The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Buildin

Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby goneill » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:56 pm

I must admit to not having read the registration legislation, so excuse my ignorance on the following. As far as I am aware registered architects from other European countries are entitled to practice in Ireland without doing anything. But to call themselves architect here must they first register with the RIAI? If so, must the RIAI automatically recognise their equivalent registration elsewhere or will it subject them to the same obstacle course as it does to (for example) American licensed architects?

The reason I ask is that it might be possible for CK to register in France or somewhere, and then swap that registration for an Irish one, as many people do with their driving licenses.

I have always felt that this whole scheme was completely unecessary, will result in huge administative costs which will be passed on (plus profits) to the consumer, will eventually lead to non-architect control of the profession and its standards, will do nothing to curtail the lucrative practice of the mythical woodwork teachers who were really doing the profession and public not much harm anyway, and will culminate inthe RIAI being an irrelevant private members club, much as the RIBA is. But I accept this viewpoint is almost unique among memebrs of the RIAI.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby wearnicehats » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:33 pm

CK wrote:
I have a master in arts and architecture not listed in the EU directive, issued by a French University 15 years ago. My first experience in a practice was in 1993. I have worked in the UK between 1995 and 2000 and I created my practice in Dublin by the end of 2000, I have a 5 years degree and 16 years of experience but I cannot register through the Technical Assessment Board.

I was willing to pass the exam until I learned about the €13,300 fees. I have applied for registration as per route D2, or Section 16 of the BCA 2007, but no application form are available and the RIAI is looking at every aspect of my situation to block me rather than help me. I feel like an unwanted competition. I have given the last 25 years of my life practicing and studying architecture, and I think that I deserve more respect than that.

Honestly, I do not mind about the title "Architect". What I want is to be able continuing practicing architecture as I was before. But the RIAI has already tried to stop me being listed as an architect last year and it is only by employing my solicitor that the Golden pages legal team ruled that the RIAI request for trying to block me and others was illegal because the registration procedure was not yet in place. But what will happen tomorrow if my application for registration is turned down?

I am looking at the professional ethic here. The issues of certification for compliance with planning and building regulations do not make any sense. Architect opinions of compliance are requested for buildings, but these certificates are frequently issued with only a final inspection and they only ascertain compliance of the design and not compliance of the dwelling. Do you think that someone purchasing a house care about the design or do you think that this person is concerned about the built structure?

What is the point of a cert of compliance if it only covers the design and not the built structure? There are many other issues like this one which reflect a corrupted system where public interests are ignored for the interests of some professionals. I have certified my work since 2003 and my certs were the result of detailled inspections during construction.

I think that the same apply to the registration for reasons that I have already stated. To protect the public, all individuals providing architectural services should be regulated and registered with an Institute which is caring for architecture instead of caring for some architects. I have practiced in Ireland since 2000 but I could not use any of the RIAI contracts or other documents. Don't you think that the RIAI could have improved architecture in the country and protect the public by trying to regulate architects non members. Don't you think that they could have created a code of conduct and other helpful documents for non members to protect the public?

I do not know if my application for registration will be accepted of refused... But whatever the result, I think that more honesty is required about the goals to be achieved...


you see I find this whole thing completely bizarre. The country in which you ply your trade has passed legislation, legislation that doesn't suit you - but where do you get off thinking that you can ignore it? In the next two weeks I will most likley end up paying more tax than I did last year - perhaps I can refuse to pay on the basis that I didn't pay this much last year or the year before that??

you query my assertion that you think the the world owes you something then state that you "have given the last 25 years of my life practicing and studying architecture, and I think that I deserve more respect than that" - even though you don't meet the criteria no matter how unfair you may think it to be

you state that you left college with an unrecognised degree 15 years ago and seem outraged that, in order to become registered, it will cost you money. I graduated 18 years with a recognised degree. 16 years ago I became a registered architect - at my own cost - and, for the past 16 years I have paid a not insubstantial yearly sum to remain so in 2 different countries. I am not a member of the RIBA because I don't need to be - the ARB is suffcient. I am a member of the RIAI because I do need to be as that is the legislative system in this country. Your concern is money and yet you are probably paying more in solicitors fees than it would cost you to enter into a simple partnership with a suitably qualified peer

