Luas Central - Which Route?

Luas Central - Which Route? I would prefer...

Route A
114
37%
Route B
127
41%
Route C
25
8%
Route D
27
9%
Route E
14
5%
 
Total votes : 307

Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:41 pm

Which makes the retention of Metro North on the agenda even more pointless; my guess is that Metro North is being kept on the agenda purely because Dempsey knows that nothing will be signed in advance of the 2012 election and with the electorate hoodwinked it can fall off the agenda completely.

If Dart underground were completed and the existing Luas lines intergrated that would constitute a very good base network from which to expand.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:40 am

d_d_dallas wrote:Citywest is (for most part) being funded privately, even before the current state of finances that was the appetising route for Govt.


You, sir, have put it in a nutshell.

At a time when the Government was wallowing in money, with opportunities to do lots of things in public transport which would never have been achievable in previous decades, this was the most appetising route.

Yes indeed. It sums it all up, in a nutshell.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:36 am

Citywest never did it for me even with promised contributions from local developers; I wonder were these payable before the scheme or contingent on completion in which case they are unlikely to materialise.

The risk with the extension is that people would look at the total journey time to the City Centre and other than local shopping trips to the Square not use it. The fastest route from Saggart was always to drive to Hazelhatch take the train and then Luas from Heuston to the City Centre.

I share both your cynacism on public transport in the boom years; joining the two seperate Luas lines must be a total priority in the current climate as it should have been when there was plenty of cash. It is affordable and deliverable with limited project risk.
The presumption that sopmeone travelling from St James to Dundrum will want to take a Luas a street level to Abbey, walk to O'Connell St, descend to an underground concourse, board a train, alight to street level and take another tram. Contrast that with board tram St James, alight, walk 50m to Marlborough St, take another tram, arrive at destination.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:47 pm

There are, however, difficulties with that.

If the LUAS lines are connected, they will inevitably show that the busiest stops will be those in more central areas of the city (such as Westmoreland Street, College Green and/or O'Connell Street - wherever the stops happen to be) than at the current Green Line terminus at St. Stephen's Green.

In other words, more people on this North-South line will be expressing a preference for travel to the city's more central areas than to St. Stephen's Green. (They are already doing this, through their use of the city's bus routes, but a LUAS link-up would probably highlight this more clearly).

One question which would then arise is why the proposed East-West interconnector is to take a longer, more expensive, circuitous route via St. Stephen's Green, when it is clear that direct travel to the centre of the city is preferred?

Then, a second question arises, namely why the city is proposing to build the metro/interconnector interchange at St. Stephen's Green - without, it should be noted, any public consultation about this move - and subjecting itself to the frankly absurd situation of building two metro stations at one location (O'Connell Bridge), when it will by then be clear that the best route for the interconnector - in terms of passenger numbers, at the very least - will be via more central areas of the city?

These are questions which are not going to be easy to answer.

From the point of view of those who allegedly "plan" and those who make decisions, it would be better if the LUAS link-up were not built.

Having no link-up would make it much easier for these questions not to be asked.

And, therefore, not to be answered.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:43 pm

Seamus

There is no doubt that College Green/Westmoreland St is busier in terms of leisure and educational uses. In contrast Stephens Green/Grafton Street are much busier in terms of office / retail uses.

We can both argue into infinity as to which use provides higher ridership figures as it is far from clear how many users at Tara St are heading to College Green would prefer to change at Pearse for College Green or how many people getting off at Pearse for Stephens Green would prefer to stay on the train or change at Pearse. Personally I think public transport should be geared towards commuters and not tourists but that is purely a personal opinion.


As you say in the absense of the dots being joined as per Ciaran Cuffe's campaign we'll have to wait a decade or more to find out which would be the busiest 2 adjacent stops; unless sense prevails as per Ciaran Cuffe.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:43 am

Sorry, PVC, I don't buy it.

The retail/office uses you're talking about in or around Grafton Street should, overall, be equally well served by a station at a more central location.

Many of the prime office locations are quite remote from the proposed St. Stephen's Green station, mostly about 1 kilometre away in places like Adelaide Road, and thus other public transport developments will need to take place to serve them properly.

The location of the interchange is not, therefore, of particular relevance for the future transport requirements of the most important office areas.

We've been through all this. You just don't seem to get it.

If the LUAS link-up were to be built, regardless of the time of day - including before 10 am, when the tourists are still in their beds - I confidently predict that St. Stephen's Green would not be the busiest stop.

There is a lot of face to be lost, if this prediction is true. On the other hand, there is a lot of face to be gained by reassessing whether the currrently-proposed arrangement of the proposed underground lines is the optimum one.

