Carlton Cinema Development

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby ac1976 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:07 am

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0813/1224252500702.html
"Despite having been granted permission from Dublin City Council, the board notes that the development is in conflict with several of the council’s statutory plans including the Architectural Conservation Area designation. The proposed scheme would disrupt the historic street pattern and was “over-scaled” in relation to the historic buildings around it."

It does bring up the question of how the council can grant permission despite it conflicting with the statutary area plans that it is also responsable for.
Perhaps these area plans need to be amended to allow for better innovation of design as long as it is beneficial to the identity and culture of the city!

Anyway the Architectural Conservation Area designation of O'connell street hasn't rescued it from crappy shops and shitty shop fronts. Only innovative design can do this now.
Even the delapadated grandeur the street had up until 2000 is gone and the original buildings now even look out of place there.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby gunter » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:44 am

GrahamH wrote:Everything that was required of this scheme has been achieved. The Bord delivers yet again.

PLANS FOR a 13-storey building topped by a “park in the sky” at the heart of the proposed Carlton Cinema development on O’Connell Street have been rejected by An Bord Pleanála.

OLIVIA KELLY

The board has directed developers Chartered Land to significantly scale back the overall plans for the development of the 5.5-acre site in the centre of Dublin city, and omit the 13-storey building, before it makes a final decision on permission.

The scheme pays “insufficient respect” to the classical form of O’Connell Street, involves too much demolition, and conflicts with several statutory plans for the area, the board has said.

Chartered Land, which is controlled by shopping centre developer Joe O’Reilly, was granted permission for the commercial and residential development, centred on the site of the former Carlton Cinema, by Dublin City Council last December.

This was subject to a large number of appeals to An Bord Pleanála, including several from groups seeking to protect the National Monument at number 16 Moore Street which was used by the leaders of the 1916 Rising. A public hearing on the development was held last April.

The board has this week written to Chartered Land seeking 16 significant modifications, which must be submitted before November 2nd. Chief among these is the omission of the “iconic building” – a 35-metre structure topped by a sloping public park, which was to be the focal point of the scheme. This element should be removed from the plans and the redesigned buildings should not exceed the height of the Arnott’s scheme – a neighbouring development for which the board has approved a seven-storey scale.

Despite having been granted permission from Dublin City Council, the board notes that the development is in conflict with several of the council’s statutory plans including the Architectural Conservation Area designation. The proposed scheme would disrupt the historic street pattern and was “over-scaled” in relation to the historic buildings around it.

The revised development should retain the original street pattern of the area, the extent of demolition should be reduced, and the existing buildings on Henry Street and Moore Street should be substantially retained.

The board also wants a redesign of the entrance to the development from O’Connell Street. The current proposals are for a 35-metre wide entrance partially fronted by a screen of thin, paired columns topped by a flat canopy, with the entrance buildings cut on a diagonal representing a funnel shape.

This entrance should be reduced to the width of Henry Street and set at right angles to O’Connell Street following “a traditional format” the board said. The entrance buildings should also use more traditional materials it said. Parking for the development should be reduced from 1,100 spaces to not more than 500.

While the letter imposes huge changes, it does state that the site is “general suitable for the type of development proposed”, suggesting that permission would be granted if the necessary modifications are made.

© The Irish Times


I don't think it was ever envisaged that ABP would take on this role of re-designing, or directing the re-design of, major urban schemes, such as here or the 'Opera Centre' in Limerick, but fair play to them for not just flipping a coin and cashing their pay-cheques.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:50 am

I really don't see how a "park in the sky" behind OCS would detract from anything on the street proper.

Seems like a great idea just thrown out the window, they could have really made that special.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby JoePublic » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:34 am

Yixian wrote:Seems like a great idea just thrown out the window, they could have really made that special.


Agreed. What would have been a free amenity to the tax payer. Could they not just have reduced it in height rather than instructing it be ommitted?

Planning process is a bit nuts. Applicant submits plans to Dublin City Council. Dublin City Council gives opinion, applicant redesigns plans, knowing full well that ABP will just demand another complete redesign later. What a waste of time and money. Could there not be some consultation between DCC and ABP at the beginning of the process, or just cut out the middle man.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby GrahamH » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:48 am

Listen, this is symptomatic of planning the length and breadth of the state, where planning authorities contort and wriggle around their own polices and development plans to suit the majority of applications, especially major ones, that come up for assessment.

