Carlton Cinema Development

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby missarchi » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:57 am

rumpelstiltskin wrote:It's a common motif with big projects


agreed...
In a way I admire differences but at the same time the compromises can be hurtful and helpful and incomplete...
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby gunter » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:49 am

GrahamH wrote:. . . .Architects come back with a thoroughly dismal redesign that could not express in bricks and mortar the concept of a mean-spirited, begrudging sulk any more if it tried.


It does certainly look like that.

Sometimes you do get so fed up and frustrated with Planners that you do mentally say: ok if you don't want architecture and you want crap, I'll give you crap. Architecture is a creative process after all and when you can't get people to share your vision, hissy-fits are almost inevitable.

As I've said many times before 'in-fill' is a very difficult architectural challenge and one that, in my experience, the schools often avoid confronting in the training programmes.

It has to be said that the guys who designed this scheme did come up with a considerable amount of originality . . . . on two occassions. That's enormously to their credit. It's easy to chuckle at the bad bits and scoff at aspects of the design that we don't agree with [of which there were many], but there was a lot of architecture in those first two versions, which we probably didn't acknowledge as much as we should have.

Agreed that Bord Pleanala will need to be at the top of their game to conjure up anything like a satisfactory outcome out of this.

rumpelstiltskin wrote:These are some of the problems:
-There is inconsistency in deciding what is appropriate for Dublin's streetscapes. An Bord Pleanala and DCC are not on the same page, and the latter do not even adhere to their own guidelines.
-Dublin City Council seem content to grant permission to crude projects if they're exciting enough.
-An Bord Pleanala gets the final say, and it's more concerned with maintaining the blandness of Dublin, than with ensuring innovative and exciting architecture.

The system doesn't work. Nobody is ensuring the architectural quality of the buildings granted permission. An Bord Pleanala operates like a damage limitation team, trying desperately to hold on to the limited heritage left in Dublin, rather than creating an innovative fusion of old and new. In my view, the guidelines about building in areas like O'Connell St. need to be less restrictive, both for ABP and DCC, and the counterbalance needs to be that the whole process is overseen by some sort of architectural quality board, which will have a coherent and forward-thinking vision for Dublin. It is, after all, the capital.


rumpel has some good points there which might be lost with the page break.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby OisinT » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:04 pm

If there was so much disagreement about the park in the sky, why didn't they just get rid or scale back the park in the sky and keep the rest of the scheme the way it was. The original design of the carlton façade was much better and effectively mixed modern architecture and construction with the traditional Carlton.

This new thing is awful.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby JoePublic » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:02 pm

JoePublic wrote:I don't see why they changed the carlton facade proposal from the second incarnation, as still seen (for the time being) on http://www.dublincentral.ie. I know setbacks are none too popular on archiseek, but its gotta be better than that boxy shite


To answer my own question, it's because of this condition from ABP:

12. Redesign the buildings to each side of the entrance from O'Connell Street to the new street to provide a more composed treatment, generally using a limited and traditional palette of materials, paying appropriate respect to the relocated Carlton facade. The height of the Carlton/new department store may be of a scale to reflect its increased significance


They were asked for shite so they gave shite. What a dumb condition.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby gunter » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:35 am

They're giving us this:

Image

JoePublic wrote:. . . . because of this condition from ABP:

The height of the Carlton/new department store may be of a scale to reflect its increased significance.



So that extra storey on top of the relocated Carlton facade is someone's interpretation of a Bord Pleanála suggestion . . . . with all the depth of architectural conviction that that implies :rolleyes:

To have started out with such high ambitions and to have ended up here, is pretty depressing. How would you even begin to write planning conditions that would put architecture back into this scheme?

It would probably be better, at this stage, if ABP just refused the whole thing on the simple grounds that the scheme is below the standard demanded by the civic significance of the location.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby thebig C » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:58 am

Really really dreadful! I could go into more detail regarding its awfulness but I just can't be bothered.

This whole process whereby developers prevaricate and Planning Authorities impose spurious "visual" conditions remind me of two previous blights on Dublins built fabric.

Firstly, The ILAC centre. The developers swept away a charming warren of streets only to get cold feet with the economy wobbling in the late 1970s. Their original urban scaled plans were dropped and we ended up with a single storey outer suburban strip mall plonked beside our capitals main street.

Secondly, after permitting and indeed participating in the wanton destruction of Georgian Dublin, the council insisted that all new buildings be in "Georgian style" pastiche crap! Short of a complete reconstruction a la what happened in Europe post WWII, they could have made the best of a bad situation and encouraged architects to experiment with modern architecture. But instead, architects were straight-jacketed to build only in redbrick, with uniform windows.

