Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Yixian » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:45 pm

2016 is around the corner and civic squares aren't an uncommon way to celebrate such national centenaries. Dublin still lacks any real central square and the docklands plans for "The Parlour", a rectangular wall of shipping containers, isn't exactly going to set the city, let alone the country or world alight...

There had been talk in the last few years of pedestrianising College Green. The gov have already experimented with the bus corridor and hopefully around 2016 there will be the MN/DARTu "Dublin Metro", making it easier than ever to go ahead and transform the area around TCD and the Bank of Ireland into Ireland's national civi plaza, "on a par with the Piazza Maggiore in Bologna".

It has been proposed by TCD and Ciarán Cuffe (perhaps a candidate for the first Dublin mayor elections?).

In my opinion it's time to bring this back on the agenda, it's entirely doable, very much needed and would be a great addition to the city for 2016.

Image

Image

Look at the space you're working with... a plaza here would be beautiful.

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If you're with me, I've set up a facebook group to support the idea, it's about time the city had some solid plans for 2016 and this would be a great one: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=360647236698
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby missarchi » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:56 pm

some other ideas...

Image
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Yixian » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:18 pm

Very nice!
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby SeamusOG » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:59 pm

The tradition on Archiseek seems to be to develop old threads related to the topic in question, where possible. I'm sure there is already a College Green thread, somewhere.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby OisinT » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:26 pm

missarchi wrote:some other ideas...

Image

That's actually really cool. I'd be in for it, but they'd need to figure out a way so that traffic could still get where it needs to go and have a good underground/overground (luas) system in place.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby notjim » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:03 am

Seamus O'G wrote:The tradition on Archiseek seems to be to develop old threads related to the topic in question, where possible. I'm sure there is already a College Green thread, somewhere.


http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3377
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby cgcsb » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:32 pm

Love it, although I'd like to see what the alternative route for traffic will be. It will never happen of course because it's very adventurous and any sort of creativity doesn't cut it in Ireland. My faith was lost in this country when ABP insisted on scaling the size of the main enterence into Dublin Central from a grand public walkway to a narrow gap between two buildins with sharp corners on either side, pitiful.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby kinsella » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:26 pm

I think that any future scheme for the pedestrianisation of College Green does, almost, cry out for a fountain, of some sort, to be included.

In addition, what would be the chances that the area in front of the House of Lords entrance of the Bank of Ireland, would be included in any pedestrianisation?
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Yixian » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:29 pm

kinsella wrote:I think that any future scheme for the pedestrianisation of College Green does, almost, cry out for a fountain, of some sort, to be included.

In addition, what would be the chances that the area in front of the House of Lords entrance of the Bank of Ireland, would be included in any pedestrianisation?


Is that the entrance facing Pearse Street? If so, almost 0% - the road would presumably turn directly into Pearse St, which would become 2 way, for this to work.

And yes, it'd be tragic to build this without a fountain. It doesn't have to be huge, I think the most important point is you want to fill the square with that wonderful sound of running, cascading water. So atmospheric.

Perhaps something low lying like this? So as not to obscure the architectural views:

Image
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby OisinT » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:11 pm

cgcsb wrote:Love it, although I'd like to see what the alternative route for traffic will be.


I was thinking, include Grafton Street outside TCD in the plaza. Somehow make St. Andrew Street wider and 2 way. Then, rather than make Pearse St. 2 way the whole way down, improve Fleet/Townsend Street as 1 way the opposite way. Of course, have luas running through the plaza and a good dublinbikes station and it wouldn't disrupt traffic too much. How the buses would divert is beyond me though!?

Here's a quick sketch of what I mean:

Image
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby notjim » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:52 pm

OisinT wrote:I was thinking, include Grafton Street outside TCD in the plaza. Somehow make St. Andrew Street wider and 2 way. Then, rather than make Pearse St. 2 way the whole way down, improve Fleet/Townsend Street as 1 way the opposite way.


I hope this is a joke

1) road-widening - widening St Andrew St - are you insane?
2) urban streets wider than one lane should be two way, end of story.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby cgcsb » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:55 pm

Andrew St is not suitable at all for two way traffic, it can barely get one bus down it, it's also very steep, far too dangerous for a one way system. To make this happen, it will require a hard engineering solution, like a tunnel.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby OisinT » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:43 pm

notjim wrote:I hope this is a joke

1) road-widening - widening St Andrew St - are you insane?
2) urban streets wider than one lane should be two way, end of story.


Yes, I am insane - posting this from Dundrum actually! Your ability to spot my illness is amazing... but your grasp on the meaning of the word insane is, however, slim at best.

1) only a suggestion, and without actually going out and surveying the street could either of us know that it is possible or not. While it is highly likely that it would be impossible impractical, one has to start somewhere.
2) yes, as notjim declares all streets wider than one lane should be two way, so it shall be. How is that working out for you thus far?