The largest group of commuters, shoppers, partygoers, whoever, want to go to the centre. To do whatever they have to do there, or to be able to change to go to other places and do what they have to do there.

And, I do have to say, I loved your comment about the need for the focus to be on commuters: do remember that the people who came up with the present interconnector route are the same people who came up with the proposed route for the metrowest.

Tallaght to the Airport was the main focus, but apparently it would also enable people from the commuting suburbs in West Dublin to interchange with the Kildare Line or the Maynooth Line in order to get into the city.

So, those commuters, shoppers, partygoers, etc, in the relevant suburbs, would need to change even to get into the city.

And then the planners (and you) go on about how it's so important that everybody travelling along the Northern Line and the Kildare Line should be delivered directly to St. Stephen's Green, without a change

The same planners came up with these ideas.

I have to say, not terribly impressive.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:58 am

Up to about 1990 all of the financial management industry was located within walking distance of the Stock Exchange on Anglesea St; the numerous law practices that supported them were also within the area between Fleet St and Wicklow Street.

When the markets went to electronic trading based in the IFSC most of the buildings became vacant, then the tax code changed to make apartment and hotel building / conversion the most atttractive option and the area's character changed. Other than the central bank there are no large office employers in that area.

Contrast that to Stephens Green where numerous developments have taken place in the interim and a picture starts to build.

However one does not need to get bogged down in my office district is bigger than yours. What needs to decide this is a designing a system that is predicated on 5-8 minute walking times from the station entrance to serve as many areas as is possible i.e. not building too many stations on top of each other but linking the last kilometer in the busiest section by tram.

Taking the alternative stations for College Green

Christchurch - 5 minutes
Tara Sreet - 5 minutes


Taking the alternative stations for Stephens Green

Christchurch - 8/10 minutes
Pearse Stn - 6/8 minutes
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:12 pm

PVC King wrote:Up to about 1990 all of the financial management industry was located within walking distance of the Stock Exchange on Anglesea St; the numerous law practices that supported them were also within the area between Fleet St and Wicklow Street.

When the markets went to electronic trading based in the IFSC most of the buildings became vacant, then the tax code changed to make apartment and hotel building / conversion the most atttractive option and the area's character changed. Other than the central bank there are no large office employers in that area.

Contrast that to Stephens Green where numerous developments have taken place in the interim and a picture starts to build.

However one does not need to get bogged down in my office district is bigger than yours. What needs to decide this is a designing a system that is predicated on 5-8 minute walking times from the station entrance to serve as many areas as is possible i.e. not building too many stations on top of each other but linking the last kilometer in the busiest section by tram.


PVCK, I need you to clarify a couple of things here.

Firstly, could you tell us about these big changes in St. Stephen's Green. I'm very interested, as I haven't seen that many changes in St. Stephen's Green over the last 30 years or so.

(I think you may be using the term to describe much of Georgian Dublin and places like Adelaide Road and Harcourt Road, even though much of this area would - by the standards of several European cities whose public transport networks we might hope to emulate - be considered quite remote from the proposed St. Stephen's Green station. Please disabuse me.)

Secondly, I think we should look at overall numbers of commuters, regardless of the shape, size or daily tasks of the individual commuter. To me, commuters includes people working in financial management, the law, architecture, graphic design, advertising, newspapers, the retail trade, the hospitality industry - really almost anything which involves travelling to and from work.

You seem to focus on those working in financial management and the law. Do you feel that this group represents the lion's share of overall commuter numbers?

Thirdly, while there may not be many large offices in the area, let's say, 300 metres either side of (say) Dame Street, there are very, very many small offices - not to mention a serious amount of locations which are workplaces for commuters working in the retail trade or the hospitality industry. Have you, perhaps, forgotten about these commuters?
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:38 pm

Seamus

You assert some form of conspiracy or subconscious conspiracy on the part of the DTO to skew the route southwards; I do not wish to get into a handbags at dawn type argument as to clear trends in development patterns. The core office district in Dublin has been for many years located in the areas to the south and east of the intersection of Grafton St and Stephens Green in recent years it has moved west as well. The area north of this cannot be developed due to two key reasons

1. Plot sizes; that area is in the main a mix between Georgian and earlier site boundaries; site assembly is difficult to acheive viable plot sizes i.e. 3,000 sq m plus and rights of light etc make densification difficult within existing boundaries.