You can search about all you want for a sympathetic shoulder and demean those who don't agree with you but ultimately you are only deluding yourself
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:12 am

wearnicehats wrote:you see I find this whole thing completely bizarre. The country in which you ply your trade has passed legislation, legislation that doesn't suit you - but where do you get off thinking that you can ignore it? In the next two weeks I will most likley end up paying more tax than I did last year - perhaps I can refuse to pay on the basis that I didn't pay this much last year or the year before that??

you query my assertion that you think the the world owes you something then state that you "have given the last 25 years of my life practicing and studying architecture, and I think that I deserve more respect than that" - even though you don't meet the criteria no matter how unfair you may think it to be

you state that you left college with an unrecognised degree 15 years ago and seem outraged that, in order to become registered, it will cost you money. I graduated 18 years with a recognised degree. 16 years ago I became a registered architect - at my own cost - and, for the past 16 years I have paid a not insubstantial yearly sum to remain so in 2 different countries. I am not a member of the RIBA because I don't need to be - the ARB is suffcient. I am a member of the RIAI because I do need to be as that is the legislative system in this country. Your concern is money and yet you are probably paying more in solicitors fees than it would cost you to enter into a simple partnership with a suitably qualified peer

You can search about all you want for a sympathetic shoulder and demean those who don't agree with you but ultimately you are only deluding yourself


Well wearnicehats,

You are missing the point again... I have always followed the legislation and I will continue this way...

Please focus on the subject of this thread which is about the registration of architects.

You may think that I do not deserve respect, but personally I think that everyone does... This is probably the difference between you and me...

As an architect you should focus on the system that rules your profession. I am resident and practicing in this country, I pay taxes to the Irish government and that allow me to be critical about it, whatever you like it or not.

With regard to my solicitor’s fees, he is a good friend of mine and I must admit that it just cost me a diner... With regard to your attitude, it just confirms where the problem lies... It is not my skills which are the problem for my registration but people like you eager to protect their own interests whatever the cost, the public interests come only second.

Maybe you should focus on helping for the creation of a better architectural system in this country instead of letting others doing it for you... If architects had been more involved this way, like I always been, we would not have roof coming off apartments blocks in Dublin and newly built estates flooded in Kildare during the last week...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby RKQ » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:00 pm

I think people are missing the point.
Registration is not the problem in itself.
However if you actually read the Bill and compare Part 3 to Part 4 or Part 5 you will see that Part 3 is more comprehensive, restrictive & difficult that Part 4 or Part 5.

Hence its seems to be more difficult to register as an Architect than it is to register as a Quantity Surveyor or Building Surveyor. Can anyone explain or justify this?

Why does a proposed "Assessment" procedure, held "in-house" at Merrior Square cost €6,500-00?

I've no problem with registration as long as it is open process with a fair fee. The 50% fair rate on the pilot scheme is a concern.

Remember that Architecture is a long course. Many great designers with 1st class Honours degrees in Architecture (RIBA Part 1) work in the industry. These individuals may have stayed on working, for numerous reasons, rather that finish Part 2 or Part 3. These Architectural Assistants are highly trained and talented qualified people. They may have internationally recognised qualifications.

ARAE does not give exemptions - ie it does not recognise RIBA Part 1 or Part 2?
This is very strange and quite short sighted.
ARAE feels it can "train" anyone with 7 years work experience & 12K into an Architect, in just 12 months!
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:12 pm

CK wrote:Well wearnicehats,

You are missing the point again... I have always followed the legislation and I will continue this way...

Please focus on the subject of this thread which is about the registration of architects.

You may think that I do not deserve respect, but personally I think that everyone does... This is probably the difference between you and me...

As an architect you should focus on the system that rules your profession. I am resident and practicing in this country, I pay taxes to the Irish government and that allow me to be critical about it, whatever you like it or not.

With regard to my solicitor’s fees, he is a good friend of mine and I must admit that it just cost me a diner... With regard to your attitude, it just confirms where the problem lies... It is not my skills which are the problem for my registration but people like you eager to protect their own interests whatever the cost, the public interests come only second.

