Parnell Square redevelopment

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby notjim » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:56 pm

gunter wrote: . . . the leaden sculpture . . .
.


I don't agree with you regarding the Children of Lir; I don't find it leaden, but more importantly, I don't find it Anglo-Saxon, in fact, I don't think the Anglo-Saxon world is united in how they commemorate their dead, American's die for their friends and their memorials, with one famous, glorious, exception, are realistic figurative statues, even the Vietnam memorial has a little bronze action scene nearby, the wall seemed too weird when proposed to be allowed to stand alone. The British died for an ideal of valour and out of a social obligation and they favour expressionist statues and lists of names, we died for the dead and for a fairytale we only half believed and our most noted memorials are either graves, grave-like, or representations of myths.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby gunter » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:14 am

Come on notjim, those swans are never gettin' off the ground.

OK the sculpture has qualities, but flight isn't one of them and anyway, it's the whole assembly that doesn't work. It feels like a cemetery, but there's no graves. The new steps down opp. the gallery help, but it's such a waste of an urban space.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:24 am

gunter wrote:Come on notjim, those swans are never gettin' off the ground.

OK the sculpture has qualities, but flight isn't one of them and anyway, it's the whole assembly that doesn't work. It feels like a cemetery, but there's no graves. The new steps down opp. the gallery help, but it's such a waste of an urban space.


"It feels like a cemetery", exactly; my point was not that it was a good memorial but that it wasn't Anglo-Saxon in that it typified the Irish memorial language of graves and legends.

Separately, I think the sculpture has a dynamics, bursting, quality which contrasts enjoyably with the heaviness of the material, I also think people are generally fond of, sentimental about, the whole ensemble because of its weird Ireland-in-the-60s atmosphere and because it is a relic of a time when Irish Republicanism could be celebrate in such a goofy, unthinking way. Certainly those of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s can't help but feel a sort of envy for a childishness we were denied.

I think you are getting out of the habit of reading my posts before replying to them!
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby gunter » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:06 am

notjim wrote:
I think you are getting out of the habit of reading my posts before replying to them!


I read your post, you just went off on a tangent and I chose not to follow.

For the record, and since we're swinging handbags here, you picked out the 'Anglo-Saxon' phrase from my post, (possibly because you may have issues in that direction) and you ignored the substance of what I was saying.

I will think about what you said though and I will go back down there, I missed it's 'dynamic, bursting quality' the last time I was there.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:12 am

gunter wrote:For the record, and since we're swinging handbags here,


I thought exclamation marks where synonymous with smilies, no?
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby alonso » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:17 am

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire's glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song's measure
Can trample an empire down.


yeh i think that's what Charlie said to CIE alright. Either that or "Fuck off with your buses. I am a man of fcking culture - PJ get me my coat, I'm going to Paris to buy some fcking shirts..." etc etc (it sounds funnier if you have Dermot Morgan's voice in your head saying it)
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby cgcsb » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:38 am

regarding the picture of the state that Broadstone station is in, I am thoroughly shocked and appauled
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby GrahamH » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:18 am

16/11/2009

Well we can safely assume now that the Parnell Square Framework Plan is well and truly defunct. If I recall correctly, work was just about to get underway c. 2006-2007 on the public domain of the Cavendish Row side, before halting in its tracks - well before the downturn took hold. Anyone remember why?

Looking back in hindsight at the generally well-considered plan, complied by Howley Harrington Architects in 2004 and published in February 2005, the figures bandied about for some works were staggering, including an eye-popping €2.3 million just for repaving, coach parking provision and planting a few trees on Palace Row! The Celtic Tiger on turbo.

Sadly, not even non-capital intensive projects like improving the curtilage and presentation of the Rotunda have come about. With a number of recent highly dubious facade re-pointing jobs on the west side of Parnell Square, which in the long term actually degrade the quality of urban fabric, it could be argued that the square has degenerated further since the publication of the report.

The same is true of its wider environment, including Parnell Street east, a grand, well-proportioned thoroughfare with an historic building stock of such strength and character as to make one ache at its dilapidated potential.

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This is a street that is grossly underrated by planners; one of the greatest assets to the north inner city if its strengths were capitalised on. Its buildings, as shown by gunter on the Dutch Billy thread, date from as far back as the early 18th century, with many more of later Georgian and Victorian origin. This is one of the best streets on the north side of the city precisely because it hasn’t received any large-scale ‘regeneration’ as with Parnell Street to the west.

