Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby arch77 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:40 pm

thats fair enough henno, there's a$$holes and chancers everywhere... but id wager that this instance only occurs 10% of the time [10% to much] with architects, but perhaps 60-70% with non architects...

80% of planning applications for residential work are submitted by non architects or people pretending to be architects.. [a figure confirmed by the RIAI, not made up by me]. look at the state of the place... its only 20% our fault.

there's also the possibility he's not an architect, was his name verified by the RIAI... ?? i don't know. that's the purpose of registration.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:07 pm

arch77 wrote:thats fair enough henno, there's a$$holes and chancers everywhere... but id wager that this instance only occurs 10% of the time [10% to much] with architects, but perhaps 60-70% with non architects...
.


i would seriously question the logic behind this.

RIAI listing provides this practitioner with a fall back. The next client to enter that persons office will be told in no uncertain terms that "I am RIAI registered" and be filled with all the usual sales sphel that goe swith that statement.

Non-architects (as you call them) generally have only their reputation as a method of measuring their service. They know that if a client is unhappy with their service they cannot fall back and say "but i am RIAI registered".... To suggest that this kind of unprofessional work occurs in 60-70% of 'non-architects' (who could be technicians, enginners, QS etc) is grossly miscalculated. I myself would wager it would be equatable to the 10% you suggest occurs for architects. As a profession, architectural technicians should be considered to actually have the most professional capacity to prepare correct planning applications.

arch77 wrote:80% of planning applications for residential work are submitted by non architects or people pretending to be architects.. [a figure confirmed by the RIAI, not made up by me]. look at the state of the place... its only 20% our fault.
.


I have no issue with that statement, other than it being an indictment against the body in charge of "the state of the place". Bad design should not be allowed, whether architect or non-architect designed.

arch77 wrote:there's also the possibility he's not an architect, was his name verified by the RIAI... ?? i don't know. that's the purpose of registration.


thats a possibility... but judging on the fees charged.....
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby arch77 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:58 pm

henno wrote:i would seriously question the logic behind this.

RIAI listing provides this practitioner with a fall back. The next client to enter that persons office will be told in no uncertain terms that "I am RIAI registered" and be filled with all the usual sales sphel that goe swith that statement.

Non-architects (as you call them) generally have only their reputation as a method of measuring their service. They know that if a client is unhappy with their service they cannot fall back and say "but i am RIAI registered".... To suggest that this kind of unprofessional work occurs in 60-70% of 'non-architects' (who could be technicians, enginners, QS etc) is grossly miscalculated. I myself would wager it would be equatable to the 10% you suggest occurs for architects. As a profession, architectural technicians should be considered to actually have the most professional capacity to prepare correct planning applications.



I have no issue with that statement, other than it being an indictment against the body in charge of "the state of the place". Bad design should not be allowed, whether architect or non-architect designed.



thats a possibility... but judging on the fees charged.....


Again, you're just presuming, its conjecture.

i agree re bad design. the planning approval system is also flawed. saying your RIAI registered is not a cushion to fall back on, any client who has had a bad experience with an architect and receives this as an excuse should laugh in there face.

your also talking about being qualified re: preparing planning applications, i think the point is buildings should be designed by architects. not, they should draw the red line around a site plan.

why can't we all just get along and do our Jobs.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:02 pm

arch77 wrote:Again, you're just presuming, its conjecture.


yes, and so are you..

arch77 wrote:your also talking about being qualified re: preparing planning applications, i think the point is buildings should be designed by architects. not, they should draw the red line around a site plan..


thats not what was going on in the post i linked to.. which you commented on and lead to this exchange :)

arch77 wrote:why can't we all just get along and do our Jobs.


i absolutely agree....
but did you read the title to this thread??? ;)
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby parka » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:08 pm

henno wrote: As a profession, architectural technicians should be considered to actually have the most professional capacity to prepare correct planning applications.


I disagree, the CAD monkeys are the best choice.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby foremanjoe » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:15 pm

parka wrote:I disagree, the CAD monkeys are the best choice.


Agreed parka, and they'll work for peanuts too.

It's also legal and justified to beat them if they make any errors.

CAD Monkey
(Carrot+Stick) =Legitimate Planning Application.