Maybe you should focus on helping for the creation of a better architectural system in this country instead of letting others doing it for you... If architects had been more involved this way, like I always been, we would not have roof coming off apartments blocks in Dublin and newly built estates flooded in Kildare during the last week...


dude if you are the CK of http://www.ckarchitect.ie the biggest step forward in creating better architecture is for the riai to shut you down immediately
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby missarchi » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:18 am

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:28 am

wearnicehats wrote:dude if you are the CK of http://www.ckarchitect.ie the biggest step forward in creating better architecture is for the riai to shut you down immediately


Where can I find some or your works wearnicehats? At least I am not hiding behind a pseudo... I am not afraid of my opinion... Considering the way you express yourself and the level of your argument, I think that you are not what you pretend to be... Are you courageous enough to show your real identity?
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby missarchi » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:07 pm

the moment of truth wearnicehats... will the hat come off? number 4 meet number 2 or 4 meet 5?

but you can't see what i'm typing? anything I type normally gets deleted...

It's getting very manly in here missarchi runs for the door...:p
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby Wild Bill » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:06 pm

Lads, why don't ye just measure them, put them back in your trousers and lets get on with the discussion.

wearnicehats wrote:...is for the riai to shut you down...

Is this what all the massive fees are for, for the RIAI to become judge and executioner as well as being the genial face for representation of those who can afford it.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby teak » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Putting architects and architectural technologists/technicians into the same professional category seems to me to be the wrong way to go about the control of build standard.

It's clear to even an outsider like me that, while some of the architectural technologists/technicians may pass the design part of their exams/assessments, many will not.
Because they simply do not have the aptitude for this type of work.
Their talents lie elsewhere : be it detailing, assuring specifications, regulation adherence, etc, etc.

It's equally clear to me that many good architects - despite their wonderful gift for conceiving solutions for complex problems of space and light - have a limited eye for the details of construction.
Details analysis of an initial design is not so stimulating for the architect; besides it's harder to see the flaws in one's own work.
And doing thorough on-site inspection is a wasteful use of an architect's time.
Hence the many defects visible in final building quality in nicely designed (on paper) apartment blocks & offices.

It is clear that some sort of accommodation is needed between the 2 disciplines here.
Sure a small practice architect doing a small job (e.g. a house or a work unit) cannot share fees with an arch tech practice.
But with bigger jobs - and greater consequences with flaws - an architect may find it cost-effective to subcontract some detailing/supervisory to an arch technologist.

All this points to a need for the architectural technologists to create their own professional body - a need that must be felt both from their own point of view as well as from that of the general public.
But this will never be so if they are both herded into the same "RIAI Architect" pen.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:38 pm

CK wrote:Where can I find some or your works wearnicehats? At least I am not hiding behind a pseudo... I am not afraid of my opinion... Considering the way you express yourself and the level of your argument, I think that you are not what you pretend to be... Are you courageous enough to show your real identity?


for those old enough to remember saturday afternoon wrestling in the early 1970s
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Niggah Architechs

Postby teak » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:45 pm

Seems like no one cares what happens to the architectural technicians/technologists who do not have the design skills to make it aboard the RIAI wagon.

No wonder they're putting up such a fight behind the scenes.
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Re: Niggah Architechs

Postby CK » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:53 pm

teak wrote:Seems like no one cares what happens to the architectural technicians/technologists who do not have the design skills to make it aboard the RIAI wagon.

No wonder they're putting up such a fight behind the scenes.


Teak,

The problem is that nobody cares... The RIAI is asking €6500 for registration through the Technical assessment board, €13,500 for the register examination and only a 2 or €300 for their members...

The BCA 2007 clearly states that all applicants should be charged the same fees for registration. In the UK or France or even in the US, the fees for registration are always below €2,000 or dollards.

They are obviously trying to dissuade through financial means.

I am not sure if I am at the right place to talk of such an important subject. People like wearnicehats seem to be more into jokes rather that serious conversation...