In spite of a number of sites being tax-incentivised, and being located in the O’Connell Street ACA, ironically nothing but corrosive works have transpired here over the past decade. Most perplexing of all is the recent rendering over in cement of this charming cluster of late Georgian houses, all Protected Structures, at the junction with O’Connell Street.

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A handsome array of buildings that encapsulates in a nutshell the dominant building typology of Dublin, until recently the houses featured a loose coat of render, apparently a Victorian lime plaster, which almost certainly would have walked off the buildings with a decent hand chisel and a mallet.

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As the Dublin climate already tried to show us.

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Also a beautiful narrow house here with roof profile intact and Wyatt windows, one of the very last of its kind in the city.

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The potential for a full-on restoration of these merchant houses to their original brick-faced appearance is now almost certainly lost with the application of a strong cemetitious render. Of course no planning permission whatever was applied for. The owner saw fit to sit on these derelict protected buildings for probably over a decade, and then carry out the most botched job conceivable to apply to such a series of buildings. And they're still empty. The dingy vacant scaffold erected over them earlier this year should have set alarm bells ringing...

If DCC had kept the pressure on owners on Parnell Street through incentivising conservation and restoration works with grant funding, tax carrots, and offers of internal guidance and support, this may very well never have happened. The same can be said of the grubby hotel next door, probably owned by a former Garda, gaming merchant or farmer, who recently saw fit, on Protected Structures, in an ACA, to ‘tart up’ the frontage by applying yet another layer of garish paint over the brickwork. The result.

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There doesn’t seem to be an understanding that standard laws of economics do not work, and never will work, in situations and city areas such as these. A concerted effort must be made by a planning authority to effect change on the ground, by contacting owners, holding discussions, finding out stakeholders’ long term plans and proposals, outlining all available options, offer constructive support, and use the stick of CPO if necessary in the case of derelict sites. Instead however, we get opportunist, speculative applications trickling in on the whim of owners, and when they do, inevitably propose lowest common denominator of infill trash. As charted here before, this behemoth of a mega-apartment scheme, tax-incentivised using public funds, with only a miniscule fraction of a street frontage into Parnell Street, gave this back to the citizens of Dublin. Simply outrageous.

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The marvelous potential for a gracious Georgian streetscape of red brick, with marching ranks of correct sash windows and well-proportioned shopfronts, is waiting to be realised here, as much as it is sadly being eroded by the day. If this terrace was properly tackled, it would be the making of Parnell Street.

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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby alonso » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:46 am

once Fibber's built on the beer garden it was all over
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:29 am

Sadly the new Draft Development Plan doesnt offer very much to Parnell Street. It is suggesting supoporting the development of a mini Chinatown on the street. I must see if the Parnel Sq Framework is mentioned.

If I remember rightly the planned improvements were all postponed due to the uncertainty of Metro North and Luas BX. In fairness to DCC there is no point in spending €3m on paving etc if the RPA are going to come along and rip it all up.

The new Draft Dev Plan will include a policy to upgrade the public domain of the entire Grand Civic route from Parnell Sq to Christchurch.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Global Citizen » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:45 pm

Graham, you surpass yourself with every thread you post.
Well done here.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby johnglas » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:42 pm

GrahamH: with my rapidly declining first-hand experience of the city, I've refrained from posting much recently, but need to congratulate you once again on an excoriatingly accurate anlysis of the state of PStE; hope and vision everywhere seem to be taking a holiday at the moment. How can Dublin planners live with themselves?
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby GrahamH » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:59 pm

I don't envy their job, but the wider culture appears to be one of reaction rather than proaction. Even when area plans and policies such as ACAs are put in place, these constructive measures are considered to be 'done and dusted', where one can sit back with yet another objective of the Development Plan 'sorted'. Simply hoping for the best isn't enough with these measures, and it applies to all areas, whether it be Grafton Street or Marlborough Street. Proactive efforts have to be made to use these tools, rather than hope they will become relevant when necessary (and brushed under the carpet when not wanted, as with Carlton).

