result I used to wince at political promises to "make it easier for first time buyer to get a foot on the ladder". Such promises were wildly popular with the general public. But now that people have lost money on their massively leveraged exposure to the Irish residential property market, they want to deny any blame whatsoever for the position they find themselves in?

It's heads I win, tails you lose. People are now starting to demand that the banks should "share the pain" of individual mortgage holders. I don't remember anyone calling for "banks to get a share the profit" made by people who's houses rose spectacularly in value over a 15 year period.

onq wrote:Yes, this was fuelled by a desire for money, just like protitution is fuelled by a desire for sex.

Prostitution is illegal because it tends to erode the moral fabric of society, unfashinable though it may be to say it.

How much of the fabric of society do you think this Depression will erode?

What are you trying to suggest here? That if we agree that prostitution is illegal to protect society, then private residential mortgages should also be made illegal for the same purpose?

I agree completely that the government's handling of the situation has been diabolical and that the banks were run recklessly and the regulator was a clown but I disagree very strongly that indebted individuals are blameless. The mob clamored for and demanded political action to support easy access to mortgages. They got what they wanted but now are demanding that in actual fact they should have been protected from themselves. Retrospectively obviously.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:49 pm

jimg wrote:Eh?...(meanderings snipped)

I agree completely that the government's handling of the situation has been diabolical and that the banks were run recklessly and the regulator was a clown but I disagree very strongly that indebted individuals are blameless. The mob clamored for and demanded political action to support easy access to mortgages. They got what they wanted but now are demanding that in actual fact they should have been protected from themselves. Retrospectively obviously.


That is not the way it works.

Professionals [and I'm not sure what profession you're in] have a duty of care to their clients.

The banks are supposed to act professionally towards their clients who may be depositors or borrowers.

They did not do so - they engaged in practices that were demonstrably insupportable, unwise and unsafe and which have demaged individuals and companies.

Your argument about sharing pain but not profit is specious, because its so easy an dobvious to turn that one on its head.

The Banks are the one's who are expecting the taxpayers and our children to share their pain, but who seldom even passed on reductions in interet rates, never mind profits.

You're glad you brought that one up now, aren't you?

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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby jimg » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:34 pm

onq wrote:That is not the way it works.

Professionals [and I'm not sure what profession you're in] have a duty of care to their clients.

The banks are supposed to act professionally towards their clients who may be depositors or borrowers.

Nice swerve there; but let's play along - do you believe clients of any commercially offered service have ANY responsibility for the results of choosing to avail of a service? Particularly when the terms of the service are so carefully and legally stipulated? It's a very simple point - people who have over-borrowed need to look at their own part in their downfall. Not a point which will please the baying mob but a reasonable one, I think.
They did not do so - they engaged in practices that were demonstrably insupportable, unwise and unsafe and which have demaged individuals and companies.

Yep and they effectively went BUST as a result. That's the way it's supposed to work when companies or individuals act in reckless fashion. By the end of all this the Irish retail banks will be a shadow of their former selves; they (like recklessly indebted individuals) are just clinging on at the moment.
Your argument about sharing pain but not profit is specious, because its so easy an dobvious to turn that one on its head.

The Banks are the one's who are expecting the taxpayers and our children to share their pain, but who seldom even passed on reductions in interet rates, never mind profits.

I think you missed the point completely. I thought it was obviously ludicrous to suggest that banks share in the profits of rising home values; the point being that it's also obviously ludicrous that they should share in the losses of falling home values. Or maybe you are a "heads I win, tails you lose" type of person?

You're glad you brought that one up now, aren't you?

ONQ.

Honestly I dunno what you mean? I know it's always a bit of a downer when you work up a head of steam and in a frenzy of indignation try to raise a mob and a couple of people wreck the mood by responding with some calm and level-headed points. Like I said, there is every reason to be mad as hell with the government, the regulator and the banks but it just looks like one-eyed b*llox when you try to claim that heavy borrowers are 100% innocent.