It is one of the problems that I experience... I do not have any institute to back me up... I am not part of any group to denunciate the irregularities that are carried out...

It is not normal that someone like me and others in my situation may found themselves in the impossibility to practice, because unable to call themselves architects and unable to certify their work, despite having a sound knowledge of architectural services...

If it was only about protecting the public, then we would not be requested to pay €13,500 for an exam when everybody knows that professionals and trades from the construction industry are struggling to make a living...

I am now trying to apply through another route... But other arguments are presented... I feel that after 9 years working in the country, and despite clients delighted with my services, I may have to close my business and apply for unemployment benefits because some people pretend that I am not qualified to continue working... Some people who are obviously willing to take over the clients from my practice...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:07 pm

Is there anyone on this board aware of a group of architects in Ireland being created to defend their rights for continuing practicing and certifying their works despite not being registered? I am aware of CIAT, but they are not based in Ireland and if their system is well adapted to the UK, I don't think that it is very useful for the R.O.I.

The problem is that if nobody defends the rights of all architects or persons delivering architectural services non member of the RIAI... These persons, these architects are said to be permitted to practice, but the reality is that they will soon be wiped off... Many of you are probably young, and it will be easy for you to adapt to a new profession... But for me, at 41 years old it would be difficult... I have given the last 22 years of my life to architecture, and I don't know what else I could do...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby parka » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:25 pm

CK wrote: But for me, at 41 years old it would be difficult... I have given the last 22 years of my life to architecture, and I don't know what else I could do...


In this current climate, there are a lot of qualified Architects asking themselves the same question
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby foremanjoe » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:12 pm

CK wrote:Many of you are probably young, and it will be easy for you to adapt to a new profession... But for me, at 41 years old it would be difficult... I have given the last 22 years of my life to architecture, and I don't know what else I could do...


The young architects will have no choice in this matter.
7 schools will produce architecture graduates next year; UL, Cork, Waterford, DIT, UCD, UU and Queen's.
What possible chance have these graduates got?
Where can they attain their part 3 qualification?
How can they afford to pay the registration fee?
If each school produces an average of 30 graduates that means there will be over 200 young architects trying to enter the profession next year. Even if half those people leave the country I cannot envision more than 20% of the remainder gaining employment in the field.

The recent budget was devised to drive young unemployed and unemployable people out of the country by reducing their job seekers allowance. A massive proportion of the people affected by this move are newly-qualified or apprentice tradesmen and they have now been left with little other option than to leave Ireland altogether.
This architects register will have the same effect on newly graduated architects; it will serve to snuff out their last bit of hope that they can make it in spite of the current climate.

The register is designed to protect the status of the RIAI and its members; the idea of the protection of the consumer is simply a thinly-veiled attempt to disguise this fact.
The current crop of successful architects will be ring-fenced and an 'Establishment' will be formed and reinforced. These architects will propogate themselves and architecture in Ireland will stagnate. There is some evidence to suggest that this has already happened, and I don't mean simply the demise of the building boom.

John Wayne would say it's time to circle the wagons boys, but I have no doubt that Sean O'Laoire has an Irish translation for this expression.
He's good at that kind of thing.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby henno » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:22 pm

CK wrote:Is there anyone on this board aware of a group of architects in Ireland being created to defend their rights for continuing practicing and certifying their works despite not being registered? I am aware of CIAT, but they are not based in Ireland and if their system is well adapted to the UK, I don't think that it is very useful for the R.O.I.
...


CIAT is a representative group for Architectural Technologists, not Architects.



CK wrote:The problem is that if nobody defends the rights of all architects or persons delivering architectural services non member of the RIAI... These persons, these architects are said to be permitted to practice, but the reality is that they will soon be wiped off.
...


This is already happening.

Currently in order to be able to be considered for engagement under the school capital works scheme:

Is a consultant architect / engineer / chartered building surveyor required?