As for tunnel, that'll probably never happen - barring some other more practical solution I'd say that makes this idea void ab initio.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby notjim » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:04 pm

1) It can't be widened without knocking buildings and anyway any urban scheme which involves widening roads for traffics is by definition insane.
2) Very well, the two way streets, sadly not universal, are much kinder on pedestrians, cyclists and other urban users.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby cgcsb » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:31 am

Andrew street is narrow, it has a very pleasant atmosphere, it's very narrow, why destroy it by widening the carriageway? It would never work, a new solution needs to be found,

I'm not attacking your idea by any means, but from a civil engineering point of view, it is a non starter, a tunnel would be a runner, but very expensive and time consuming, I'm sure a simpler traffic solution will be met. I think buses should share space with luas and there should be 2 bus lanes maintained through college green between trinners and dame st.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby notjim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:51 am

The whole philosophy is wrong: the idea isn't to try to cope with the same traffic and think of distructive or expensive ways to hack out a little car free space so it can be decorated with prissy features, the goal is to get heavy traffic completely the fuck out of the city center where it has no business being.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby cgcsb » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:14 pm

notjim wrote:The whole philosophy is wrong: the idea isn't to try to cope with the same traffic and think of distructive or expensive ways to hack out a little car free space so it can be decorated with prissy features, the goal is to get heavy traffic completely the fuck out of the city center where it has no business being.


what would you suggest?
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby cgcsb » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:40 pm

If the flow of Anglesea street were reversed, traffic coming from O'Connell Bridge should turn from D'olier st onto fleet street (Fleet Street needs to be resurfaced) across Westmoreland street down past the Thunderoad and left onto Anglesea street where there will be right turns only

Those wishing to travel towards O'Connell street from the Patrick St/ Christchurch direction should divert via Winetavern street and head east along the quays.

Get rid of the taxi rank on College Green, Get rid of the taxi rank on Grafton Street (beside Molly Malone)

Allow busses and luas through college green only. change Nassau street to busses and Luas only.

Pedestrianise Suffolk St. and reverse the flow of Andrew street between Trinity St and the Enfo centre.

This will allow north bound busses to take a more direct route (via grafton st).

Pedestrianise the part of Westmoreland St. south of the bag shop, and allow traffic to turn right onto Westmoreland from college street.

Reduce the width of Westmoreland Street from 5 lanes to, say 3, to accomidate Northbound luas and buses as well as widening the pavement on the west side of Westmoreland st.

Sacrifice one lane on O'Connell Bridge for widening the footpath on the west side.

This will improve the experience of walking between the Henry and Grafton Street shopping areas significantly
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby notjim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:42 pm

cgcsb wrote:what would you suggest?


What the council seems to be doing, but perhaps too slowly; the gradual re-routing of traffics away from the whole urban core through a series of incremental and small measures, banning this turn or that, widening that footpath or this, banning non-bus traffic here and there and hopefully, eventually, changing road to streets by making them two-way, with generous footpaths and leisurely pedestrian lights. We don't need a grand scheme to make a small traffic free space in the midst of traffic hell, we need to radically reduce the amount of traffic.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:54 pm

cgcsb wrote:what would you suggest?


I'd suggest pedestrianizing everything between High St/Patrick St., Kevin St., Dawson St., and the Quays. Phase one of a long-term plan to pedestrianize everything between the Canals, replacing cars with rail and trams. Christchurch and College Green become city squares, and Dame Street linking them becomes a long pedestrianized centre of focus in Dublin, like the Royal Mile in Edinburgh.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby pulp » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:58 pm

Yixian, you have my full support for pedestrian college green but the key problem with Dublin is how people move about. Unlike most cities in the world Dublin is massively dependent on the motor vehicle and i cant see college green being given back to the people until this is resolved. Then lower grafton st, college green, westmoreland street and possibly even Dame st could all be pedestrianised. Dublin once had one of the finest tram systems in the world but since independence we have added very little to this system and destroyed an awful lot that was excellent
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby cgcsb » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:25 pm

rumpelstiltskin wrote:I'd suggest pedestrianizing everything between High St/Patrick St., Kevin St., Dawson St., and the Quays. Phase one of a long-term plan to pedestrianize everything between the Canals, replacing cars with rail and trams. Christchurch and College Green become city squares, and Dame Street linking them becomes a long pedestrianized centre of focus in Dublin, like the Royal Mile in Edinburgh.


That's far too extreme, everything inside the canals? including the suburban housing estates of Cabra? come off it. There is no need for pedestrianisation on that scale.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby Yixian » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:28 pm

pulp wrote:Yixian, you have my full support for pedestrian college green but the key problem with Dublin is how people move about. Unlike most cities in the world Dublin is massively dependent on the motor vehicle and i cant see college green being given back to the people until this is resolved. Then lower grafton st, college green, westmoreland street and possibly even Dame st could all be pedestrianised. Dublin once had one of the finest tram systems in the world but since independence we have added very little to this system and destroyed an awful lot that was excellent


I wouldn't suggest doing this before DARTu/MN come into play, but when they do there'll be no excuse anymore not to force heavy traffic out of the centre of Dublin as has been done in near enough every other European capital to great success.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby pulp » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:33 am

Some of the streets such as College Green, Dame St, Westmoreland street could be fully pedestranised while Dawson street et all could be open to traffic but made so awkward that most would avoid it but once there is an alternative to getting in and around the city which is still a longe way off at the moment. This could be a wonderful city if it was freed up from traffic and we started to think big. Think of all those European cities full of narrow cobbled streets where people are very happy to live, work and socialise all within walking and cycling distance. How is this made possible? the absence of traffic belching out noxious fumes, filling the city air our lungs and staining our buildings, threatening people with every turn.
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Re: Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Postby cgcsb » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:04 pm

I don't think Westmoreland St and Dame st warrent pedestrianisation. They are both very wide and could be very useful from a traffic management perspective. That being said Westmoreland st needs it's western footpath widened by at least one traffic lane and there needs to be dedicated space to northbound bus/luas
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