Both of these examples seem apt with the Carlton site. Nice to see we have learned from history!!

C
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:27 pm

You're the Big Cahuna!
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby bal73 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:32 pm

thebig C wrote:Really really dreadful! I could go into more detail regarding its awfulness but I just can't be bothered.

This whole process whereby developers prevaricate and Planning Authorities impose spurious "visual" conditions remind me of two previous blights on Dublins built fabric.

Firstly, The ILAC centre. The developers swept away a charming warren of streets only to get cold feet with the economy wobbling in the late 1970s. Their original urban scaled plans were dropped and we ended up with a single storey outer suburban strip mall plonked beside our capitals main street.

Secondly, after permitting and indeed participating in the wanton destruction of Georgian Dublin, the council insisted that all new buildings be in "Georgian style" pastiche crap! Short of a complete reconstruction a la what happened in Europe post WWII, they could have made the best of a bad situation and encouraged architects to experiment with modern architecture. But instead, architects were straight-jacketed to build only in redbrick, with uniform windows.

Both of these examples seem apt with the Carlton site. Nice to see we have learned from history!!

C

The new proposal includes for streets namely Moore Lane and most of Henry Place being completely demolished and rebuilt in paving with ultraviolet light strips!! histrical street pattern retained as per request of ABP? DCC and ABP have destroyed enough of Dublin the public should see the demolition plan with this submission, 90% of the block is being demolished
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby jesus_o_murchu » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 pm

GrahamH wrote:So I think it is agreed amongst pretty much everyone - and from all ends of the architecture and planning spectrum on this website - that this is categorically not what O'Connell Street and this new city quarter warrants or deserves in design terms. Therefore a systems failure has to be identified, either in our planning process or in the architectural profession, or both.

Developers and some architects have often been heard in recent years waxing on about overly-prescriptive planning laws, yet surely the outcome of the above is precisely the result of a lack of clout and clarity in planning policy? Or more pointedly, the erroneous interpretation of planning policy? Alternatively, one can argue that the relative 'freedom' offered by planners in this case was to enable architects to come up with imaginative and creative design solutions in accordance with best design practice. Architects, after all, know best when it comes to design - right? Why shouldn't they be given the rudder on this one? Logic would dictate that they should.

The reality is that we see both professions culpable in this:

In spite of some worthy Additional Information modifications made by Dubln City Council, an effectively illegal interpretation of the O'Connell Street ACA under the 2000 Planning Act led to the initial grant for the scheme by DCC: -1 for planners.

The initial proposal was over-scaled, crudely integrated with its host environment and ignorant of existing building grain and street patterns: -1 to architects, and -1 to planners for granting it.

An Bord Pleanála then gets called in to clean up the mess as usual. They enforce planning policy and civic design character by decree - hardly the best method of producing creative design solutions: both +1 and -1 to the planning system.

Architects come back with a thoroughly dismal redesign that could not express in bricks and mortar the concept of a mean-spirited, begrudging sulk any more if it tried. The O'Connell Street frontage attempts little distinguished sense of urbanity or clarity of expression, never mind anything that approaches a civic-minded outlook for the first major intervention on the capital's main throughfare in nearly a century: -1 to architects

An Bord Pleanála now reassesses, and grants permission on the basis of a raft of conditional redesign measures that attempt to address the refusal of the promoters to engage in a meaningful manner with the critical planning and design issues at stake. The result is a compromise that does nobody any favours, and where the energy that is expended in the whole arduous process would have been immeasurably better spent concentrated on a thoughtful and engaging urban design proposal - critically, had the guidance been there from the outset.


'Systems failure' - I agree wholeheartedly with this point. At the root of this failure is the archaic culture of the built environment professions and the weakness of local government.

Primary role of plannners in Ireland: to draw up a development plan for the city every 6 years and to regulate development proposals, based on the zoning map and standards listed in the plan. (little or no design training required; hence lack of any interest/involvement from architects in the drawing up of plans and assessing developments; antipathy between professions and difficulty speaking on the same wavelength).

Primary role of planners in continental Europe
: to initiate, steer and coordinate proposals (as well as regulate). Design training prerequisite; high % of architects specialise in planning/urban design during last years of primary degree. High % architects hired in public sector.