Yes. The school authority must employ a suitably qualified consultant architect , engineer or chartered building surveyor [member of Royal Instiutute of Architects (RIAI), Institute of engineers of Ireland (IEI), Society of Chartered Surveyors or equivalent]


so only RIAI architects can tender for DOE work....
protectionism already exists....
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Re: Niggah Architechs

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:41 pm

CK wrote:Teak,

The problem is that nobody cares... The RIAI is asking €6500 for registration through the Technical assessment board, €13,500 for the register examination and only a 2 or €300 for their members...

The BCA 2007 clearly states that all applicants should be charged the same fees for registration. In the UK or France or even in the US, the fees for registration are always below €2,000 or dollards.

They are obviously trying to dissuade through financial means.

I am not sure if I am at the right place to talk of such an important subject. People like wearnicehats seem to be more into jokes rather that serious conversation...

It is one of the problems that I experience... I do not have any institute to back me up... I am not part of any group to denunciate the irregularities that are carried out...

It is not normal that someone like me and others in my situation may found themselves in the impossibility to practice, because unable to call themselves architects and unable to certify their work, despite having a sound knowledge of architectural services...

If it was only about protecting the public, then we would not be requested to pay €13,500 for an exam when everybody knows that professionals and trades from the construction industry are struggling to make a living...

I am now trying to apply through another route... But other arguments are presented... I feel that after 9 years working in the country, and despite clients delighted with my services, I may have to close my business and apply for unemployment benefits because some people pretend that I am not qualified to continue working... Some people who are obviously willing to take over the clients from my practice...


why don't you place an ad along the following lines:

unemployed RIAI qualified architect required to enter into silent partnership. Commission based remuneration to be agreed.

If I was making jokes I'd have added "poor eyesight essential" but I didn't. Seriously, there's a mutual benefit to be had here. you scratch my back I'll sign your certs
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby gunter » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:44 pm

I really don't want to get involved in this, having nearly dropped off the register myself through not having the €600-odd annual subscription, and I feel for CK's predicament, but I do also feel that there is a distinction to be made between someone who has gone through the torment of architecture school and come out the other end still standing and someone who has found a less arduous route.

Every year that I was in Bolton Street, there were people in the course who tried very hard, but didn't get through. Some were forced to repeat the year, some dropped out completely, it wasn't easy. I recall sitting through wretched repeat exam myself and I recall making desperate pacts with Christ to be good and true on more than one occassion.

CK wrote:The problem is that if nobody defends the rights of all architects or persons delivering architectural services non member of the RIAI... These persons, these architects are said to be permitted to practice, but the reality is that they will soon be wiped off . . . .


They've been talking about registration for twenty years, this didn't exactly come out of the blue. You seem to be a very competent building technologist, but is that the same as architecture?

There is this whole deeper dimension to architecture, or there's suppoed to be. One of the things we're meant to learn is that there is this public realm aspect to architecture that superceeds just the satisfying of the requirements of the client, so that when he comes to you and says he wants a dormer bungalow, you have to find a way of showing him how you can satisfy all of his requirements and design him a comfortable family home . . . with architectural integrity, you're not supposed to just give him a dormer bungalow.

Nobody wants to get into a slagging match about who can and can't design, but in the past I have worked with two guys who were not qualified architects, but who practiced as architects. Both were exceptional business men, good organizers, good with clients, but to be honest about it, neither one of them cared too deeply about design, and I'm pretty certain neither one of them ever lost a night's sleep agonizing over the architecture of a project that just wasn't coming together.

Most qualified architects on the other hand, even the ones with the arrogant outer shell, do care deeply about design and pay for this concern with constant insecurities and uncertainties . . . deep down. Probably, if it wasn't for the constant rounds of awards and citations many of the most dedicated architects would have crumpled by now under the weight of creative doubts, or so you'd hope.

foremanjoe wrote:The register is designed to protect the status of the RIAI and its members; the idea of the protection of the consumer is simply a thinly-veiled attempt to disguise this fact.
The current crop of successful architects will be ring-fenced and an 'Establishment' will be formed and reinforced.


I suspect that there's an awful lot of work to do to make sure that that impression doesn't take hold. Whether the RIAI has any intention of undertaking that work is another question.

foremanjoe wrote:John Wayne would say it's time to circle the wagons boys, but I have no doubt that Sean O'Laoire has an Irish translation for this expression.
He's good at that kind of thing.


