Developments in Cork

[MrX]

Is there any chance we can not do the 82 page thread thing again ?

It's almost impossible to follow!

There's an entire forum dedicated to Cork. It'd be great if people would actually start new threads for each topic rather than this collective stream of consciousness thing!

[lawyer]

Would anyone estimate the number of developments that would have taken place in Cork during the boom years if not for the intervention of that faceless body An Taisce?

[johnglas]

Possibly a mirror image of the question about just how much further Cork would have been trashed had it not been for the intervention, etc.

[kite]

Would anyone estimate the number of developments that would have taken place in Cork during the boom years if not for the intervention of that faceless body An Taisce?

The question should be how many more ghost estates would have been built in Cork if not for the intervention of An Taisce and CSD.

[who_me]

The thing that I find funny is - many people (including myself) mocked the government for not keeping up to speed with all the new developments; not having the roads, transport options, schools, utilities and all amenities and infrastructure etc. in place when the developments were completed.

Yet, imagine just how worse a state the economy would be in now if beside every ghost estate around the country, there was an empty school, and unused stretch of motorway, a half-finished light rail line, an empty hospital etc. ?

[Pug]

i think your points re transport options etc next to estates was right so i wouldnt agree, i think you (and me and many others ) were absolutely dead right to mock the government as to the building of estates without any infrastructure. I think your original point was more that infrastructure should have been in place, of a size, which corresponded to the population estimates of whatever new estates etc had been put in place nearby. Which blatantly wasnt done. Put it this way, I live in carrigaline, population has exploded in recent years. No changes to transport so when the traffic from dunkettle is bad, it backs up the N28, which wasnt designed to cope with the level of cars, so it takes an hour or more some mornings to get in to Cork City. Which is stunningly appalling. Whats being done about it? Nothing. A study was done in 2007. Still no action.

[reddy]

I see your point but look at it this way - Like you said - this infrastructure should have been in place before this stuff was built - if this had been adhered to then maybe the government and local authorities would have realised the absolutely unsustainable folly our planning system allowed (perhaps that should be encouraged?).

So I reckon we were right to shout. Pity they didn't listen.

[johnglas]

I think you're having a 'chicken-and-egg' debate here. Good planning is not predicated on having all the infrastructure in place before development, but it does depend on having at least the skeleton of the infrastructure in place and in making developers conform (by and large) to an agreed planning scheme.The infrastructure can go in incrementally and organically, but where it is supposed to go and on the timetable agreed. The problems of traffic congestion in (e.g.) Carrigaline may have more to do with the lack of something as simple as bus provision rather than some sophisticated roads network (if everyone wants to drive their car to work, they have to live with the consequences).
As far as 'ghost estates' are concerned, has the number of units been quantified? I doubt if it's anything more than a very small proportion of the total housing stock. Looks to me like a solution (in part) to social housing needs just waiting to happen.

[kite]

I ..... Looks to me like a solution (in part) to social housing needs just waiting to happen.

Makes a nonsense of the idea of Part 5 of the P&D Act seeking social integration.
Better left as ghost estates than forming new ghettos.

[Pug]

I think you're having a 'chicken-and-egg' debate here. Good planning is not predicated on having all the infrastructure in place before development, but it does depend on having at least the skeleton of the infrastructure in place and in making developers conform (by and large) to an agreed planning scheme.The infrastructure can go in incrementally and organically, but where it is supposed to go and on the timetable agreed. The problems of traffic congestion in (e.g.) Carrigaline may have more to do with the lack of something as simple as bus provision rather than some sophisticated roads network (if everyone wants to drive their car to work, they have to live with the consequences).
As far as 'ghost estates' are concerned, has the number of units been quantified? I doubt if it's anything more than a very small proportion of the total housing stock. Looks to me like a solution (in part) to social housing needs just waiting to happen.

i think you are right to some extent, it is a chicken and egg debate. I dont think anyone would say all the infrastructure should be in place before an estate or houses go in, but you are dead right, it should go in organically and incrementally. Either way, the country has been failed in terms of that infrastructure as the planning wasnt done to go along with those estates.