Ah of course it was Metro that halted works, Stephen - doh! Yes the delay is naturally understandable, but again another victim of the RPA effectively holding the ceremonial core of the city to ransom in respect of public domain improvement. If this continues, any provisions in the next Development Plan for the so-called Grand Civic Thoroughfare will soon be obsolete too! The Draft Plan makes a number of references to the north Georgian core and the need for its 'protection', particularly Parnell Square and Mountjoy Square - though one would have thought its rehabilitation would be a more appropriate term.

At least plans for the Dublin City Library in the Ambassador are still being drafted, apparently by Seán Harrington Architects - if now under tighter financial constraints - which will act as a major stimulus for the area. I can't wait to see it unfold. One of the best public decisions made for Dublin city centre in the past decade. The quietest ones tend to be.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:43 am

I suppose a proactive measure for Parnell Street etc would be if people made submissions on the Draft Plan calling for its rehabilitation and supporting the Parnell Sq Framework. The Draft Plan goes on display at the end Dec. Plenty of tine over Christmas for people to put together short subvmissions. Put your ink where you mouth is Archiseekers!
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby gunter » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:47 pm

GrahamH wrote:16/11/2009
Also a beautiful narrow house here with roof profile intact and
Wyatt windows, one of the very last of its kind in the city.

Image


You're building up quite a collection of these slim, bordering on skinny, elegant beauties there Graham.;)

I remember when this one had a superb simple shopfront to go with it's beatifully graduated Wyatt windows and then one day it was gone, replaced by a sheet of ply, and I have no picture of it.

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As Graham says, these three houses [nos. 76, 77 + 78] offer a virtual glossary of Dublin Georgian in a single tableau, 10m from the corner of O'Connell Street . . . . . or could if they were carefully conserved.

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The next four houses in the terrace are perhaps marginally less interesting, in that they have less variation, but again I would totally agree with Graham that a city sponsored programme of facade conservation would do wonders for the streetscape, the public realm, and perhaps give the whole north end of the O'Connell Street zone a much needed lift.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:27 pm

Aaah springtime in Dublin: the leaves beginning to open on trees, the freshly planted baskets and planters, the old spruce up before the start of the big tourist summer......

And on Parnell Square, the installation of some nice new useless bollards to clutter yet another corner of Dublin's Fair City.

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Don't fall off the path!!!!

The bollards complement the ranks of bus stops, a number of which only serve one route. Also add in a smattering of RTPI poles.

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Visual clutter abounds. Archiseekers with long memories might remember the spanking new public realm proposed for Parnell Square under the 2005 Framework Plan that never was. Thankfully DCC Roads department continues to make some much needed investment in the area.

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I would almost be inclined to agree (if it wasn't for your signage being a) a hideous but now commonplace defacement of a protected structure, b) probably unauthorised, and c) surely in breach of the regulations concerning election advertisements). Then again the laws of the 26 county statelet never did apply to Sinn Fein.

Around the corner on the charmingly named Cavendish Row and North Frederick Street, the commitment to quality continues:

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DCC applying a little less vigour to protecting a protected structure than to adorning city streets with municipal clutter.

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One of the area's landmark structures...made famous by the Malton print (one display nearby). This is the view for recent high profile visitors such as Albert of Monaco and of course QEII on their way to the Garden of Remembrance.

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Shopfront Guidelines anyone?
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby kefu » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:19 am

It's staggering how quickly the city has degenerated. You could carry out the same exercise in 3/4 of the city centre area and find similar. I cannot even imagine what things are going to be like in five years time.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby thebig C » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:50 pm

Agreed Kefu, but , I suppose its no surprise! The last time the City was in such a state was the 1980s. Look at the similarities, a dreadful economic cricis and acres of vacant city centre sites that had been put together by development site assemblers in the brief boom of the late 1970s.

Then again, even during more affulent times there was very little care or maintainence of properties. Alot of Irish people want the rights that go with property but not the responsibilities. Just look in suburban areas how many people have the inside of their houses decorated lavishly but their from garden is like a rubbish tip or garage forcourt!:)

The reputation of Parnell Street is so bad that it will take alot for it to ever recover. In a sense its never been right since Dublin Corporation pulled it apart for road widening over 30 years ago. Its even entered lingua franca as a definition of dereliction....several times when talking to foreigners such as Polish/Lithuanian etc about their hiome Cities , I have noticed when they want to convey the idea of an area that is run down, dangerous or seedy they refer to it as "like Parnell St"!!:)

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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:11 pm

I cant disagree with anything there...it is exactly like the 80s. And look how hard and expensive it was to try and get out of that mindset. The O'Connell IAP was supposed to change everything...but here we are back in the same area almost 14 years after that plan and look.
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:58 pm

Looks like Cavendish Row is next for the bollards
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Alek Smart » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:38 pm

StephenC wrote:Looks like Cavendish Row is next for the bollards


I wonder if,given DCC's rapidity and effectivity with erecting bollards,they might purchase some with little LED fairy-lights built in ?