I think Sean O'Laoire's term is up, it's Paul Keogh now, as far as I know.

More Jimmy Stewart than John Wayne, I think.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby henno » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:55 am

gunter wrote:There is this whole deeper dimension to architecture, or there's suppoed to be. One of the things we're meant to learn is that there is this public realm aspect to architecture that superceeds just the satisfying of the requirements of the client, so that when he comes to you and says he wants a dormer bungalow, you have to find a way of showing him how you can satisfy all of his requirements and design him a comfortable family home . . . with architectural integrity, you're not supposed to just give him a dormer bungalow.
.


This is pretty much the crux of the matter.

There is a wide market out there for clients who do not want "architecturally designed" dwellings, believe it or not. I have seen clients leave RIAI architects exasperated that the architect "was not giving them what they want" or unable to satisfy planning requirements, so they turn to 'others' to "draw up the plans" which sail through planning due to their monotony and blandness.

The question is whether these 'others' actually are performing the duties commensurate to those of an architect.

So we are left with two questions, one which is being energetically debated on the "should architects be the only ones allowed submit planning application" thread.... the other question being "is it acceptable to build dwellings not designed by formally educated persons". Without dragging this thread off track i wont offer an opinion on this.

A major problem, as i see it, is the lack of recognition of the profession of Architectural Technology in the building project hierarchy. There are many of the 'others' that may be better described as 'architectural technicians' than 'architects'. CIAT describe MCIAT members as being fit to:

Chartered Architectural Technologists are recognised as being qualified to negotiate and manage the development of a construction project

* Assessing the needs of clients and users and agreeing the project brief
* Recognising the significance of the design stage and how it underpins the construction project
* Evaluating and advising upon environmental and regulatory legal requirements affecting the project and obtaining initial approvals
* Producing and evaluating feasibility studies
* Evaluating resources and assessing environmental impact
* Assessing and managing survey requirements and producing surveys
* Developing project briefs and design programmes
* Advising clients on methods of project procurement and forms of contract
* Managing health and safety
* Preparing and presenting design proposals using CAD techniques and traditional methods
* Leading the detailed design process and co-ordinating detailed design information
* Managing and co-ordinating the design team and associated professional consultants
* Developing the project design, researching problems and producing, developing and advising upon innovative solutions
* Producing, analysing and advising upon specification, materials selection and detailed design solutions in relation to performance and production criteria
* Liaising with and producing documentation for statutory approval authorities
* Producing, managing, controlling and integrating design and production information
* Carrying out design stage risk assessments
* Managing or co-ordinating associated professionals
* Obtaining and evaluating tenders and agreeing contracts
* Ensuring continual compliance with design, legal, statutory and professional requirements
* Programming schedules and undertaking stage inspections
* Administering contracts and project certification
* Managing project handover
* Gaining feedback from and de-briefing client and user
* Appraisal of building performance in use and producing, developing and maintaining maintenance management information systems
* Evaluating and advising upon refurbishment, repair, reuse, recycling and deconstruction of buildings
* Providing professional guidance and decision making to clients, users and design/construction teams
* Weighing up issues and making balanced judgements
* If providing services directly to a client, obtaining and maintaining adequate mandatory Professional Indemnity Insurance (PII)
* Undertaking structured Continuing Professional Development (CPD)


As can be seen above many of the professional competencies of MCIAT Architectural Technologists are commensurate to those of architects, APART from the conceptual design aspect or architects and perhaps the detailed design solution aspect of technologists.
Therefore we have this wide ranging overlay of similar skills, yet the BCA appears to be a gateway towards the restriction of the engagement of these services to Architects only. As i mentioned in the other thread, the dept of education capital school works restricts engagement to RIAI members, IEI engineers or SCS surveyors. No mention of MCIAT there!! No recognition of a governmental department as to the skill sets of a chartered technologist. Im putting the majority of blame for this onto technician professionals as they consistently havent been able to organise themselves into a noteworthy lobby group. Perhaps in part due to the lack of a legally defined title such as the BCA affords Architects. Bit of a catch 22 really.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:41 am

henno wrote:CIAT is a representative group for Architectural Technologists, not Architects.