Oh yeah - nice snipping by the way; particularly on my response to your hysterical and ludicrous prostitution analogy.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby gunter » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:15 pm

jimg has covered some of the points, but there's one or two others

onq wrote:. . . . and banks . . . . whoring themselves to raise their profits and bonuses . . .
ONQ.


During the bubble, there were plenty in the architectural profession 'whoring themselves' to use your colourful phrase, . . . . and would probably do it all again if they got the chance.

Half the jobs that I lost in the last five years [the ones not related to gunter's poor people-skills, or just taking too long] invariably involved other architects persuading my clients that they could get more on the particular sites then I was prepared to propose. Being able to pull the wool over the planners' eyes was the currency of boom time architectural practice every bit as much as bogusly secured borrowings was the currency of the developer speculators.

'Elm Park' might be an award winning office park [sorry, sustainable mixed use eco-development], but it's also an example of tiger era architects fuelling up a speculator's rocket for him and blinding the planners with arch/eco jargon to distract them from doing their job, which was to stop this kind of drift to the margins which always happens at the expense of protecting and reinforcing the core of the city.

Before we go marching on the Dail, or pine after the days we could all pay our mortgages on time, the architectural profession could do worse than examine its own collective conscience and be honest about the real part it played in inflating the bubble.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby missarchi » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:33 pm

emails don't achieve much they can be kidnapped in flight.
Registered post is the way to go at least you get a nice golden harp letter you can frame on the wall:D

whats the password for the next election : handover:p

I'm surprised there has not been some high profile court cases...

The profession needs to look at itself in the mirror first and its own black listing...
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby teak » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:39 pm

We have all been massively wronged and should protest . . .

I would not advise it.

Whether or not individual contributors to this thread actually did show some Gombeen Jack the door when he wanted to screw up the landscape is beside the point.

Fact is the ordinary public perceive Irish architects as having had both their wallets and their vanities bloated to the moon during the last 12 years.
The BMWs, Trudy molls and pretentious talk about their "art" was enough to make anyone's blood boil.
When an Irishman goes on a binge he is supposed to put his head down and work off his guilt the following week : no excuses, face the music.
You fellas start to roll up your sleeves and do some low-budget but valuable work on local amenities and you might be excused.
Making noise about the government - much as they have it coming - will just get you classified as dossers who don't want to hack it like the rest.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby Tayto » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:39 pm

teak wrote:We have all been massively wronged and should protest . . .

I would not advise it.

Whether or not individual contributors to this thread actually did show some Gombeen Jack the door when he wanted to screw up the landscape is beside the point.

Fact is the ordinary public perceive Irish architects as having had both their wallets and their vanities bloated to the moon during the last 12 years.
The BMWs, Trudy molls and pretentious talk about their "art" was enough to make anyone's blood boil.
When an Irishman goes on a binge he is supposed to put his head down and work off his guilt the following week : no excuses, face the music.
You fellas start to roll up your sleeves and do some low-budget but valuable work on local amenities and you might be excused.
Making noise about the government - much as they have it coming - will just get you classified as dossers who don't want to hack it like the rest.


Ah yeah.... de bleedin' arcy-tects. They're all all artists all right- Piss artists. The only drawing they're doin' now is drawin' the dole. I blame everythin' on de archy-tects.

That's great. That's really perceptive. You really got to the absolute core of the Joe-Soap-man-of-the-people-salt-of-the-earth issue there with that post. Beamers? Bloated wallets? Trudy Molls?!

Hey , I reckon you've been watching too many Hollywood movies. Or reading too many editorials in Ireland's most popular daily newspaper, The Irish Sun. Or had too many barstool binge drinking sessions with Mary Coughlan, discussing the state of the nation before heading out for some arse-scratching competition.

Technically speaking, you haven't got a clue. It is quite clear that you inhabit some alternative universe and you have actually got no idea what you're talking about.

