Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:48 am

no MIES...
no corb...

I've found a domain you can buy...

http://www.badirisharchitecture.ie

it's all yours...
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby RKQ » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:52 am

PlanE wrote: Unfortunately much development gets done by people who either couldn't care less or want it done their own way.


I think thats called Democracy!
Germany has a poor record on democracy, so I don't agree with "Whats good for Germany is good for us".

A talented Achitect with excellent design & business skills, excellent reputation and strong ethics has nothing to fear in a recession. Such Architects do not need or seek the protection of function.

Only the weak & the meek seek protection, they want a monopoly to protect their lack of talent or skill. Why try when you can get the Government to hand it to you on a plate.

Being a member of the Golf club does not mean you are a skilled Golfer.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:03 pm

missarchi wrote:no MIES...
no corb...



CORB ... HAD formal training
Mies did an apprenticeship plus a lot of study

anyway you are referring to a time when architecture had only just been formalised in terms of training, and these were artist-geniuses from visually-literate societies - the comparison is sadly lacking ...

RKQ wrote:I think thats called Democracy!
Germany has a poor record on democracy, so I don't agree with "Whats good for Germany is good for us".


Actually, no, it's called Capitulation. Democracy is political, nothing to do with building. I'm having to repeat myself here but this again is 'anything goes' building. And unfortunately the lowest-common-denominator in society will always look out for the Quack / Chancer.

RKQ wrote:A talented Achitect with excellent design & business skills, excellent reputation and strong ethics has nothing to fear in a recession. Such Architects do not need or seek the protection of function.


So you presume to speak for architects now as well?

RKQ wrote:Only the weak & the meek seek protection, they want a monopoly to protect their lack of talent or skill. Why try when you can get the Government to hand it to you on a plate.


I am sick and tired of this 'survival of the fittest' BS. I hear similar from acquaintances in the well-heeled Civil Service telling us how we are all going to have to make do.

RKQ wrote:
Being a member of the Golf club does not mean you are a skilled Golfer.


And being a skilled golfer requires training. So forget this fixation on membership, etc. 'Membership' is only the result of doing 7 years-plus of long hard slog. Something conveniently forgotten by all the wannabes and begrudgers.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby RKQ » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:13 pm

One should check one's history.... when was the RIBA formed? It was the first formal Architects body in the world. Well before certain world famous Architects were born.

I wonder what Taodo Ando would make of PlanE's comments?

In a Democracy, any member of the public is entitled to represent themselves in Court.
Naturally one should seek the advice & representation of a good Solicitor or Barrister but this is not a requirement by Law.

In a Democracy any member of the public is entitled to make their own Tax return. Naturally a Self employed individual should retain a good Accountant or Book-keeper, to make a Tax retun on their behalf. But again this is not a requirement of Law.

At least we can agree "And being a skilled golfer requires training". Training, qualifications & experience are required. BUT not all members of a Golf Club are "skilled". Membership is no guarentee of skill.

In a Democracy I am happy to listen to your point of view, each individual is entitled to an opinion. Likewise, I am entitled to my opinion. I can give my opinion in an adult manner without name calling or swearing, in a mature debate.:)

Remember that Walter Gropius & Mies had to leave Germany.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby arch77 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:41 pm

PlanE take no notice of these idiots on here... as you can tell there's very few professionals amongst them. You should be ashamed of yourself for coming on here and thinking of getting a reasonable response. By the way, you can add Spain and France to the list of countries who agree with you too.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby BTH » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:47 pm

I've seen planning applications done by "non architects" that are infinitely better designed, more considered, well presented and realistically buildable than some I've seen from so-called professionals. Judgements of architectural quality should be based on the work, not on what letters are after someones name. Unfortunately our profession is riddled with arrogance and delusions of superiority. It's no wonder "Joe Public" prefers to deal with the draftsmen and engineers in many cases...
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:42 pm

RKQ wrote:Remember that Walter Gropius & Mies had to leave Germany.


Saarinen came back for more maybe we should join him! :D

Architects adaptable to clients change...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQF6b_WnWRU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AYE3w5TWHs

the righter in you

http://www.architecturefoundation.ie/2009/12/06/call-for-papers-ordnance-war-architecture-and-space/
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby parka » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:31 am

BTH wrote: It's no wonder "Joe Public" prefers to deal with the draftsmen and engineers in many cases...



In reality most members of the public can't tell the difference between one or the other.