As for carrigaline and the traffic, i disagree fundamentally with you on that one, we are back to the chicken and egg situation i believe as a) all the people use their cars because there ISNT an adequate bus service, in 2002 Carrigaline was recognised by the CSO as the most car dependent town in the country. Its 2010. Nothing much has changed. B) The reason people use the cars is they cant rely on the bus as it would simply sit at a standstill in traffic because of an inadequate road network, which has, no bus lane.

The n28 from carrigaline to cork new route has even been decided, its on the NRA website, even looks as if it makes sense but no money is forthcoming to build it.

As for unused houses to be used for Part V, i dont understand why this option hasnt been taken long long ago. The less well off are crying out for accomodation and there is a stack of empty houses around the country. Go figure. The minister for housing is probably on holidays with noel dempsey.

[johnglas]

Pug: love your last sentence; it's the way they tell them!

Kite: If you just reflect on what you've written; I did not say that ALL the houses should be social (and social hsg can be provided as part of a co-operative, not directly by the LA). Is what you're really saying that you don't want THEM in the nice shiny new schemes (sorry, 'estates')? Of course, it's only the working class who live in ghettoes, isn't it?

[kite]

Pug: love your last sentence; it's the way they tell them!

Kite: If you just reflect on what you've written; I did not say that ALL the houses should be social (and social hsg can be provided as part of a co-operative, not directly by the LA). Is what you're really saying that you don't want THEM in the nice shiny new schemes (sorry, 'estates')? Of course, it's only the working class who live in ghettoes, isn't it?

Each and every scumbag drug dealer that was evicted by Cork City Council for dealing from LA housing over the past 10 years had the bleeding heart Judges ordering that they be re-housed elsewhere…I don’t want them in my neighbourhood.
The lazy dopes that never worked a day in their useless lives…I don’t want them in my neighbourhood.

The 20% of Part V housing that (should) go to those that worked, but have fallen on hard times or are senior citizens…I WANT THEM.

Let me know the area you live in and I will try and ensure that you and your neighbours can have your wish for scumbags living next door to you. Then we will see who the real NIMBY’s are!!:rolleyes:

[MrX]

Each and every scumbag drug dealer that was evicted by Cork City Council for dealing from LA housing over the past 10 years had the bleeding heart Judges ordering that they be re-housed elsewhere…I don’t want them in my neighbourhood.
The lazy dopes that never worked a day in their useless lives…I don’t want them in my neighbourhood.

The 20% of Part V housing that (should) go to those that worked, but have fallen on hard times or are senior citizens…I WANT THEM.

Let me know the area you live in and I will try and ensure that you and your neighbours can have your wish for scumbags living next door to you. Then we will see who the real NIMBY’s are!!:rolleyes:

You either have a social housing policy, or you don't. There's a serious difficulty in housing some people, but they still have to be housed somewhere. You can't really expect them to live on the streets.

I fully realise there are unsavory characters, but you come across them in every sort of housing. I was living in a very 'respectable' area of Dublin and we had the misfortune of having a major drug dealer move in next door.

These weren't local authority houses, these were very expensive owner-occupier houses and he bought one.

I've also experienced neighbours from hell in other areas too, everything from the noisy neighbour to the obcessive complusive who complains about absolutely everything. The best one I had was a neighbour who asked if we could install darker blinds or go to bed at a reasonable hour as he was unable to sleep due to the bright glare from our windows!

The 'bright glare' was a standard kitchen light bulb, the blinds were drawn and an unreasonable hour was 11pm.

It's really hard to know what the solution to a problem neighbour is.

If you start to draw down moral guidelines about who can have a house and who can't, where does it stop?

Some people don't like living next to gay people, some people might think that an unmarried couple living together was disgraceful, some people have issues about racism, if you go up north, some people don't like catholics/protestants.

Where do you draw the line ?

Who decides whose worthy of a house?