But Hey- don't let the truth get in the way of a good old-fashioned bitter Irish lazy-arsed finger pointing whine with a hint of twisted begrudrery! Sure that'd spoil all the fun!

Is it Sam Spade you think you are with yer "Trudy Moll"?

Get up the yard.



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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:53 pm

teak wrote:We have all been massively wronged and should protest . . .

I would not advise it.

Whether or not individual contributors to this thread actually did show some Gombeen Jack the door when he wanted to screw up the landscape is beside the point.

Fact is the ordinary public perceive Irish architects as having had both their wallets and their vanities bloated to the moon during the last 12 years.
The BMWs, Trudy molls and pretentious talk about their "art" was enough to make anyone's blood boil.
When an Irishman goes on a binge he is supposed to put his head down and work off his guilt the following week : no excuses, face the music.
You fellas start to roll up your sleeves and do some low-budget but valuable work on local amenities and you might be excused.
Making noise about the government - much as they have it coming - will just get you classified as dossers who don't want to hack it like the rest.


"You fellas" suggests you're not an architect Teak.

As for me, I have been doing pro-bono work continuously for my local residentas action groups from 1998-2009, resigning last March because of poor economic conditions.

We have always given unstintingly of our time to our local group and never asked for payment.

And we have always agreed pretty tight fees.
There is no binging involved in our work.

And its not just us who have been wronged.

Dream on, Teak.

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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby Smithfield Resi » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:14 pm

Councillors under pressure to rezone land for retail schemes
18 April 2010 By Niamh Connolly Political Correspondent

County councillors in south Dublin are coming under ‘‘enormous pressure’’ from developers in relation to rezoning land for retail developments, a local councillor has claimed.

Aidan Culhane, leader of the Labour Party group on Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, made the claim in relation to zoning decisions affecting developments in Carrickmines and Cherrywood.

Last week, Fine Gael councillors tabled a motion to vary the county development plan and increase the retail zoning at The Park in Carrickmines.

The motion was passed despite a ministerial direction against rezoning issued by John Gormley, the Minister for the Environment. County manager Owen Keegan is now taking legal advice on the issue.

Culhane claimed there was pressure for the motion to be passed, which raised questions about democracy. ‘‘The question is whether a developer decides on planning or whether the council decides," he said.

Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Green TD for Dublin South, described the stance taken by the Fine Gael councillors as ‘‘remarkable’’.

He said it showed that ‘‘nothing was learned from the property crash and banking crisis, which were based on obsessive construction as an economic driver’’.

Ryan said that Gormley ‘‘had set out the right planning direction’’ for the county. It is widely expected that Gormley will respond with another ministerial direction not to proceed with the council’s plan. It seeks to increase retail zoning at The Park by 10,000 square metres, while reducing retail zoning at the rival Cherrywood project by 10,000 square metres.

Fine Gael councillors Tom Joyce, Jim O’Leary, Barry Ward, John Bailey, Maria Bailey and Marie Baker favoured the change, which was passed last week 15-13.Two Fine Gael councillors, Mary Mitchell O’Connor and Donal Marren, voted against it.

‘‘I am sick of big developers ringing me on their proposals, between Carrickmines and Cherrywood," said Mitchell O’Connor, who said that large retail development affected small traders. ‘‘We’ve had 66 shops closed down in Dun Laoghaire in the last two years."

However, Fine Gael councillor Ward accused Gormley of ‘‘an act of hypocrisy’’ by stepping in after promising to empower local government on planning decisions.

He said Cherrywood would take years to complete but Carrickmines was ‘‘up and running already’’.

The Park at Carrickmines is being developed by Park Developments, which is headed by Michael Cotter. It has said it will bring in Tesco as an anchor tenant and create 800 jobs if it gets the extended retail space.

The Cherrywood development is being done by Dunloe Ewart, owned by Liam Carroll.

