Pedestrianisation in Cork

Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby jungle » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:57 pm

I'd swear we had another thread on this, but I'm damned if I can find it.

Recently we've seen the pedestrianisation of Faulkner's Lane and now it looks as though there is to be partial pedestrianisation of the area around Emmet Place. The kind of raisable bollards used to allow daytime pedestrianisation of the Oliver Plunkett St area have been placed at the junction of Emmet Place and Half Moon St/Academy St. Hopefully, this combined with the extra pedestrian traffic down Faulkner's Lane may see some life brought into the Bridge St/Perry St area.

So what other areas could do with being restricted to traffic?

I've never really seen the necessity to allow traffic onto the half of Pembroke St that has it, nor Phoenix St/Crane Lane.

Would there be any sense in pedestrianising the back lanes around Morrisson's Island? At the moment, they don't really provide access to anything and are primarily used by kerb-crawlers after dark. Given its proximity to the South Mall, could the area develop once that traffic is removed or would it become even more run down with not even prostitutes to be found in the area.

Finally, is there a case for sealing Oliver Plunkett St off to cars between 9pm and 3am. Now, you'd want to be mad to drive down it at 2am anyway, but all the evidence is that there are a number of mad people out there. I mentioned this to a garda acquaintance of mine and she thought it would be a good idea from a public safety point of view too (provided of course that garda cars still had access!).
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby rofbp » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:41 pm

time to bite the bullet and remove all cars from st. patrick's street.

allow buses all the way through, taxis limited to portion between academy street and merchants quay only.

limit deliveries to 2000-0800

was that not the original intention when it was redeveloped?
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby bosco » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:18 am

rofbp wrote:time to bite the bullet and remove all cars from st. patrick's street.

allow buses all the way through, taxis limited to portion between academy street and merchants quay only.

limit deliveries to 2000-0800

was that not the original intention when it was redeveloped?


Two reasons why it would be a non-starter for the foreseeable future:

1. City centre traders would freak out
2. There really isn't enough capacity on alternative routes to stop through traffic on Patrick St.
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby rofbp » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:47 pm

bosco wrote:Two reasons why it would be a non-starter for the foreseeable future:

1. City centre traders would freak out
2. There really isn't enough capacity on alternative routes to stop through traffic on Patrick St.


they might not.
i don't have any figures to support this, but what percentage of shoppers actually drive through patrick street. i think it is pretty small.

in sligo, the local council have proposed re opening pedestrianised areas to cars, and the local chamber of commerce is opposing the proposal, as are The O'Connell Street Trader's Associations and Bord Failte North West:
http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=6653

http://www.ttrsa.com/news-and-views/in-the-news/16-blog/23-oconnell-street-sligo-1

http://sligomodelblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/an-open-letter-to-sligo-borough-councillors/

patrick street itself has pretty limited capacity now due to slow speeds. i doubt that an alternative cannot be put in place
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby Yossarian » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:44 pm

great to see a new thread popping up, especially on an interesting topic.

as regards patrick street, i'd love to see it fully pedestrianised but the time isn't right, nor possibly is the alternative infrastructure. instead i'd go for pedestrianising all but the widest roads in the city centre, to allow traffic through, while activating the many lanes and back streets that characterise Cork.

I've always thought the streets between the river and washington street (Hanover street, little cross street, Hanover place, little anne street, crosses green quay) could do with pedestrianisation. along with tobin street and tuckey street, they hold the potential to be a lovely pedestrian area not unlike the paul street/french church street area. see my wee diagram attached :o the streets already hold a number of bars and restaurants including Reardens, Havana Browns, Bob Fox's, Cubins, Long Island, Soho, and other small to medium businessesincluding the Kino (if it stays open), and the area has a good quality of old Cork brick and limestone architecture too.

there's also possibly a case for a small pedestrian bridge linking crosses green quay to tuckey street via a new route through the soon-to-be-closed brewery. this route could coexist very peacefully with the brewery buildings and better integrate that corner of the city, as well as play a role in any new tourism use for the brewery (see my second attached image) :)
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby bosco » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:52 am