Problem Solved.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby arch77 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:35 pm

henno wrote:yes, and so are you..



thats not what was going on in the post i linked to.. which you commented on and lead to this exchange :)



i absolutely agree....
but did you read the title to this thread??? ;)


an architects job is to design, leave it to them.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Bren88 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:35 pm

arch77 wrote:thats fair enough henno, there's a$$holes and chancers everywhere... but id wager that this instance only occurs 10% of the time [10% to much] with architects, but perhaps 60-70% with non architects...

first of all, I have a bit of a problem with the way you group everybody into Architects, and non-architects. It smacks of us against the world, and reality isn't black and white.

I agree that there are many people posing as architects submitting plans, and this is wrong.
There are many people offering a planning service (without posing as architects) who do not have the formal training to do so, this is wrong.

There are many people who have formal training, and are qualified to prepare plans, who you are grouping with the above non-architects, this is wrong


That is the main problem I have with your argument, you are being totally condescending towards trained professionals by considering them on par with laymen and cowboys. Maybe you didn't mean to or realise you did it, if if you did then its plain old superiority complex, get over yourself.


there's also the possibility he's not an architect, was his name verified by the RIAI... ?? i don't know. that's the purpose of registration.


the OP said he was an RIAI architect. I have no reason to doubt that. He obviously check it out.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:12 pm

the experience but not the qualification? what does that mean...;) nothing... even though you have been validated...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/architect-jobseeker-fears-her-generation-will-be-left-behind-1978730.html
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:51 am

Should a full service be a condition of planning applications?
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Bren88 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:25 am

missarchi wrote:Should a full service be a condition of planning applications?

No, of course not. Many planning apps are for minor work, often without the need of a full service, why force this extra cost on to people
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:24 pm

Who are architects really working for?

This thought coincides with a report on last week’s RIBA Council meeting, which included the news that 50% of architects now work for contractors. It is not reported whether this announcement was greeted with a rousing cheer or the passing round of garlic and crucifixes, but it is another mark of an irreversible shift in the balance of power between the professions and contractors.

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=427&storycode=3155366&channel=783&c=2&encCode=0000000001a9bf22

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=427&storycode=3155323&channel=783&c=2&encCode=0000000001a9bf3a
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby RKQ » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:49 am

Bren88 wrote:There are many people who have formal training, and are qualified to prepare plans, who you are grouping with the above non-architects, this is wrong


Well said Bren88, I agree. Things are rarely Black & White.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby gardenbeet » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:02 pm

Some Urban Planners courses do not give urban design training - it seems weird that they are responsible for assessing urban design in government? Would architects really want to assess planning applications? Dreary plus plus but very very important. Yeah for planners who have a design focus - just need more of them
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Solo » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:27 pm

PlanE wrote:Only doctors, vets and dentists can write prescriptions, only judges can give sentences, priests give absolution, teachers mark exams, licensed bus drivers drive buses, the list goes on. Why shouldn't it be the same for architects?

Lets face it, good planning requires good design.


Sorry obviously coming in late to this thread. Good design and or bad design is not always down to the architect. Clients often have very good ideas too.

In designing for development It has been my experience that many planners get too involved in the building design and instruct a lessening of design or reduction of original content and regularly suggest keeping in with the traditional or vernacular existing developments. I have had many a battle for my clients to move away from much of the Bungalow Bliss if I may use such an expression and not offend anyone responsible for them, I am sure looking at the amount of these littering our countryside the sales of these books and pre-prepared plans must have made someone very wealthy.

The fact remains however that our planners or certainly many of them have become smitten by these wonders of modern design and often insist of them being copied. So bad design is in my opinion not soley the responsibility of the humble architect who gets caught between trying to improve the built environment and obtaining the permission he/she is being paid to seek.

We have bills to pay as well as everyone else and if we do not moderate our design standards to the whim of the planners a refusal issues and there goes the project and no recommendation for further work.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby onq » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:16 pm

Look at the work stages of the RIAI or RIBA and you'll see the level of fees specifically allocated to statutory approvals - this is retarded thinking, because in my experience unless you are a skilled negotiator you will not get what you and your client want or what the building needs to be to function and make a profit.

