The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Buildin

Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby RKQ » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:20 pm

"RIAI CPD courses have just become mandatory for members, some of which can be very pricey"
Thats a nice way to ensure funds during a recession!

An independent Registration body is essential - just like the UK. The current proposal is a joke and will reflect badly on the Profession.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:27 pm

The registration of architects was officially started in May 2008 last year... And I am still waiting for the procedure to be in place to regularize my situation.

The fact is that the RIAI has tried to prevent my practice being listed in the Golden Pages last year, and I am wondering what will happen this year. The RIAI continues to promote and defend its members but as the registration body, the RIAI has done nothing for practicing architects non members of the Institute.

As a practicing architect I know that delays can happen during the design, the construction process, and it is understandable that delays can also happen during procedures such as the registration of professionals. However, I think that the RIAI has no excuse for not changing its structure and politic towards non members. 16 months after May 2008, nothing positive has been done for architectural practices non member of the RIAI.

Why? I would have thought that the Registration Body has also a duty of care toward non members of the institute...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby henno » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:26 pm

CK wrote:The registration of architects was officially started in May 2008 last year... And I am still waiting for the procedure to be in place to regularize my situation.

The fact is that the RIAI has tried to prevent my practice being listed in the Golden Pages last year, and I am wondering what will happen this year. The RIAI continues to promote and defend its members but as the registration body, the RIAI has done nothing for practicing architects non members of the Institute.

As a practicing architect I know that delays can happen during the design, the construction process, and it is understandable that delays can also happen during procedures such as the registration of professionals. However, I think that the RIAI has no excuse for not changing its structure and politic towards non members. 16 months after May 2008, nothing positive has been done for architectural practices non member of the RIAI.

Why? I would have thought that the Registration Body has also a duty of care toward non members of the institute...


it is not in the RIAIs members interest to accept registration of new architects due to an ever shrinking market.

The RIAIs primary raison d'etre is to serve its members to the best of its ability....

two plus two equals four...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:06 pm

there are many ways to become a member of the RIAI - many more ways, incidentally, than in many other countries

Either take one of those routes and follow the procedures in place or don't. It's really quite simple and all the crying in the world isn't going to help
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:42 pm

henno wrote:it is not in the RIAIs members interest to accept registration of new architects due to an ever shrinking market.

The RIAIs primary raison d'etre is to serve its members to the best of its ability....

two plus two equals four...


I am afraid that 2+2 equal 3 in this particular situation. If I believe the Building Control Act 2007, the RIAI is supposed to deal with registration without discrimination. But it seems that they are not able or willing to do so...

As the Registration Body, the RIAI should be developing a department to deal with non members. A department to inform, advise, and prepare the ground for post-registration matters. I want to register but I am not willing to become MRIAI.

The RIAI is not fulfilling its function as the Registration Body.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:58 pm

wearnicehats wrote:there are many ways to become a member of the RIAI - many more ways, incidentally, than in many other countries

Either take one of those routes and follow the procedures in place or don't. It's really quite simple and all the crying in the world isn't going to help


wearnicehats, I think that you do not realy know what you are talking about...

In the UK for example, experience and knowledge lead to registration. The RIAI has a very academic approach to registration. I have 5 years qualification not listed in the EU directive, and on this ground they have refused my candidature as a MRIAI.

They would like me to apply for registration through a route where I would need to work for a MRIAI architect to register as a full member. I have my own practice since 2001, I have children and I am not willing to go back to work for another architect. For this reason I want to register as per the Building Control Act 2007 (BCA 2007) without applying for RIAI membership. It is my legal right to do so...

The RIAI is the Registration Body and it should help with registration as per the BCA 2007, but instead it is only considering MRIAI applications and this is in breach with the BCA 2007.

I am not crying, I am just defending my rights...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby wearnicehats » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:18 am

CK wrote:wearnicehats, I think that you do not realy know what you are talking about...