2. Heritage; the area is in the main made up of protected structures; for good reason the existing building lines by virtue of heritage protection and in most cases interiors are difficult to alter to open floor plates capable of accomodating office workers efficiently. Take a rectangular floor plate of 40m * 25m puntuated only by columns and you can accomodate roughly 100 staff. Take the upper floors of 4 Georgian buildings comprising a similar net internal area with numerous supporting walls and would be hard pressed to accomodate 60 staff.

Seeing as you asked about changes in the last 30 years taking a few wild guesses

1. Beaux Lane House - c6,000 sq m
2. Golden Lane - Various c10,000 sq m
3. Kevin St/ Bishop St c10,000 sq m
4. Harcourt Street Hospital c6,000 sq m
5. Stephens Green SC c45,000 sq m
6. Bank of Scotland c10,000 sq m
7. Former Dept of Justice c10,000
8. New Dept Finance c4,000 sq m
9. Former Eircom South King St c9,000 sq m
10. KBC Dawson St c3,000 sq m

Compare that to the area either side of College Green/Dame St which comprises the Central Bank, Financial Regulator and a few banks before you descend into workplaces that require c15 sq m plus per employee to accomodate staff comfortably.

The fundamental issue you haven't addressed is the impact on office workers in Adelaide Road, Harcourt St, Leeson Street etc of having to walk from College Green. Whereas the impact on College Green of having to walk from Tara St or Christchurch is about 5 minutes. Would a 5 minute walk from both Dart lines be too much for you?
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:10 am

PVC King wrote:You assert some form of conspiracy or subconscious conspiracy on the part of the DTO to skew the route southwards


Maybe you're right, Maybe...

I've just often wondered whether the location of their office might not have been a factor in their thinking when they got out the crayons.

And they were fairly unceremoniously moved over to DNS, shortly thereafter. Perhaps this was to avoid any suggestion that they hadn't been able to take an entirely objective viewpoint.

Well... if it hadn't been suggested before, it's been suggested now.:D

I do not wish to get into a handbags at dawn type argument as to clear trends in development patterns. The core office district in Dublin has been for many years located in the areas to the south and east of the intersection of Grafton St and Stephens Green in recent years it has moved west as well. The area north of this cannot be developed due to two key reasons


PVC, you seem to be fixated on development.

But the city centre is not Adamstown, or some other development in the west of the city. You don't need to apply suburban rules to this part of the city.

It's already there - it doesn't need to be developed. It's already been done.

Imperfect it may be, but I bellieve there is no better location - in terms of numbers, in terms of not destroying St. Stephen's Green, and in terms of creating a wonderful, pedestrianised, open space in the centre of the city - for a metro/interconnector interchange, than the area around College Green.

PVC King wrote:1. Beaux Lane House - c6,000 sq m
2. Golden Lane - Various c10,000 sq m
3. Kevin St/ Bishop St c10,000 sq m
4. Harcourt Street Hospital c6,000 sq m
5. Stephens Green SC c45,000 sq m
6. Bank of Scotland c10,000 sq m
7. Former Dept of Justice c10,000
8. New Dept Finance c4,000 sq m
9. Former Eircom South King St c9,000 sq m
10. KBC Dawson St c3,000 sq m[


So, Golden Lane is part of St. Stephen's Green in your book?

That's stretching it a bit, is it not?

The fundamental issue you haven't addressed is the impact on office workers in Adelaide Road, Harcourt St, Leeson Street etc of having to walk from College Green. Whereas the impact on College Green of having to walk from Tara St or Christchurch is about 5 minutes. Would a 5 minute walk from both Dart lines be too much for you?


I have addressed this fundamental issue on another thread. This thread is about the central LUAS line.

Assuming that integrated ticketing is in place, workers wishing to travel between Harcourt Street and the interconnector will probably take the LUAS, whether the interconnector is the longer, more expensive, circuitous route through St. Stephen's Green, or the originally proposed shorter route (or some other route)

For workers on Adelaide Road and much of Leeson Street, who will be too far away from the proposed interconnector station for it to be considered a station which, by international norms - "serves" them - they will unfortunately need to wait for other transport development, either way.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby alonso » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:34 am

Seamus O'G wrote:Maybe you're right, Maybe...

I've just often wondered whether the location of their office might not have been a factor in their thinking when they got out the crayons.

And they were fairly unceremoniously moved over to DNS, shortly thereafter. Perhaps this was to avoid any suggestion that they hadn't been able to take an entirely objective viewpoint.

Well... if it hadn't been suggested before, it's been suggested now.:D


Well apart from Luas dating from the 1994 DTI report which predated the existence of the DTO did it not? As for the move to Abbey st, that happened in 2008, about 6 or 7 years after the dig began for Line B.