I like your ideas Yossarian, it would be great to see it happen. (I'm reading Catch 22 at the moment, had to laugh a little in typing that last sentence!)
There are, however, some private apartment developments on Little Hannover st with car park access off the street so full pedestrianisation wouldn't be possible. Maybe a compromise like the Oliver Plunkett st setup would work here?
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby bosco » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:59 am

Just looking at the above images, I wish that some long-forgotten and extremely rich Cork ex-pat would donate a huge sum of money to the city* to purchase the Beamish brewery site and the Grand Parade hotel site, and turn the majority of them into open parkland with perhaps some tourism/arts-related or civic buildings. There's a calamitous shortage of green space in the city centre, and it would be great to take advantage of the currently neglected, meandering sections of the river around the south gate and Crosses Green, while also protecting the historic core of the city.

*because there's no other way I can see it happening!
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby jungle » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:25 am

Yossarian wrote:there's also possibly a case for a small pedestrian bridge linking crosses green quay to tuckey street via a new route through the soon-to-be-closed brewery. this route could coexist very peacefully with the brewery buildings and better integrate that corner of the city, as well as play a role in any new tourism use for the brewery (see my second attached image) :)


The good news is that there is provision for such a bridge in the South Parish Area Action Plan. See pages 4/5. The bad news is that it doesn't seem to be budgeted for.
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby barneymagee » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:26 pm

According to the council's Development Plan 2009 to 2016 it is planned to convert most of the city centre into a pedestrian priority zone.
It seems like a good idea but the traders will fight it strongly. I agree with the sentence below about not banning cars completely because they can add safety late at night. The Merchant's Quay end of Patrick's Street can be very quiet at night.

http://www.corkcitydevelopmentplan.ie

13.78 It is a longer term objective of the Council to develop a pedestrian priority core on the City Centre
island between North Main Street/South Main Street and Custom House Quay.This will not preclude
the use of streets like St. Patrick's Street by vehicles in principle but where possible will limit vehicular
movement to public transport and taxis during normal trading hours and upgrade public transport
provision into and out of the City Centre. In some cases total pedestrianisation may be considered (e.g.
on smaller City Centre lanes) but the intention would be to develop a traffic management system that
could provide for the needs of City Centre users throughout the day. The presence of vehicles in the
evening can be desirable as they contribute towards actual safety and the perception of safety due to
the additional surveillance and activity provided by vehicles and drivers.
P O L I C Y 1 3 . 3 2
Pedestrian Priority Core
It is the policy of the City Council to facilitate a pedestrian priority core at the heart of the
City Centre that prioritises pedestrian activity and movement and reinforces the Centre as
a desirable destination for pedestrians.
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby barneymagee » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:26 pm

According to the council's Development Plan 2009 to 2016 it is planned to convert most of the city centre into a pedestrian priority zone.
It seems like a good idea but the traders will fight it strongly. I agree with the sentence below about not banning cars completely because they can add safety late at night. The Merchant's Quay end of Patrick's Street can be very quiet at night.

http://www.corkcitydevelopmentplan.ie

13.78 It is a longer term objective of the Council to develop a pedestrian priority core on the City Centre
island between North Main Street/South Main Street and Custom House Quay.This will not preclude
the use of streets like St. Patrick's Street by vehicles in principle but where possible will limit vehicular
movement to public transport and taxis during normal trading hours and upgrade public transport
provision into and out of the City Centre. In some cases total pedestrianisation may be considered (e.g.
on smaller City Centre lanes) but the intention would be to develop a traffic management system that
could provide for the needs of City Centre users throughout the day. The presence of vehicles in the
evening can be desirable as they contribute towards actual safety and the perception of safety due to
the additional surveillance and activity provided by vehicles and drivers.
P O L I C Y 1 3 . 3 2
Pedestrian Priority Core
It is the policy of the City Council to facilitate a pedestrian priority core at the heart of the
City Centre that prioritises pedestrian activity and movement and reinforces the Centre as
a desirable destination for pedestrians.
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby Cliff Barnes » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:08 pm

How about Coburg St and Devonshire streets ?