In the UK for example, experience and knowledge lead to registration. The RIAI has a very academic approach to registration. I have 5 years qualification not listed in the EU directive, and on this ground they have refused my candidature as a MRIAI.

They would like me to apply for registration through a route where I would need to work for a MRIAI architect to register as a full member. I have my own practice since 2001, I have children and I am not willing to go back to work for another architect. For this reason I want to register as per the Building Control Act 2007 (BCA 2007) without applying for RIAI membership. It is my legal right to do so...

The RIAI is the Registration Body and it should help with registration as per the BCA 2007, but instead it is only considering MRIAI applications and this is in breach with the BCA 2007.

I am not crying, I am just defending my rights...


can you really register with the ARB in the UK without doing an exam?

is working for a MRIAI architect part of the D2 Route?
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:48 am

wearnicehats wrote:can you really register with the ARB in the UK without doing an exam?

is working for a MRIAI architect part of the D2 Route?


An examination is necessary to register with the ARB in the UK. However, anyone with the knowledge, skills and experience of an architect would be successful.

To become MRIAI, an examination is requested, including work experience within a MRIAI practice.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby wearnicehats » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:47 am

CK wrote:An examination is necessary to register with the ARB in the UK. However, anyone with the knowledge, skills and experience of an architect would be successful.

To become MRIAI, an examination is requested, including work experience within a MRIAI practice.


how do you currently sign payment and/or compliance certs
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:57 am

wearnicehats wrote:how do you currently sign payment and/or compliance certs


Sorry wearnicehats, my solicitor advised me on this matter, but is is a sensible issue that I do not want to discuss in public or with someone that I do not realy know. There are many guys making illegal certifications out there, and I do not want to help anyone this way...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby wearnicehats » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:57 pm

CK wrote:Sorry wearnicehats, my solicitor advised me on this matter, but is is a sensible issue that I do not want to discuss in public or with someone that I do not realy know. There are many guys making illegal certifications out there, and I do not want to help anyone this way...


and you wonder why the RIAI wants to keep a tight rein on registration:rolleyes:
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:44 pm

wearnicehats wrote:and you wonder why the RIAI wants to keep a tight rein on registration:rolleyes:


No... I wonder why nothing has yet been done? 17 months after having declared the registration procedure started. They should either have delaid the official start of the registration procedure, or be ready...

The situation today is: "Registration was started in May 2008, but it is not ready yet"... Do you understand the problem?
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby RKQ » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:41 pm

CK wrote:No... I wonder why nothing has yet been done? 17 months after having declared the registration procedure started. They should either have delaid the official start of the registration procedure, or be ready...

The situation today is: "Registration was started in May 2008, but it is not ready yet"... Do you understand the problem?


Very well said CK. I have to agree fully with the points you have raised.

Details of Technical Assessment will be issued on Monday 16th Nov.
I wonder if the fee will be similar to ARAE $11.5K?

Its should be interesting.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:25 am

RKQ wrote:Very well said CK. I have to agree fully with the points you have raised.

Details of Technical Assessment will be issued on Monday 16th Nov.
I wonder if the fee will be similar to ARAE $11.5K?

Its should be interesting.


RKQ,

You forget that the €11.500 required for the examination do not include for the €1,800 lectures that will describe and explain the third part of the exam.

The total cost of the examination will be €13.300.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby missarchi » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:30 am

CK wrote:RKQ,

You forget that the €11.500 required for the examination do not include for the €1,800 lectures that will describe and explain the third part of the exam.

The total cost of the examination will be €13.300.


what's the point? if you can't get a job...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby teak » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:21 pm

Seems this is just PR by all concerned.

The non-architects are still in the new Golden Pages.
They'll will be in next year's directory.
And, as far as the procedures of 'appeal' to be included in this register allow, will remain there.

John & Mary Greenhorn will still be paying thousands to draughtsmen for donkey houses.
And still more money when the planners come back with their usual bluff rebuffs and the "architect" hasn't the knowledge to calmly argue their case for them.