I feel the biggest problem is the number of disciplines in the construction industry all fighting for some recognition. 15 years ago you could simply identify each discipline. Today...............maybe it is the survival of the biggest blagger.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby arch77 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:28 am

BTH, are you an application spotter? by saying 'our profession' i presume your an architect. weird past time reviewing planning applications by others..

anyway, back to the original question, and idea of what PlanE is suggesting...

What does everyone here against PlanE's idea, think of the Spanish system were only architects can submit plans to build anything to the local college of architects, where other architects check these applications against a very strict and detailed development plan. These development plans are drawn up to huge detail by urban designers and architects. Planners, in the irish sense of the word, play virtually no role in the system.

Aside from who's doing what, the advantage of this system is that each site has height, colour, window percentage etc restrictions, so the owner knows exactly what he or she can do from the outset... there's to much grey area in Ireland and Britain, good design gets diluted by external objections / factors etc. the spanish system has its problems too, obviously, but i think it make much more sense than the irish or english system.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby modular man » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:10 pm

I do not believe that architects should be the only people allowed to make planning applications. In some cases they are not the most qualified people to make the application (I am thinking mainly of infrastructural projects which probably require a part 8 application but it amounts to more or less the same thing). However, I think I am correct in saying that the system in France means that any building above 200m2 needs to be signed off by a registered architect before it can be lodged for planning. In effect, small houses etc can be lodged by anyone but bigger buildings require a qualified designer (however some architects in France will put their name to someones else's design for a fee thus circumnavigating the system).

Again, this is not a perfect solution but I do think that there is some merit to it. It seems that 200m2 is an arbitrary enough figure and would probably result in a shed load of badly designed 199m2 houses. I am not too interested in self preservation, I just think that the public has a right to well designed towns and street scrapes and maybe there should be tighter control on certain types of buildings.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby PlanE » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:57 am

RKQ wrote:One should check one's history.... when was the RIBA formed? It was the first formal Architects body in the world. Well before certain world famous Architects were born.

I was referring to when the architecture schools, properly speaking, were formalised in the manner we know them today. Of course there were academies and institutes prior to this, but the training relative to today's training was a lot less formal.
RKQ wrote:In a Democracy, any member of the public is entitled to represent themselves in Court.
Naturally one should seek the advice & representation of a good Solicitor or Barrister but this is not a requirement by Law.

In a Democracy any member of the public is entitled to make their own Tax return. Naturally a Self employed individual should retain a good Accountant or Book-keeper, to make a Tax retun on their behalf. But again this is not a requirement of Law.

Good examples. However, in these cases, you as an individual will be held directly Accountable. In the current free-for-all planning system however, no accountability other than the silly unenforced, unchecked 'compliance' certification exists, and only the public suffers from the results - permanently.
RKQ wrote:Remember that Walter Gropius & Mies had to leave Germany.


I don't think it's a good idea to be referring back to the time of the Third Reich, as you have done twice. Germany is now an extremely efficient and well-run democracy, something that can be questioned regarding the reality of this country. However, this is going off track. I refer back to the efficiency only.
arch77 wrote:BTH, are you an application spotter? by saying 'our profession' i presume your an architect. weird past time reviewing planning applications by others..

anyway, back to the original question, and idea of what PlanE is suggesting...

What does everyone here against PlanE's idea, think of the Spanish system were only architects can submit plans to build anything to the local college of architects, where other architects check these applications against a very strict and detailed development plan. These development plans are drawn up to huge detail by urban designers and architects. Planners, in the irish sense of the word, play virtually no role in the system.

Aside from who's doing what, the advantage of this system is that each site has height, colour, window percentage etc restrictions, so the owner knows exactly what he or she can do from the outset... there's to much grey area in Ireland and Britain, good design gets diluted by external objections / factors etc. the spanish system has its problems too, obviously, but i think it make much more sense than the irish or english system.

Very good comments Arch77, and I'm very interested to know more of how these countries operate. Though the Spanish system sounds like it has a high degree of control, I think this is preferable to the uncontrolled sprawl and poc-marked development that has occurred here.
modular man wrote:I do not believe that architects should be the only people allowed to make planning applications. In some cases they are not the most qualified people to make the application (I am thinking mainly of infrastructural projects which probably require a part 8 application but it amounts to more or less the same thing). However, I think I am correct in saying that the system in France means that any building above 200m2 needs to be signed off by a registered architect before it can be lodged for planning. In effect, small houses etc can be lodged by anyone but bigger buildings require a qualified designer (however some architects in France will put their name to someones else's design for a fee thus circumnavigating the system).