It has spent €28.6million on infrastructure at Cherrywood and threatened legal proceedings if the motion was passed.


http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/councillors-under-pressure-to-rezone-land-for-retail-schemes-48684.html


Have we learnt nothing in the last two years??
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby teak » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:13 am

And we have always agreed pretty tight fees.
There is no binging involved in our work.


I believe you, ONQ.
And I know some like that myself.

But that is not the point.
So many architects, civil engineers, surveyors, etc all rode the building boom like mad.
Ordinary people will not see individual good cases amongst the construction-related professions any more than they think of the odd good consultant doctor when they think of that profession in general.
It's no different for any profession.
If the good members fail to control the selfish members then they get tarred with the same brush.
Not fair, for sure. (How can a small few scattered good members repeal the very means through which the selfish members manipulate matters for their own gain - moreover when the broad mass of members are too busy or disinterested to attend meetings ? If he makes too much noise a member may be isolated and labelled . . .)
But it is part of the real world of common public opinion.

Protest along the lines that has been suggested here - letters to TDs, to the Irish Times, walking the streets under banners, etc - will just make you look like people with unreal expectations.
There really are much worse off people than architects, engineers, surveyors and so on at the present time.
Every professional person ought have the clarity of mind to see that.
Just look at the situation of itinerants in this country.
No matter how many surplus houses exist, do you think that anyone in Leinster House would give a damn if they gathered together in Kildare St and begged for a house so they could live in decency and their kids get a break in their lives ?

Being underemployed after years of constantly working against the clock is unnerving.
But is it really a failure of administration that has us in the fix we're in -- or is it our own acceptance of that same administration that put the economy before the society that has done it ?
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby hutton » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:47 am

In Japan, disgraced bankers commit hari kari; in the US they go to jail, yet in Ireland they go on holiday.

I used to protest - look back at my posts from a number of years ago and without meaning to sound egotistical, you'll see I foresaw there was going to be a collapse.

I don't protest anymore. Now I operate: I advise others to do the same. The country needs a peaceful revolution.
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby Tayto » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:21 pm

Teak: Just look at the situation of itinerants in this country.
No matter how many surplus houses exist, do you think that anyone in Leinster House would give a damn if they gathered together in Kildare St and begged for a house so they could live in decency and their kids get a break in their lives ?


The members of the Travelling Community are do not wish to be referred to as "Itinerants".
This has been the situation for at least 20 years.
Nor do they wish to have permanent residences. The preferred accomodation is a unit within a Halting site. I designed one myself in a previous office for one of the Co. Councils.
If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would have known that architects design Halting sites for the Travelling Community, including habitable units, sanitary and water services, a Community Hall, open space for horses, planting, caravan parking space and even yard space for storing scrap.

Your posts on this thread are just arrogant expressions of lazy-minded ill-informed barstool opinion, or common-or-garden begrudgery, attempting to represent the perceptions of "ordinary" people.

You have produced not one iota of evidence to back up your portrayal of a profession. That is because you don't know what you're talking about.

In order that your statements might be taken seriously, I suggest that you:

1. Post the average salary of an Irish architect for us all to see.
2. Post a list of filthy-rich opulent Irish architects. This is the perception, you say. Of the "Ordinary" people you say. Post the list. Show me the money.

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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby notjim » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:38 am

Tayto: I am amazed you managed to make an interesting and accurate post in such an unpromising thread!

You know what I think is wrong with this country: people cluttering useful and informative discussion sites with half-assed frothing-at-the-mouth half-thought-out nonsense.

Whoops - I am doing it my self now, must sit on my hands for a while, or at least until I have have something to say that I can say without spittle getting on my laptop screen. I invite you all to join me in this hand sitting!
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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:05 am

teak wrote:And we have always agreed pretty tight fees.
There is no binging involved in our work.


I believe you, ONQ.
And I know some like that myself.