I doubt if people going to build a modest house will go to the RIAI site first looking for the famous register.
And then again this register has all sorts of old fogeys in it.
A share of men who are really retired for some years.
And the odd Ruairí Quinn.
Retaining these types will not generate much confidence amongst those who are looking for a modern professional architect who is fully clued-in with the latest trends in building design, currents costs, present local authority regulations on wastewater/radon gas/heating/insulating/landscaping/etc.

For sure there is a question as to the division of building design work between architects, architectural techs, engineers, landscapers, etc.
All have a role.
The Dept of Env should act to define the role of each of these professions for different types of building project, I think.
The present state of things is not fair on the ordinary punter.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby foremanjoe » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:00 pm

I think I've found a way to circumvent this whole title procedure.
Simply give yourself the title 'The Dude'.

All you have to do is show up and say to a client "Hi, I'm The Dude and I'm going to design your house for you."
"So, you're the architect?"
"I'm The Dude."
"Ok."

The only possible flaw that I could think of is that the Coen brothers may have copyrighted the title.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby RKQ » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:56 pm

teak wrote:Seems this is just PR by all concerned.

The non-architects are still in the new Golden Pages.
They'll will be in next year's directory.
And, as far as the procedures of 'appeal' to be included in this register allow, will remain there.


Non-architects provide a service to the majority of the public. Sometimes Clients have a very clear ideal what "they" want and what "they" can afford. The removal or cull of non-architects, if thats the intention, would be totally unjust. A monopoly is never a good thing.
Even applying for Planning Permission has become quite technical, sometimes getting an application validated is an achievement in itself.:) A strict validation process has resulted in the removal of many unqualified people.

IMO RIAI registered Architects have nothing to fear from anyone, IF they are good Designers with a good reputation. Scaring the public is in nobody's interest.

teak wrote:John & Mary Greenhorn will still be paying thousands to draughtsmen for donkey houses.
And still more money when the planners come back with their usual bluff rebuffs and the "architect" hasn't the knowledge to calmly argue their case for them.


John & Mary might like that donkey house! To them it might be their dream home. When it comes to house design, the general public have conservative tastes. They tend to look back to the past rather than to the future.

teak wrote:I doubt if people going to build a modest house will go to the RIAI site first looking for the famous register.


I agree fully. People tend to ask around before they retain a professional. Reputation and word of mouth is so important. Too much scare mongering could have a very negatitive backlash on RIAI members.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby PlanE » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:32 pm

RKQ wrote:
An independent Registration body is essential - just like the UK.



In the UK architects have to pay both bodies a subscription for what is in effect the same duty: the maintenance, control and promotion of a registrar for architects. I'd be more than happy to limit my expenses right now, and I really don't see the need for dividing up the duty.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:09 am

PlanE wrote:In the UK architects have to pay both bodies a subscription for what is in effect the same duty: the maintenance, control and promotion of a registrar for architects. I'd be more than happy to limit my expenses right now, and I really don't see the need for dividing up the duty.


No Plan E, what you stated above is not the truth... Architects in the UK just have the choice... If they want to be registered with the 2 bodies, then they pay the 2 fees, otherwise one registration and then 1 fee is enough...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby gunter » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:47 pm

I though the title 'Architect' was supposed to be registered now :confused:

This is from an ad. placed by an insurance outfit called 'RenaissanceRe', in the appointments section of today's Irish Times.

Has anyone any idea what these people are talking about?

[INDENT]'LEAD TECHNICAL ARCHITECT'[/INDENT]

[INDENT]''We are looking to a recruit a lead technical architect to join our development department. The purpose of the role is to ensure that long-term architectural requirements for the company's applications are provided for in common design tooling and technical run-time frameworks and platforms. The successful candidate will architect the tooling and platforms such that applications can be built rapidly, with minimal understanding of the underlying technology concerns. They will also provide input to the best practice. Usage of our platforms and assist in tecnology governance across the company''.[/INDENT]
?
Ok, I see they've press-ganged the word architect into use as a verb in one of the sentences, which I suppose is a clue, but some of the other sentences don't seem to have any verbs at all.

