Temporary Planning Permission

Temporary Planning Permission

Postby Gerard G » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:22 pm

I recently obtained planning permission for a new business I plan to open. However my pp contains a condition limiting the permission to 2 years. During the 2 year period the Council will monitor the traffic impact of my business on the surrounding area and I will have to reapply for permission after 2 years.
The temporary nature of my planning is causing me huge problem as no Bank or Investor will put up the neccessary finances for a business that may be forced to close after 2 years.
I had not previously come across the issue of temporary plannings. How common are they ?
Is there any way of getting such a condition removed ? ( without going down the Bord Pleanala route which takes forever ).
I have discussed the matter with the Planners but they seem to have no grasp of the implications of such a condition on the viability of any business.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby DOC » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:26 am

I've heard of similar in the recent weeks (maybe it's you?), afaik, a creche in a shopping centre recently also given a 2 year temporary permission basically to see how it goes. I can sort of understand the rational of it, but from a business point of view, it's crazy, i.e. who would do a proper fit out or a bank will probably not lend money to a business that may only be around for 2 years!

I think your only hope is to appeal to ABP. Once a decision is made by a LA, it cannot simply be reversed. Alternatively you could try and discuss further with planners and make a new planning application.
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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby onq » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:56 am

GerardG,

+1 what Doc has said and I note the following:

The only time I have come across this it was for a new entrance that was demonstrably sub-standard in terms of sightlines, right beside a junction that already supported hazardous turning movements.

In other words, the local authority were trying to be nice to the applicant and cover themselves at the same time, working on an evidence-based aproach as opposed to simply shutting the door based on a "first principles" assessment.

You are presenting very limited information.

You are making a case for your business, and I accept what you say, but am I correct in assuming that your proposed development may produce an intensification of use in an environment where either amenity or safety could be disimproved by it?

If so, a temporary or limited permission may be all you can achieve there.

On the other hand, if the local authority is being "picky" you could try lodging for permission again.

You can retain someone like a transportation and planning consultant to perform a mobility management study and isse a report, you may either persuade them to grant you a permission or persuade An Bórd Pleanála to determine an Appeal in your favour.

If you're within the 4 week appeal period now and a consultant will take on the work you could appeal this current decision.

If traffic isn't the main issue disregard my comments above.

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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby Gerard G » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:44 pm

Thanks for the responses.
Some further information.
I am not the person hoping to open a creche.
I am planning to invest € 200k approx. into the fit out of the building - therefore without full pp it appears to be a non runner. The building previously had pp for retail and I applied for change of use to leisure.
ong you are correct in the sense that the Planners are claiming that the proposed development may lead to increased traffic volumes and therefore increased safety concerns for pedestrians. While I don't neccessarialy disagree with this reasoning I would have thought that these should be matters for the Council to address as it is not within my power to do anything about these issues, eg put in a pedestrian crossing, parking restrictions, etc.
I have already incurred substantial expense in preparing drawings, applying for change of use pp, applying for a fire cert., etc and am reluctant to take on consultants to do traffic management studies if it can be avoided.
As far as I am aware I am the first commercial venture in my local authority area to have a temporary planning condition imposed.
However, in the past week I have become aware of somebody in a neighbouring local authority area who applied for an accomodation type business having a similar condition attached to their pp. They now find themselves in a similar position to myself in that they are unable to proceed with their proposed business.
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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby tommyt » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:55 pm

Gerard G wrote:Thanks for the responses.
Some further information.
I am not the person hoping to open a creche.
I am planning to invest € 200k approx. into the fit out of the building - therefore without full pp it appears to be a non runner. The building previously had pp for retail and I applied for change of use to leisure.
ong you are correct in the sense that the Planners are claiming that the proposed development may lead to increased traffic volumes and therefore increased safety concerns for pedestrians. While I don't neccessarialy disagree with this reasoning I would have thought that these should be matters for the Council to address as it is not within my power to do anything about these issues, eg put in a pedestrian crossing, parking restrictions, etc.
I have already incurred substantial expense in preparing drawings, applying for change of use pp, applying for a fire cert., etc and am reluctant to take on consultants to do traffic management studies if it can be avoided.
As far as I am aware I am the first commercial venture in my local authority area to have a temporary planning condition imposed.
However, in the past week I have become aware of somebody in a neighbouring local authority area who applied for an accomodation type business having a similar condition attached to their pp. They now find themselves in a similar position to myself in that they are unable to proceed with their proposed business.


Gerard- without knowing the full details of your case I would deduce from your info so far that:

The planners didn't have the balls to refuse outright in the current climate but may have wanted to do so.

The traffic dept. didn't review your application propoerly and so you did not receive a propoer Further Information request that would have potentially allowed you to address the traffic shortcomings of the proposal.

It is within the local authorities power to essentially make you go away and do their work. i.e hire a consultanat that will address the deficiencies in the local highway network.

Your partners have either been poorly advised by their consultants or thought they could get the job done on the cheap and ignore these issues that led to a useless grant of PP.