I'm not trying to be a 'bleeding heart' but, I am just wondering how you would control such a system and how would people have a right do due process?

[rumpelstiltskin]

I agree. In fact I think that there's a very good social purpose to be served by re-housing people like these in affluent areas. No longer will people be able to turn their backs on deprivation and the crime and inhumanity that it breeds, they'll have to face it in their own neighbourhood. And that ought, in a democracy, to help change attitudes to inequality of opportunity.

[johnglas]

Kite: I really think you have some very serious attitude problems (as the Americans would say) to social housing. Stick the socially disfunctional in ghettoes or leave them on the streets and you really will have a problem. I live in a very up-market area, in a so-called prestige development; that is no safeguard from noisy heighbours, drunks in the street, the odd visit from the polis, not to mention all the petty bourgeois hang-ups (including studiously ignoring all the people you live beside). So-called 'mixed tenure' neighbourhoods are the ideal and the current housing 'crisis' (i.e. over-supply) in Ireland may offer a part solution. Simples.
MrX and Rumpelstilstkin: You've said it better than me.

[kite]

Kite: I really think you have some very serious attitude problems (as the Americans would say) to social housing. Stick the socially disfunctional in ghettoes or leave them on the streets and you really will have a problem. I live in a very up-market area, in a so-called prestige development; that is no safeguard from noisy heighbours, drunks in the street, the odd visit from the polis, not to mention all the petty bourgeois hang-ups (including studiously ignoring all the people you live beside). So-called 'mixed tenure' neighbourhoods are the ideal and the current housing 'crisis' (i.e. over-supply) in Ireland may offer a part solution. Simples.
MrX and Rumpelstilstkin: You've said it better than me.

You are more than welcome to the scumbags, the drug dealers, and those whose only ambision in life is to reach the age of 18 so they can sign on the dole and live off the state for the rest of their lives... i don't want those leeches under any circumstances

[johnglas]

I presume you have an oxygen supply inside your plastic bag.

[Pug]

alright folks, lets get back to developments, away from the philosophical debate on whether or not your neighbour is a dealer

Decisions due on 10th Feb from county council for Castlelands Construction, on whether or not they will be granted permission to build 2 golf courses off the carrs hill road to carrigaline (fancily called Ballinrea), this is the deal they did with Douglas Golf Club to move them to this new course, while they would take Douglas Golf Clubs current course/lands and then redevelop it

[daniel_7]

proposals for a six storey multi storey car park with drive true and retail units on the old kinsale road.just wondering does anyone know where this is proposed for and if it is where i think it is im not quite sure what the multi storey car park will be used for?+anyone have pics of the proposed scheme for blackrock village?

[Cliff Barnes]

proposals for a six storey multi storey car park with drive true and retail units on the old kinsale road.just wondering does anyone know where this is proposed for and if it is where i think it is im not quite sure what the multi storey car park will be used for?+anyone have pics of the proposed scheme for blackrock village?

As far as I know this is directly adjacent to the City Councils park & ride facility.

[Chris_533976]

Wont happen. 6 stories will probably be considered too high and any new multi story carpark hasnt a hope of going ahead.

[kite]

Can't get the link to work yet, sorry.

[barneymagee]

proposals for a six storey multi storey car park with drive true and retail units on the old kinsale road.just wondering does anyone know where this is proposed for and if it is where i think it is im not quite sure what the multi storey car park will be used for?+anyone have pics of the proposed scheme for blackrock village?

The planning notice has appeared in the Echo but it hasn't been lodged yet. The site is on the corner of the Kinsale road and the Black Ash road next to the Park and Ride.

[Jim Comic]

anyone have a link to canal developments plans for the 3rd phase of our lady's hospital?

[barneymagee]

anyone have a link to canal developments plans for the 3rd phase of our lady's hospital?

http://planning.corkcity.ie/InternetEnquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=1034258

The application includes a conservation report. Still no news on what the HSE plans to do with the Red Brick St Kevin's building nearby.