The outrageously low plot rations imposed around rural towns are responsible for the bungalow bliss blight on the landscape, and planners without much in the way of building design skills were guided by what was there and what their poorly educated councillor bosses thought looked right, or at least thought didn't look better than the one they were living in - and there's the rub.

Fear of censure by others on the pecking order ladder and a desire for pre-eminence has resulted in coinservative decisions and unsustainable low density, not the extension of the urban form required for the growth of a town.

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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Solo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:15 pm

PlanE wrote:Only doctors, vets and dentists can write prescriptions, only judges can give sentences, priests give absolution, teachers mark exams, licensed bus drivers drive buses, the list goes on. Why shouldn't it be the same for architects? We have it bad enough, God knows.

Lets face it, good planning requires good design.

The countryside (in particular), and towns have undeniably been ruined over the last 40 years, mainly through unqualified cowboys and developers allowed to run rampant, providing for individual interests, all in the name of 'competition'.

The last Building Control Bill (and the Eurocratic system responsible for it), has not gone far enough. Protection of title should have been extended to include protection of services, and thereby protection of the 'common good', the fundamental aim of good planning.


When I look at your post I cannot help but to think that you are in fact John Graby as you post is something very dear to his heart.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby onq » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:58 pm

Plan E is only saying what CK and I ahve both agreed, although he has put a different spin on it.

Protection of title does nothing, in and of itself.

Making is a legal requirement that people who design building for financial reward should be competent to do the kind of design they do is only common sense, and yet to be implemented.

The issue for CK is how this competence is assessed.
The issue for me is how existing qualifications are recognised.
Neither is incompatibal with the idea of registration, given an equitable mindset.
The trouble is that the RIAI doesn't seem to be operating from an equitable mindset.

This is going to bite them in the ass if they ever take anyone to Court.
High-handed administration of authority may not sit well with a judge, in the face of precedent supporting rights established over ten years.

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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:19 pm

onq wrote:.........
Making is a legal requirement that people who design building for financial reward should be competent to do the kind of design they do is only common sense, and yet to be implemented.

The issue for CK is how this competence is assessed.
................


the assessment standard of the 'competence' is completely obvious......

bad design (incompetence) should result in planning refusal.

good design (competence) should result in grants.

This should be the yard stick by which competence should be measured, not some 'registered list' in which the public would be forced to choose a practitioner and forced to pay prescribed rates from a 'cartel' market system.

History has shown in many cases that the public are not protected by registration.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby onq » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:20 pm

Unfortunately, Henno, there are few Locals Authority [LA] architects involved in assessing planning permissions.

It is an utterly retrograde situation when you think about it, given the results to date.

Planners, Engineers and Conservation Officers advise on permsisions.

Are they competent to do so - what do the results suggest?

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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:39 am

onq wrote:Unfortunately, Henno, there are few Locals Authority [LA] architects involved in assessing planning permissions.

It is an utterly retrograde situation when you think about it, given the results to date.

Planners, Engineers and Conservation Officers advise on permsisions.

Are they competent to do so - what do the results suggest?

ONQ.


i completely agree with you ONQ...

But isnt that a prime example of "dont hate the player, hate the game"..??

If the system is set up to work the way it is supposed to, then the question of the suitability of the agent wouldnt come into question at all.

People equating architectural designing to doctors, vets etc is completely nonsensical. Design is completely subjective. Anatomical diagnosing is an absolute matter of life and death. Ive heard of some architects having an inflated sense of themselves, but that comparison takes the biscuit.

Is there a restriction on fashion design?? furniture design?? is there a restriction on who can create a work of art??... .answer.. NO!!

success and failure in the world of design is based on competence, not on whether the artist name is on a list!!
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby onq » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:21 am

My concern is that people's taste in fashion and art is like their taster in buildings - different strokes for different folks.

You can forget that horrible dress you saw yesterday and you'll never want to see your friends provate collection of dastardly artwork again, but a building affects members of the public 24/7/365/100 - forever, effectively - or until its pulled down or "facelifted".

Personally I don't like a lot of Rem Koolhaus's work.

He went from "dumb boxes" to "ugly shapes" a long time ago.