Then they could install them at various darkened location's around our glorious City (WESTMORELAND St springs to mind) thus short-circuiting the Public Lighting Section's long running inability to illuminate these places....

In the absence of this type of thinking,we the People,must rely,once again,on the House of Windsor for a bit of salvation !!! :crazy:
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby exene1 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:01 pm

'Oriental enclave' recommended for Dublin

OLIVIA KELLY

DERELICTION AND urban blight which have dogged one of Dublin’s historic inner city areas could be reversed if an oriental quarter were developed on Parnell Street according to a report by the Dublin Civic Trust.

The report recommends restoration of the traditional 18th and 19th century facades, the removal of garish shopfronts and signage, new paving, lighting and trees on Parnell Street East and the creation of an off-street “oriental enclave” or village of restaurants and shops.

Commissioned by the Dublin City Business Association and Carroll’s Gifts and Souvenirs, the report criticises the “disfigurement” of the street through demolition and low-quality additions, and accuses Dublin City Council of failing to enforce planning regulations and follow through on several planned regeneration schemes for the area. Parnell Street East, running from O’Connell Street to Gardiner Street has 13 listed buildings many of which had been allowed to decline with the loss of historic joinery, windows and masonry and the addition of inappropriate elements such as PVC windows, garish paintwork, and plastic and illuminated signage. In some cases buildings lay vacant and semi-derelict but in other cases the original frontages were just hidden by modern additions and could be restored relatively easily.

Commercial activity on the street had increased over the last decade due to the influx of “ethnic businesses” attracted by low rents, but the report says “this belies the serious and long-standing problems of a lack of investment and continued degradation of its historic building stock”.

While the new-found vibrancy of the street was welcome it had become a “transient immigrant district” with a high turnover and diminishing diversity of businesses. The turnover of users was causing degradation of the fabric of buildings with short-term tenants having little interest in undertaking capital improvements.

It was also clear, the report said, that some businesses change the use or undertake developments of a building without recourse to the planning system. The lack of planning enforcement on the street was evident in the number of historic buildings falling into dereliction. Two of the most important Georgian houses on the Street, numbers 76 and 78, were in a particularly poor condition, the report says.

“Further decay is inevitable if efforts are not made by Dublin City Council to identify the owners and seek remedial works.”

The city council had also failed to maintain the public realm of the street which was “dismal when one considers its location off the premier thoroughfare of a European capital.” Lighting and street furniture was “ugly and utilitarian”, and pavements were poorly maintained and “pockmarked” with tarmac patches.

The report envisages investment by the council in the public realm and enforcement of planning legislation, while business and property owners would restore shopfronts and buildings with traditional designs and complementary new buildings.

It also plans for the creation of a new “oriental enclave” in a block bounded by North Cumberland Street, Marlborough Street and Cathal Brugha Street. The “Village” could showcase Asian architecture and design and serve as a restaurant and shopping emporium “without unduly impacting on the sensitive surrounding streets and historic area”.

Colm Carroll, a property owner on Parnell Street said the business and property owners had agreed to invest in the street and while talks with the council are at an early stage, it had “given support to our aspirations”.

Oriental food quarter branding would attract people, but the historic nature of the buildings would be respected he said.

Suggestions made by former lord mayor Gerry Breen that a Chinese Arch should be erected at the entrance of the street were “unlikely to be a runner”, Mr Carroll said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 05635.html
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby notjim » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:57 pm

"Oriental enclave". For the love of all that's holy what kind of report uses a word, "Oriential", that is regarded as the symbol of a patronizing and exoticizing attitude to Asians to suggest making an "enclave" to "showcase Asian architecture and design and serve as a restaurant and shopping emporium"!
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby gunter » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:31 am

notjim is right, 'Oriental enclave' is not exactly PC, they should have run with Chinatown
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Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:33 am

I suppose they live and learn
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