Again, this is not a perfect solution but I do think that there is some merit to it. It seems that 200m2 is an arbitrary enough figure and would probably result in a shed load of badly designed 199m2 houses. I am not too interested in self preservation, I just think that the public has a right to well designed towns and street scrapes and maybe there should be tighter control on certain types of buildings.

Local Authorities make Part 8 applications, which include roads, so it's already outside the province of the private practice. However, I think many Part 8 applications require full architectural involvement. Similarly, taking your argument further, of course there are specialisms outside the architect's province, such as Environmental Impact, however, for the sake of control and jurisprudence the architect should be the chief applicant.
At this point, let me say - some have tried to accuse me of selfish commercial interests - this is not the case. My argument from the beginning has been about better planning and development, something the non-architects here (and even some architects) simply do not get.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:25 pm

PlanE wrote: My argument from the beginning has been about better planning and development, something the non-architects here (and even some architects) simply do not get.


In order to get better "planning and development" perhaps the argument should be focused on those bodies who CONTROL "planning and development" and not those who propose it.

Restriction only leads to protectionism. Consumers loose out due to restricted choice of point of service and cartel fee structuring. It also leads to stagnation and laziness in the marketplace.

As i said above, bad design should equate to refusal (whether planning refusal or request for re-design). There needs to be the ability and confidence in the planning system to accurately and fairly criticise design.

South Africa also has similar development control systems which give strict parameters in which the design can exist. factors such as wall to fenestration ratio, plot ratio, colour schemes, space separation etc are all intelligently "fleshed out" and written up as specific design guides for specific projects and areas.

Like anything in this country, the planning system requires complete overhaul. Architects should be central to the argument as to what is good and bad conceptual design. But I certainly do not believe that they should be, or even consider themselves to be, the sole purveyors of "design".
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Postby teak » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:42 pm

I think that this thread is bullshit.
As an experienced architect himself, the proposer must have thought about and discussed this many years before -- not least in his student days.
But now -- all of a sudden -- it's a new issue again.
I wonder why so is that now . . . .

How about the proposition:

That all planning officers that review the build and landscaping aspects of a development proposal have a primary qualification in architecture.
And then have had already taken additional postgraduate studies in planning prior to applying for suitable vacancies in planning offices.


That's a really useful way of both improving the built environment and deploying slack skilled labour within the architectural profession.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby RKQ » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:56 pm

henno wrote:Restriction only leads to protectionism. Consumers loose out due to restricted choice of point of service and cartel fee structuring. It also leads to stagnation and laziness in the marketplace.


Well said Henno. I'd have to agree with you.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby teak » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:04 pm

A talented Architect with excellent design & business skills, excellent reputation and strong ethics has nothing to fear in a recession. Such Architects do not need or seek the protection of function.

This is nonsense.
High minded professionals are always among the first to lose out in a slack work situation.

Seeking protection of function as a goal in itself may well be a sociopolitical vice.
But obtaining a reasonable protection of livelihood as a result of maintenance of good professional standards is simply fair accrual to people who do their job right.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby parka » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:06 pm

teak wrote:A talented Architect with excellent design & business skills, excellent reputation and strong ethics has nothing to fear in a recession. Such Architects do not need or seek the protection of function.

This is nonsense.
High minded professionals are always among the first to lose out in a slack work situation.

Seeking protection of function as a goal in itself may well be a sociopolitical vice.
But obtaining a reasonable protection of livelihood as a result of maintenance of good professional standards is simply fair accrual to people who do their job right.


I would agree with you
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby AMDM » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:13 pm

teak wrote:I think that this thread is bullshit.
As an experienced architect himself, the proposer must have thought about and discussed this many years before -- not least in his student days.
But now -- all of a sudden -- it's a new issue again.
I wonder why so is that now . . . .

How about the proposition:

That all planning officers that review the build and landscaping aspects of a development proposal have a primary qualification in architecture.
And then have had already taken additional postgraduate studies in planning prior to applying for suitable vacancies in planning offices.


That's a really useful way of both improving the built environment and deploying slack skilled labour within the architectural profession.