I know the guy gets plaudits worldwide and some of his stuff isn't offensive to me.

But every day on this forum I'm reminded he won that Canadian competition and has stuck a scaleless cantilvered glass and steel concoction beside a beautifully proportioned church building.

(shakes head)

I could accept Foster's reflective and anonymous glass box [itself now a listed building] because it wrapped cutting edge modernity in a reflective glass shell - a very clever solution, but these beetling oversails and cantilevers that look like they're about to fall on people - what's that about?

An engineering tour-de-force, or a premonition of the next world war with buildings falling on our heads?

I find it terribly oppressive architecture-for-effect, without the mediation of scale and resolution of forces that say, a collonade gives, or even the light touch that a skeletal canopy or brise-soleil brings to soften a dumb box facade/form.

Now we have dumb boxes in garish colours removed from the human concourse sailing over our heads - what's the intended subtext there?

So you see, I differ from the OMA school of design.

Maybe I'm just a crappy boring designer.

Too "safe" to be as balls-out as OMA.

Others will differ from me.

Who decides?

Are the planners best fitted to make these decisions, as representatives of "everyman"?

Who is doing the complaining apart from architects on the make, ministers looking for re-election and pseudo-intellectuals with too much time on their hands.

Is there an objective reason for complaint, apart from the fact that one would like the 3,500 sqft Bungaloid on two acres and the mercs in front of it for oneself?

Are our complaints mere bregrugery dressing in the clothes of academic appreciation and artistic criticism?

If we criticize others, we must first be brutally honest about our need to criticize.

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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:18 pm

henno wrote:i completely agree with you ONQ...

Is there a restriction on fashion design?? furniture design?? is there a restriction on who can create a work of art??... .answer.. NO!!



Well now you see that’s an equally flawed comparison. Artists of any description can be as avant-garde or as safe as they want but they cannot influence the taste and choice of the consumer. As a consumer I can choose to buy a shirt, a chair, a painting. The chair and painting inflict my choices (and, by association, the choices of the designers) upon me, visitors to my house and nosey passer-bys. My shirt might delight or offend another for a fleeting second. It might do so even less if I am wearing a coat or a jumper. I am unlikely to wear a noticeable shirt often and even less likely to pass the same people whilst wearing it.

Built form is a completely different matter. It’s there. In your face. 24/7. It affects a huge number of people in many ways. If you like it you can choose to stop and admire. If it offends all you can do is choose not to look at it or take a route to avoid it. Whilst it is subjective there are basics in terms of form, function, proportion, relevance, technique etc etc that will form the basis of a pleasing building just as there are recipes for disaster. Public art and sculpture is different but, that said, very few councils approve a large sculpture because it was designed by someone’s elderly relative and given to them for Christmas
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:49 am

wearnicehats wrote:Artists of any description can be as avant-garde or as safe as they want but they cannot influence the taste and choice of the consumer.


:confused:

of course they can, they do every day.... what do you think fashion magazines... IKEA etc are all based around?? of course they influence the tastes and choice of consumers.

many architects can also be 'avant guarde' or 'safe', its a basic premise that defines difference practices...

architectural fashion can be as fleeting as any other type of art, which leaves us with dated buildings in our face 24/7, regardless of whether the designer is on a 'list' or not... the recent love affair with "the fold" will quickly become dated and gauche, in my opinion, and we will be left with these "signature" specimen buildings for years after they loose their immediacy.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:14 pm

henno wrote::confused:

of course they can, they do every day.... what do you think fashion magazines... IKEA etc are all based around?? of course they influence the tastes and choice of consumers.

.


Those things do not move me in any shape or form - they can inform my decision as to what is out there but they cannot make me buy what I don't want. IKEA kitchens look good but if you want a kitchen that lasts longer than a wet weekend you'll pay for Rationel. I have to ooh and ahh at every daubing that my kid does but I don't frame it and put it on my wall. George Clooney might look good in a pair of crocs but I personally look like a dick in them.

If I don't like a building I can object to it but, ultimately, the form of the buildings I have to look at every day is not mine. I rely on the informed decisions and the ability of others. I don't personally care for the ODOS box but it's a damn site better on the eye than some stick on pastiche that came out of a houseplan book.
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