Tho get us out of such disillusionment, confusion and antipathy between planners/architects/ABP/DCC/developers, etc the city needs a comprehensive strategic spatial plan which would incorporate pilot projects, mechanisms for delivery, monitoring, etc. A more public sector-oriented process with proactive planners and architects working in tandem to entice investors into building the right projects would go some way to reconcile the 'adversarial' nature of planning that is embedded in our culture.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby gunter » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:11 am

+1

. . . . as they say in these parts
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:26 pm

There's literally no possible way they could build such a thing on the country's premier street.. is there?
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby tommyt » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:21 am

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/232347.htm

granted PP yesterday. Hopefuly get time to read the conditions later.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:16 pm

tommyt wrote:http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/232347.htm

granted PP yesterday. Hopefuly get time to read the conditions later.


I no longer have any respect for ABP, they are quite literally the single worst influence on Dublin.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby markpb » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:20 pm

Why was the Royal Dublin hotel knocked before planning for this was granted? Are they not part of the same scheme? I hope something progresses because one giant hole on the street is bad enough but a second is worse.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:01 pm

The Royal Dublin is a separate application for a new headquarters for Dublin Bus to replace the one being demolished.

All very standard conditions. A couple of minor changes to the Carlton building and the link to Moore Street. What a depressing outcome. And what a waste of time (a lot of time) and money. Its not just an indictment of our flawed planning system but of the paucity of imagination of architects and the crude understanding of city making by the aparatchiks of Wood Quay.

The only good thing to come from this is that it will probably never be built. However, expect demolitions to take place....just in case.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:34 pm

StephenC wrote:The only good thing to come from this is that it will probably never be built


What makes you think that? The wheels seem in motion now..

5 years of a demolition zone half way down OCS while people actually design a decent development would be preferable to that absolute shrine of mediocrity.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:40 pm

Yixian wrote:What makes you think that? The wheels seem in motion now...


Where do you think Joe O'Reilly is going to get the €1 billion to build the thing?
How likely do you think John Lewis are to set up shop in Dublin in this climate? Remember no anchor, no development.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Bago » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:29 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0327/1224267172959.html
is this the same plan? Doesn't seem to be any of the street in the original, just a covered arcade running back to Moore st with glass canopy over half of moore st, although image doesn't appear in link. It's rather depressing to think what could become of the area, like it or loathe it, moore st has developed organically and i love this street, probably one of the most interesting in Dublin, i'd love to see the streets behind redeveloped into a high density residential area, a warren of small independent shops and restaurants like you'd find off las ramblas or tokyo backstreets. But no, the british high street's gonna punch it's way through to the ilac mall dressed in chrome, glass, aluminium and every sterile contemporary accessary going.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:03 am

StephenC wrote:Where do you think Joe O'Reilly is going to get the €1 billion to build the thing?
How likely do you think John Lewis are to set up shop in Dublin in this climate? Remember no anchor, no development.


Praise be to the recession!
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby cgcsb » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:41 pm

it said there will be a straight through pedestrian route between O'Connell and Moore st. and both entrences will have square edges, which will hinder pedestrian movement. I'd prefere a corved entrence and a curved walkway between the two streets, it gives the impression of a longer street, and adds some ambience.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Bago » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:54 pm

The plan in the irish times would give the impression the pedestrian route is through the entrance of the carlton.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Maskhadov » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:15 pm

Im glad they got the green light, 5 stories is enough for O Connell street !
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby OisinT » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:23 pm

is there any way to see what this proposal looks like?
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby tomtdowling » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:34 pm

The design approved by An Bord Pleanála is conservative a real opportunity was lost to add something that would bring focus to O'Connell, the original design without the sky park was much more exciting.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Tayto » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:53 pm

Bago wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0327/1224267172959.html
..... ......., moore st has developed organically and i love this street, probably one of the most interesting in Dublin, i'd love to see the streets behind redeveloped into a high density residential area, a warren of small independent shops and restaurants like you'd find off las ramblas or tokyo backstreets. But no, the british high street's gonna punch it's way through to the ilac mall dressed in chrome, glass, aluminium and every sterile contemporary accessary going.


Yes, I agree.
Moore St. cetainly has developed organically with all dem apples, oranges, peaches, pears and bananas.
I think the design should be organically sustainable, with lots of authentic historical ruins, tastefully decorated with ivy and with some nice sepia-tinted framed photographs.
There should be lots of bunny rabbits, like in the books. It should smell nice as well and have lots of fluffy bits. I certainly hope they don't let in any of those nasty northsiders with their horses and smelly tracksuits! :eek:
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