Hi Henno,

Both of them are producing architecture... Can you explain the difference between an architect designed building and an architectural tech designed building?
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:49 am

foremanjoe wrote:.

The register is designed to protect the status of the RIAI and its members; the idea of the protection of the consumer is simply a thinly-veiled attempt to disguise this fact.
The current crop of successful architects will be ring-fenced and an 'Establishment' will be formed and reinforced. These architects will propogate themselves and architecture in Ireland will stagnate. There is some evidence to suggest that this has already happened, and I don't mean simply the demise of the building boom.
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Something must be done to denonciate this problem... The competition authority has already highlighted the conflict of interests with relation to the RAI being appointed has the registration body...

It is completely inadequate that some practitioners unable to register with the RIAI will find themselves without code of practice and without any institute to represent them.

The RIAI is protecting architects, but what about the public looking for value and quality?
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:14 pm

gunter wrote:

They've been talking about registration for twenty years, this didn't exactly come out of the blue. You seem to be a very competent building technologist, but is that the same as architecture?

There is this whole deeper dimension to architecture, or there's suppoed to be. One of the things we're meant to learn is that there is this public realm aspect to architecture that superceeds just the satisfying of the requirements of the client, so that when he comes to you and says he wants a dormer bungalow, you have to find a way of showing him how you can satisfy all of his requirements and design him a comfortable family home . . . with architectural integrity, you're not supposed to just give him a dormer bungalow.

Nobody wants to get into a slagging match about who can and can't design, but in the past I have worked with two guys who were not qualified architects, but who practiced as architects. Both were exceptional business men, good organizers, good with clients, but to be honest about it, neither one of them cared too deeply about design, and I'm pretty certain neither one of them ever lost a night's sleep agonizing over the architecture of a project that just wasn't coming together.



Hi Gunter,

I know that they were talking about registration for the last 20 years. The fact is that 23 years ago, I was entering university believing that once qualified, I would be able to practice architecture, unaware of all the troubles to come...

You are mistaking about me. I have a Master in Arts and Architecture, and my qualification is missing courses related to building technologies, services and structural engineering to comply with section 46 of the EU directive for the recognition of professional qualifications. However, within my university I was taught technology and engineering through the design process, but not through a special course with a heading. The fact is that it works in practice and that I learned how to design a structure using relevant data. I learned about technologies by designing projects which of course were never built. Masonry works, carpentry, curtain walls, insulation, foundations, etc... I studied engineering and technologies as part of design courses... How can someone fully design a building without technological knowledge?

My studies were centered on the practice of architecture as an Art rather than a Technology. For this reason I feel very surprised when the RIAI propose me to register as a technologist. This does not make any sense.

I have designed dormer bungalows for my clients. In some circumstances, planning restrictions do not permit 2 storeys dwellings and a dormer is the best answer. A dormer bungalow can be a nice dwelling. A dwelling does not have to look preety to be interesting. Arts and architecture can be simple and match their environment. You seem to think that a building needs to be standing out to be considered as an architectural creation. I completely disagree with you on this point.

An architectural creation is an agreeable building. It does not have to be different and to visualy stand out...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby henno » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:21 pm

CK wrote:Hi Henno,

Both of them are producing architecture... Can you explain the difference between an architect designed building and an architectural tech designed building?


I dont understand why you would consider 'Architectural Technicians' as being able to 'design' to standard comparable with formally educated 'Architects'. There may be some who can, but the majority are focused on the science and building physics of construction.

I dont consider technicians comparable to architects in conceptual design in the same way that i dont consider architects comparable to technicians in the detailed design solutions of construction problems.

I am a technician, ACIAT status, and cant join RIAI as a tech member because i dont work in (for!) an RIAI reg office (architect). I am much more interested in having my own professional capabilities recognised legally in order to be able to practise without dealing with the ignorance which exists in the industry ie solicitors and financial institutions.

My fear is that the BCA will enforce these ignorances and lead to 'architect only' led construction projects, similar to what currently exists in the dept of education.
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