Perhaps you're thinking of the Red Line ;)
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:20 am

Alonso, I've been looking for any proposal for a high capacity east-west/west-east rail line through St. Stephen's Green which predates Mammy's decision to cut the LUAS green line short.

But, as the song says, I still haven't found what I'm looking for.

The circuitous option appears to date from around about that time.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:48 pm

What you need to remember about the 1975 DRTS plan was that it comprised two lines and not one; the first East West Line did go through Dame Street (Temple Bar Square) which I will come back to but also the second Line had a station at Fitzwilliam Square which would have extended a five minute walk to three sides of Stephens Green and as far as Harcourt Street etc.

The context of the Dame Street station was that most of Temple Bar was to be flattened and a modern central station built in its place behind the Central Bank; thankfully the Group of 91 with Haughey's help ended the Bus station permanently and the area regenerated into the Heritage rich, low density Temple of Bars that we see today.

If the Five minute walk principal were applied the main office and retail districts are pretty much covered from the Dart Network once it goes to Stephens Green; however what is not covered in one change is the Green Luas Line to integrate with the North Inner City or Red Luas Line.

Join the dots.......
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby weehamster » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:30 pm

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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:54 am

Hamster

Can you cut n paste the text; subsciber area only!!
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby weehamster » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:05 am

Oops, very sorry about that. Didn't cop on to that:o
Its a thread dedicated to Dublin rail plans that didn't materialise. Its all pictures of the many different plans but these also require a subscription.
Sorry.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Morlan » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:38 am

After reading the Civic Trust's recent (and splendid) report and re-reading through this particular thread, I would now have to agree with the views of some posters here regarding the detrimental effect of Luas wirescapes in College Green and O'Connell St.

Line BXD and Line F (Dame St.) will most definitely go ahead. Be it in 10 years or 20, someday. It's a no brainer. Trams WILL run through College Green and O Connell someday.

In this Archiseek poll, 41% of you voted for Option B. And 37% voted for Option A

However, neither of these options were chosen by the RPA. A new option was chosen:

Image

We still await An Bord Pleanála's decision on Metro North, but if it goes ahead, the RPA will lay the foundations for line BXD in College Green and O'Connell St..

The question remains, how can the Luas operate without wires?

Answer:

With massive expense and unreliable technology.

1. Third rail (APS)
2. Battery powered trams

Posters and media keep saying "Bordeux".

Yes, Bordeux has a very small section through the city powered by a third rail. It has failed on numerous occasions due to rain, snow, ice, dirt, etc. From reading translated French documents, the APS system was so unreliable that the local government ordered that wires be erected.

The technology is still under development and it will be another decade before RPA even consider using it.

Battery operated trams/ APS trams:

How much to you think it would cost to retrofit Luas trams with batteries or third rail conductors? The cost would be astronmical.

Lads, it´s not going to happen in this decade. The RPA will not invest in a flawed technology.

The best we can hope for is Metro North and Interconnector, and in 2020, Luas BXD with (hopefully) improved APS.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby missarchi » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:02 am

The RPA cannot cry poor while proposing another bridge
Building another bridge is flawed technology...
The money could be better spent...
Luas central is premature pending dart u and metro north ...
Further to this there is no under master plan for this whole procession.

route a is the best but only if they chop into the trinity railings...

metro north should be able to be high speed or third rail... and should have a spare third line it would cost peanuts

natural gas powered luas?

Underground college green
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Frank Taylor » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:11 pm

Morlan wrote:Battery operated trams/ APS trams:

How much to you think it would cost to retrofit Luas trams with batteries or third rail conductors? The cost would be astronomical.
The new trams lines BXD & F are unlikely before 2020. Vehicle battery costs have fallen by 50% in the last 4 years. The batteries in the new Nissan Leaf are costing around $9,000 for 24 kwh. If you assume that a tram has 20 time the power req of a car, then that's $180k for tram batteries. As I remember, the luas trams cost €1m a piece so it's not completely out of all possibility.

The batteries would just be used to get across the central area from Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street. Many cities will have this kind of requirement for their trams in future so it would be an off-the-shelf product option at that stage rather than a custom development as the French undertook in Bordeaux.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Smithfield Resi » Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:49 pm

Or use mag-induction...look to Ausburg for proof of concept. Seems robust enough...

GERMANY: The Primove induction-based catenary-free electrification system developed by Bombardier Transportation is to be piloted on the tram network in Augsburg, the manufacturer announced on May 26.

Formally unveiled at Bombardier's Bautzen factory in January 2009, Primove uses cable buried beneath the track to produce a magnetic fields which induces electric current for traction power in pick-up coils mounted underneath the vehicle.
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