Good man Teak, so you are saying that all architects are qualified to review the landscaping aspects of a development proposal too...... Back to my original point that the majority of architects think they can do everything..... and architects wonder why they get stick for being elitest.....

Oh and why should planners get a primary qualification in Architecture? There are already 4 year Planning degree courses out there e.g DIT Spatial Planning Course that has core design and building modules amongst other disciplines interwoven through the years........
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:54 pm

Supply and demand now is the time to be a teacher and make more students;)
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby teak » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:36 pm

Oh and why should planners get a primary qualification in Architecture? There are already 4 year Planning degree courses out there e.g DIT Spatial Planning Course that has core design and building modules amongst other disciplines interwoven through the years........

That may well be how it is with the present recruits to planner jobs.

But the people I've met in the last 6 years have just a B. Eng. (Civ) to their name.
And these fellows are still the bullying "Senior Planners" over any properly qualified new ones . . .

Naturally, my recommendations on minimum qualifications for planner jobs (B.Sc. from planning courses fine if it's all you suggest it is vis-à-vis building design, landscaping design) would have to be applied retrospectively.:)
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Wild Bill » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:22 am

teak wrote:That all planning officers that review the build and landscaping aspects of a development proposal have a primary qualification in architecture.
And then have had already taken additional postgraduate studies in planning prior to applying for suitable vacancies in planning offices.
.


Nail, head, hit, well said.
If this were the case a lot of the existing dross would be cleared from the list of Agents on any present Local Authority list.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby missarchi » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:12 am

I also seem to remember a foster getting people to sign off his works...
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby RKQ » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:06 pm

PlanE wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to be referring back to the time of the Third Reich, as you have done twice. Germany is now an extremely efficient and well-run democracy, something that can be questioned regarding the reality of this country. However, this is going off track. I refer back to the efficiency only.[/I]

Maybe the title of this thread and your wish to force the public to use Architects only, reminds me of the single party politics of Germany in 1939?

I do feel it is a pity that well educated, experienced professionals are depending on "Protectionism" and the dream of an "Monopoly" to survive. Shame on those with elitest feelings that are oboviously not believed by the public.:)

A talented Architect with excellent design & business skills, excellent reputation and strong ethics has nothing to fear in a recession. These Professionals always survive & prosper. Only the meek complain and beg for protection.

Maybe the title of this thread should be Why are Architects not retained by the General Public to apply for Planning Permission?
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Wild Bill » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:14 pm

RKQ wrote:Maybe the title of this thread and your wish to force the public to use Architects only, reminds me of the single party politics of Germany in 1939?

The analagy is a tad extreme perhaps, but I think we realised what you meant when you posted it first.

RKQ wrote:I do feel it is a pity that well educated, experienced professionals are depending on "Protectionism" and the dream of an "Monopoly" to survive. Shame on those with elitest feelings that are oboviously not believed by the public.:)

I'm sure the idea of the protection of a body such as the RIAI is a very comforting prospect before fees are taken into account. If I were paying those fees I would expect to have my chosen career and workload protected too. What is wrong is the monopoly aspect, when it comes to the RIAI, monopoly is no longer a game!

RKQ wrote:A talented Architect with excellent design & business skills, excellent reputation and strong ethics has nothing to fear in a recession. These Professionals always survive & prosper. Only the meek complain and beg for protection.

Spoken like a young sprite full of vim and vinegar ready to take on the world comfortable in the knowledge you are the best at what you do and the world loves you. Two or three decades in the job, with the memories of a few recessions in your diaries and the keblar turns back to cotton.

I find your posting interesting, but I'm afraid I find it too salty for my palate. I have no wish to wage war on my fellow workmen (figuratively speaking ladies) but I would like to make the policy makers aware of my extreme distaste at the ease with which their signatory hand can be readily directed and manipulated by a select few, for the benefit of a select few. This I am doing in my own way.
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby henno » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:53 am

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63534652&postcount=4


one reason alone why RIAI registered architects SHOULD NOT be the only ones allowed to submit planning applications!!!
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Re: Should Architects be the only ones allowed to make Planning Applications?

Postby Bren88 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:57 pm

henno wrote:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63534652&postcount=4


one reason alone why RIAI registered architects SHOULD NOT be the only ones allowed to submit planning applications!!!


Trying to save a week has cost a likely 8 weeks. Well done mr architect.

Are people really that stuck for work that they feel the need to squabble over planning and design.

A good track record, and satisfied clients should be all that is required to keep the head above water
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