Unfortunately for you its not that unusal and it doesn't sound like an appeal is the route to follow- you may be better off overseeing a new application is submitted that can address the issues raised.
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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby PVC King » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:32 pm

There are one of two reasons for the refusal; they either don't wan't more licensed premises or as Tommy said they feel that the specific immediate area has traffic or pedestrian safety issues. If it is the former the logical thing would be to simply select another opportunity but to tease it out; I'd get a consultant to meet with them to see if specific contributions to specific measures could be agreed e.g. €10,000 towards a pedestrian crossing; if so it is a simple case of pricing the measures and working them into your viability analysis for the project. The only inherent risk is that the council grant PP, take the contribution and don't do the works; when you apply for your license in the district court the absent safety measure could be used by objectors.
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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby Solo » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:45 pm

Gerard G wrote:I recently obtained planning permission for a new business I plan to open. However my pp contains a condition limiting the permission to 2 years. During the 2 year period the Council will monitor the traffic impact of my business on the surrounding area and I will have to reapply for permission after 2 years.
The temporary nature of my planning is causing me huge problem as no Bank or Investor will put up the neccessary finances for a business that may be forced to close after 2 years.
I had not previously come across the issue of temporary plannings. How common are they ?
Is there any way of getting such a condition removed ? ( without going down the Bord Pleanala route which takes forever ).
I have discussed the matter with the Planners but they seem to have no grasp of the implications of such a condition on the viability of any business.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



Temp planning permissions are actually quite common. I have received many over the years. They allow the LA and the neighbours to monitor the development and to assess if the development will actually create the harm objectors or a planners thinks it might. All of my temps have been in relation to a crèche in a residential area or a business in a semi rural area. If it is any consolation on reapplication at the end of the temp period all were granted permanently.

If I were you I would take the approval because a temp permission usually indicates that the planner is trying to be fair to both the applicant and either existing or possible objectors. Take the permission operate the business and ensure that it is run properly. If you do this you should have no problems on re-application.
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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby DOC » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:07 am

Good advice Solo, but I think the big issue with regard to temporary planning permissions is the investment of money. If you are going to the bank for a loan to fit out a premises for a business they only has a gauranteed lifespan of 2 years, you've virtually no hope of getting money I'd suggest!
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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby onq » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:08 pm

Gerard G wrote:Thanks for the responses.
Some further information.
I am not the person hoping to open a creche.
I am planning to invest € 200k approx. into the fit out of the building - therefore without full pp it appears to be a non runner. The building previously had pp for retail and I applied for change of use to leisure.
ong you are correct in the sense that the Planners are claiming that the proposed development may lead to increased traffic volumes and therefore increased safety concerns for pedestrians. While I don't neccessarialy disagree with this reasoning I would have thought that these should be matters for the Council to address as it is not within my power to do anything about these issues, eg put in a pedestrian crossing, parking restrictions, etc.
I have already incurred substantial expense in preparing drawings, applying for change of use pp, applying for a fire cert., etc and am reluctant to take on consultants to do traffic management studies if it can be avoided.
As far as I am aware I am the first commercial venture in my local authority area to have a temporary planning condition imposed.
However, in the past week I have become aware of somebody in a neighbouring local authority area who applied for an accomodation type business having a similar condition attached to their pp. They now find themselves in a similar position to myself in that they are unable to proceed with their proposed business.


GerardG,

The money you have expended may be considerable to you, but going for a fire cert before you had the permission in the bag seems a little premature - and yes, I accept that your designer had to know the change of use would work and that some items covered by the fire cert would need to be included in the PP, but you get my drift.

If this temporary permission came out of the blue, I sympathise, but the other comments I made stand, perhaps now more than ever. If you don't get a first principles permission you will have a lot of "minding" to do of your patrons [you don't need any bad reports going to the local authority for bad road behaviour] and you may also require to second guess the monitoring done by the local authority - it will be all too easy for someone to mistake sole-end user trip your traffic flow incorrectly.

My experience of traffic consultants is that they can perform economically and I had to use one both times I went for a change of use from light industrial to retail warehousing in the past two years - we simply wouldn't have gotten the clean permissions we did both times without them.

Am I also right in assuming that you were in fact asked to submit traffic mobility and parking studies as part of the application and simply didn't or else used your architect to "fudge" a submission? This sometimes occurs and where clients fail to act as requested, a limited permission of refusal can be the result. If not please disregard thsi last comment.

Regardless of this, on matters outside your direct control, but which may need to be improved in the area, washing your hands of them on the basis that you cannot do them is only a means of shooting yourself on a well-exercised foot. Far better would be to agree a contribution level you can work with and hope the LA will play ball if such improvements are deemed necessary to achieving your permission - otherwise you'll be in a Catch-22 situation.

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Re: Temporary Planning Permission

Postby onq » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:13 pm

DOC wrote:Good advice Solo, but I think the big issue with regard to temporary planning permissions is the investment of money. If you are going to the bank for a loan to fit out a premises for a business they only has a gauranteed lifespan of 2 years, you've virtually no hope of getting money I'd suggest!


+1, Unless you can couch the application in terms of a two year return.
This may even be advisable in terms of structuring the lease, to invoke a break-clause with upward and downward rates reviews, and there may be a way of agreeing this with the landlord in these straitened times - i.e. a deferral of the first year amount or part of it against any upgrading or fit-out works undertaken.

I think its a buyers market out there, and I think all the work needs to be done on the property side of accommodate the restriction - or else sufficient information needs to be lodged to persuade the LA everything will be fine.

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