Aside from the myriad of other matters which may be deemed subjective with this case, on the simple matter of the Architectural Conservation Area alone, what was allowed through by DCC just defies reason. An ACA is a legally-binding statutory instrument, akin to Protected Structure or National Monument designations. Unlike policies of a development plan to which a planning authority need only have regard, an ACA is enforceable in the courts in terms of what is deemed to materially alter the character of the designated area. It is outrageous in this case that a whole chunk of a handsome terrace in the ACA be swept away (on Henry Street), that an historic, near grid-like street pattern be gouged out, and the readability of that area should be altered in order to cater for a short-term commercial gimmick of a monolith sloping structure with roof garden which displays absolutely no connection with that area. This is not to say that the area must be preserved in amber; it simply means that the existing context must be accounted for in the design, layout and architecture of the new quarter. The 'feature' garden building was simply rammed in as a token glitter ball with no relevance to its environs. The new entrance to O'Connell Street was similarly lacking in an appropriate interpretation of the urban street pattern. I fully agree with what has been ordered in respect of this junction, not just because a Henry Street-scaled opening it is a more sensitive solution in this historic environment, but moreover because it affords the opportunity to build something that we have been unable to do over the past two decades - namely a new street. To follow the established street pattern not only better integrates the new scheme, it also helps to avoid Ilac Round II, whereby a new city quarter is created which will end up isolated and detached in terms of character and fashionability in years to come. The proposed wide columnar screen was a complete affront to that concept, never mind its existing environment.

I'd like to see the Bord's order too, if anyone has it...
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby alonso » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:38 am

is it an actual order or just a letter to the applicant - in other words will it be made available on their site. It's not there now and they only publish "decisions" not what is in essence an AI request
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby dc3 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:43 am

rumpelstiltskin wrote:Oh well god forbid we should do anything different - a park in the sky, just imagine! In Calgary, Canada, there's a park indoors on the fourth level of the skyscraper, and it's marketed as a tourist attraction and is very popular.


There is indeed, and very nice it is but one key word is indoors.
Now while Calgary has very pronounced climatic variation compared to Dublin, an outdoor high rooftop venue is one that has yet to catch the imagination of Dubliners.

The saga continues.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby OisinT » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:50 am

ac1976 wrote:Does anyone have a link to ABP's letter?
I assume they rejected the park in the sky because it looked silly and was inaccesable being in the sky, Parks are usually at ground level.
I think there were also objections that the restaurants were at the top levles of the development aswell and hopefully ABP have rejected on these grounds.

It would be great to see this go ahead with some rivisions addressing these and the other issues brought up in the process.

wait... what's wrong with having a restaurant at the top again? I'd eat there.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby ac1976 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:56 am

OisinT wrote:wait... what's wrong with having a restaurant at the top again? I'd eat there.


Well there's nothing wrong with having a restaurant at the top, but it would be good to have some at ground level so they can interact with the street, as opposed to just having display windows at ground level and forcing you to go all the way through the shopping center to get to the restaurant.

They have dona a good job of this at Dundrum by the lake where there are numerous restaurants and terraces.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby ac1976 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:30 pm

OUCH!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dublin City Council criticised over decisions
Thursday, 13 August 2009 12:40
An Taisce has said there should be resignations in Dublin City Council after An Bord Pleanála again criticised council permission for high-rise development.

The board have indicated to Chartered Land that it will reject its plan for the Cartlon site on O'Connell Street involving a 13-storey building topped by a sloping park.

In a Section 132 notice sent to the developers, they note that the plan was given permission by Dublin City Council even though it is in conflict with the council's own Architectural Conservation Area designation.

Ian Lumley of An Taisce said this follows the board's overturning of Sean Dunne's Ballsbridge development scheme, which was given permission by the council even though it too was in conflict with its own development plan.

Welcoming the board's observations in respect of the Carlton site, Mr Lumley said it was 'a total slap in the face for Dublin City Council, it should be resigning time for senior management and planning'.

A spokesman for Dublin City Council said they will not be commenting in any way.

A spokesman for Chartered Land said the company will be considering the board's request for a redesign.

It is understood it will be at least two months before revised plans will be ready for a decision by An Bord Pleanála.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0813/planning.html
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby dc3 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:53 pm

An Taisce has now said there should be resignations in Dublin City Council after An Bord Pleanála criticised the council permission for the Carlton development.

Doubtless that will happen at enforcement speed, or similar.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby thebig C » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:07 pm

Quel surprize. I generally hate developers and their ilk. But, this could have been a real attraction for Dublin. Of course arguements like that are wasted on the closed minds in ABP.

C
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:12 pm

At least it had some form of public space attached to it, rather than just retail and office space. All this development in recent years and where are the big draws for tourists? Nobody will visit Dublin just to go shopping, people would visit Dublin to check out a park in the sky amongst other things.