But that is not the point.
So many architects, civil engineers, surveyors, etc all rode the building boom like mad.
Ordinary people will not see individual good cases amongst the construction-related professions any more than they think of the odd good consultant doctor when they think of that profession in general.
It's no different for any profession.
If the good members fail to control the selfish members then they get tarred with the same brush.
Not fair, for sure. (How can a small few scattered good members repeal the very means through which the selfish members manipulate matters for their own gain - moreover when the broad mass of members are too busy or disinterested to attend meetings ? If he makes too much noise a member may be isolated and labelled . . .)
But it is part of the real world of common public opinion.

Protest along the lines that has been suggested here - letters to TDs, to the Irish Times, walking the streets under banners, etc - will just make you look like people with unreal expectations.
There really are much worse off people than architects, engineers, surveyors and so on at the present time.
Every professional person ought have the clarity of mind to see that.
Just look at the situation of itinerants in this country.
No matter how many surplus houses exist, do you think that anyone in Leinster House would give a damn if they gathered together in Kildare St and begged for a house so they could live in decency and their kids get a break in their lives ?

Being underemployed after years of constantly working against the clock is unnerving.
But is it really a failure of administration that has us in the fix we're in -- or is it our own acceptance of that same administration that put the economy before the society that has done it ?


Teak, you couldn't be more wrong.

Many Architects did not ride the building boom - it rode them.

Most were put under huge pressure to take on work in a market suddenly flooded with jobs and clients.
At one point there was a significant glut in the market because there simply weren't enough local architects around.
Many offices borrowed, expanded and took on staff at demand driven rates just to have enough bums on seats to process the work.

In the end they were left high and dry by clients who promised payment when the boat came in, only there was always another boat on the way.
So offices went along on a rolling client debt, never actually getting paid up to date at any point and when the boom ended, clients pleaded their case.
This debt was funded by bank borrowings and the clients used the architect's offices as a form of loan facility, never paying all they owed to their architects.
This kind of abuse of provilege is common in Irish society and business and has contributed to the problem in a major way and the legislature has done SFA about it, in terms of facilitating debt recovery in a speedy manner.

The developers had a similar situation themselves, rolling profits from one scheme into the next to legally avoid paying tax and keep the party going using legal tax write offs.
If we hadn't had 20% capital gains tax and if the designated tax incentives hadn't been extended beyond 2000 circa, I am of the belief that the outrageous boom would not have occured to anything like the same degree and we would not be in the shit we are in now.
Even if both those things didn't happen, but the banks simply applied their own lending standards to borrowers, the boom would not have affected so many Joe Soaps, many of whom engaged in property speculation that otherwise would not have.

So we ended up with a lot of highly paid immigrants working in offices, but paradoxically, its this very multi-culturalism and the degradation of the Catholic Church that may allow us throw off our relatively repressed shackles and deal with the issues arising in a creative way - you only had ot look at the budding entrepresneurs on Tubridy last weekend to be impressed with the schools policy and our own home-grown talent.

However if you're looking for the people that made the killing, look at the landowners and their windfall profits from development.
No overheads, no businesses to run, money in the bank -oops - nope, they didn't really get to keep any of it either, but that's another story.

So teak, if you have anything other than off-the-top-of-your-head trolling to contribute to this thread, please do so.
Fee figures are available from the RIAI, but only statistically for their Members, and as such aren't backed up by transparent reporting.
My fee figures have never approached 20% or anything like it, even on the biggest private house we've ever done, for our wealthiest client.
Conversely, architects quoting stratospheric figures on once-off time-consuming work may not reflect the general fee level attracted to an office.
And if they did make a buck, good luck to them, because judging from the disaster we are facing in the profession, they were few and far between.

As we used say in the Newsgroups PPOSTFU.

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Re: We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Postby onq » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:08 am

BTW teak, looking again at your comments, it really boils down to support for a FF government.

You're not an FF shill, are you, sent to monitor disgruntled Architects' forums?

Just asking, because your comments about travellers are something I'd expect from an off duty Garda in the 1980's or a politician with a country base.

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