Btw, in what world are the qualities of '' passion for rapid innovation, creativity and a strong belief in the entrepreneurial culture . . . '' got anything to do with becoming an insurance man?
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby reddy » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:05 pm

O god... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_architecture

Horrible stuff! My brain melted after the first sentence. "Tarchitecture"!! ha.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby CK » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:51 pm

reddy wrote:O god... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_architecture

Horrible stuff! My brain melted after the first sentence. "Tarchitecture"!! ha.


No worries, all this non sense is in the line with the registration of architects today... One may practice architecture on a full time basis, without being permitted to call himself an architect...

The term “Architect” which was defining a person practicing a profession is now defining a title. The question now is “How do we now call the professionals practicing architecture but not having this title?”

Some propose to call them architectural technicians... But, following descent logic, architectural technicians should be practicing architectural technology... Is preparing a planning application architectural technology? Is sketching the first lines of a project architectural technology? Meeting clients? Understanding a brief? Composing forms and space? Choosing colors?

I think that architecture is a mix of technology and art and that the 2 cannot be dissociated. I think also that the people who pretend protecting the public and who are very fast to protect their own interests instead by changing the term "architect" into a title should be ashamed of their unethical behavior. They are acting in the line of those who have destroyed the world economy by lying to the public and focusing on their personal interests instead of the interests of the wider community.

Some people may think that my statement is aggressive, but none can deny that it is also true. To protect the public would be to protect the practice of architecture and not to protect the interests of some qualified individuals.
...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby BenK » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:41 pm

I honestly don't really see what your problem is CK. Go through the necessary RIAI procedures or don't. I think they have it laid out pretty clear as to what has to be done to become registered. You seem to be doing a lot of whinging.

They are acting in the line of those who have destroyed the world economy by lying to the public and focusing on their personal interests instead of the interests of the wider community

And frankly I think the above statement is ridiculously over the top. What exactly are they lying to the public about? How are they not focusing on the interests of the wider community? They are trying to ensure that people who call themselves architects are indeed what they say they are, i.e., therefore focusing on the interests of the wider community.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Building Control Bill

Postby henno » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:26 pm

gunter wrote:I though the title 'Architect' was supposed to be registered now :confused:

This is from an ad. placed by an insurance outfit called 'RenaissanceRe', in the appointments section of today's Irish Times.

Has anyone any idea what these people are talking about?

[INDENT]'LEAD TECHNICAL ARCHITECT'[/INDENT]

[INDENT]''We are looking to a recruit a lead technical architect to join our development department. The purpose of the role is to ensure that long-term architectural requirements for the company's applications are provided for in common design tooling and technical run-time frameworks and platforms. The successful candidate will architect the tooling and platforms such that applications can be built rapidly, with minimal understanding of the underlying technology concerns. They will also provide input to the best practice. Usage of our platforms and assist in tecnology governance across the company''.[/INDENT]
?
Ok, I see they've press-ganged the word architect into use as a verb in one of the sentences, which I suppose is a clue, but some of the other sentences don't seem to have any verbs at all.

Btw, in what world are the qualities of '' passion for rapid innovation, creativity and a strong belief in the entrepreneurial culture . . . '' got anything to do with becoming an insurance man?


good question.

The 'title' technical architect is specific the computer programming world and not the built environment.This insurance firm is looking for a programmer.

I dont know why CK is bring Architectural technicians into the mix because that is another matter altogether. the term architectural technician has been exempted from restriction under the building control bill.
The title 'Architectural Technologist' exists only to those who hold MCIAT status from CIAT. This membership level allows a member to practise in a self employed status.

I suppose the question as to 'what is an architect' is a lot clearer within the design team of a medium or large project. Its at domestic level that the explanation becomes blurred.

reading the 'official journal of the european union' L 255 it states the training of an architect should lead to the acquisition of 11 skills....
many of these 'skills' are more applicable to enginners and technicians than university educated Architects in todays education system.
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