Could be a nice area with existing bars and decent scale of buildings there.

Thw whole area including Bridge St. could do with partial pedestrianisation along with the streets at the back of Easons and the Savoy leading down to the quays.
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby Radioactiveman » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:35 pm

Perhaps existing pedestrianised zones could be properly monitored first of all:

1. Emmett Square - in tandem with the building work at Faulkner's Lane, this entire square has become a free parking zone for shoppers and construction vehicles. The construction vehicles should sort themselves out shortly, but the shoppers will be harder to shift!

2. Grand Parade (Western Side Pavement) with access provided for the Citi Carpark (which is currently being "redeveloped" flouting every planning law in the book) vehicles are gaining access to the pavement and parking regularly.

Why pedestrianise more of Cork City if we won't enforce current zones.
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby Yossarian » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:54 am

by Jungle:
So what other areas could do with being restricted to traffic?

I've never really seen the necessity to allow traffic onto the half of Pembroke St that has it, nor Phoenix St/Crane Lane.

Would there be any sense in pedestrianising the back lanes around Morrisson's Island? At the moment, they don't really provide access to anything and are primarily used by kerb-crawlers after dark. Given its proximity to the South Mall, could the area develop once that traffic is removed or would it become even more run down with not even prostitutes to be found in the area.

Finally, is there a case for sealing Oliver Plunkett St off to cars between 9pm and 3am. Now, you'd want to be mad to drive down it at 2am anyway, but all the evidence is that there are a number of mad people out there. I mentioned this to a garda acquaintance of mine and she thought it would be a good idea from a public safety point of view too (provided of course that garda cars still had access!).


maybe the real question to ask is how ought Cork develop in future? does Cork need or warrant pedestrianization? do the roads, streets and alleys suit it? if so, which ones? how can Cork evolve to become a better version of itself? how can it develop as a city without aping other cities? how can the nature of Cork, an Irish city chock full of history both homegrown and colonial, support and nurture the development not only of it's buildings but it's self actualisation as a city of international peership, and develop character of weight? many of us, though not all, love our city, for the unique character, built form, urban realm, geography, lanes, streets, avenues, locals unique dialect, culture and customs, older developments and some newer ones, the overriding, eminating, pulsing potential of a city unpolished but showing every characteristic of a diamond in the rough.

I for one adore Cork. i want to see it become everything it can be, much as a father does a child, though i'm aware it is the city that has fathered me in ways. and as a father encourges his child i too shy from moulding it into the shape of its more successful contemporaries, but see it as more than that, as a city of standing in it's own and unique way, like an Amsterdam, a Glasgow, a New York. Cork can be awesome, a place with mystery, joy, and character.

how can we achieve this? pedestrianisation? do we celebrate the alleys and lanes that permeate through Cork, a lá Amsterdam? is it the marshy, watery nature of the historical city, a lá Venice? do we celebrate the countryside that's made us famous, with a thriving market (coal quay, st. peter's, english)? do we bolster our reputation as a home of culture, with Christy, Rory G, Cillian Murphy? (opera house, Glucksmann, Crawford, new docklands museums & venues)? what else?

I'm talking beyond individual developments, and above planning, i'm talking about what Cork is, and what it could be. thoughts?
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Re: Pedestrianisation in Cork

Postby Leesider » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:16 pm

To add my tuppence worth maybe we should look to enhance the pedestrianised laneways we have before we go on to conquer newer parts of city with pedestrainisation. From the city centre through to the Coal Quay, over the Millenium Bridge and up through the narrow pedestrianised alleyways we have the city centre link to Shandon (the area with the most tourist attractions in Cork city). Instead of enhancing these streets, gates have been erected at either end so as night time strolls are effectively blocked, night time being past 8pm. This creates the wrong atmosphere for the cultural centre of Cork and instead of visually stimulating the area we are shutting it off. I understand why it was done, anti-social reasons, but this is very short sighted IMHO and we would be better to make the area more welcoming os as to stem the anti-social behaviour.
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