Tourism seems to be being forgotten at a time when it's apparently going to be becoming more and more important to Dublin.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:56 pm

Will you do everyone a favour and shut the fuck up about tourists. Most of those cities that you want Dublin to copy didn't end up like they did by catering for tourists, they did it by catering for their own citizens.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:00 pm

rumpelstiltskin wrote:Will you do everyone a favour and shut the fuck up about tourists. Most of those cities that you want Dublin to copy didn't end up like they did by catering for tourists, they did it by catering for their own citizens.


Profanity definitely helps get your point across. I don't claim to be a genius, I am trying to learn about city planning whilst at the same time expressing my opinion, i'm sure you know more about this sort of thing than I do and I welcome your corrections but you don't have to be horrible about it - what's the point? It just comes across as rude and arrogant.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby tommyt » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:19 pm

thebig C wrote:Quel surprize. I generally hate developers and their ilk. But, this could have been a real attraction for Dublin. Of course arguements like that are wasted on the closed minds in ABP.

C

a north facing greenhouse with a harry Ramsdens and a few yukkas in pots on the 13th floor of a mall:rolleyes: they'd be flocking in from all corners of the globe to see that one, sure feck the Development Plan and all that statutory 'document of the people' shite as well.

Lumley's right- enough people on here know there is a poisonous cabal of pseuds and spoofers trading as our neo-urbanist betters &overlords in Wood Quay (with some honourable exceptions I know) .
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby lostexpectation » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:50 pm

wheres the evidence this would have worked?
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby OisinT » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:58 pm

If you build it they will come...

Forget about attracting tourists, just build properly for a functional city and the people that live there and tourism will follow. One thing about Ireland is that with the amount of so called "Irish" around the world, tourism is inevitable.
What we need to do is FIX OCS. If this is supposed to be a public transport hub for the city and a shopping area etc. it needs to function for the citizens of Dublin. If it does that properly then it will do that properly for tourists too.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Yixian » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:36 pm

I don't like the idea of buildings specific for tourists either, I just meant public spaces, activities, attractions - things to do that isn't shopping or working. Things to entertain the public and the tourists.

That was my only point.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby gunter » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:52 pm

tommyt wrote:. . . . people on here know there is a poisonous cabal of pseuds and spoofers trading as our neo-urbanist betters & overlords in Wood Quay (with some honourable exceptions I know).


:)
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby aj » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:48 pm

"Fingal will be gone in its entirety and Dublin Bus re-faced as it is a Protected Structure with a near-fully fledged townhouse surviving behind its deceptive curtain wall. Just a correction from earlier, the RDH has vanished in its entirety, with only the gable walls left standing for the benefit of No. 42 and the AIB"

graham I am intrigue about the dublin bus building I thought it was pure 60s have you any more details of what has survived of the townhouses ?

surely if they are being refaced tey should have their facades restored
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby OisinT » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:30 am

aj wrote:"Fingal will be gone in its entirety and Dublin Bus re-faced as it is a Protected Structure with a near-fully fledged townhouse surviving behind its deceptive curtain wall. Just a correction from earlier, the RDH has vanished in its entirety, with only the gable walls left standing for the benefit of No. 42 and the AIB"

graham I am intrigue about the dublin bus building I thought it was pure 60s have you any more details of what has survived of the townhouses ?

surely if they are being refaced tey should have their facades restored

That's the impression I was under... they will be restored back to their original townhouse style. Anything would be better than what is there now!
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby GrahamH » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:51 am

Okay, so a little back-tracking is in order here. Information I received from a well-informed source turns out to be not so much incorrect, as incorrectly placed. I hadn't a chance to follow it up in the meantime. Slap on the hand for taking architects at face value...

This person's surprise upon happening 'original interiors' behind the Dublin Bus facade on reflection must relate to the neighbouring house with Victorian facade at No. 60, which interconnects, and makes a heck of a lot more sense. Certainly the ground floor has an historic interior. What made the initial story credible is that the gable walls of the original townhouse on the site of the modern Dublin Bus building do appear to survive behind the giant proscenium arch of stone cladding. What made me so surprised to think that interiors still existed is that a) this would surely be common knowledge, and b) this plot was occupied by one of the largest mansions on Sackville Mall, the interiors of which, had they survived, would surely be of some significance.

So no mystery townhouse alas - unless someone can tell us otherwise?
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Bago » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:55 am

souless characterless glass alluminium chrome birch lavender highstreet brandnames elevators walkways cobblelock paving plastic signs ventilation shafts contempary catalogue street furniture clipped topiary metal pots and a wet yourself tower element.....christ, STW snowglobe valhalla.
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Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:22 am

Bago wrote:souless characterless glass alluminium chrome birch lavender highstreet brandnames elevators walkways cobblelock paving plastic signs ventilation shafts contempary catalogue street furniture clipped topiary metal pots and a wet yourself tower element.....christ, STW snowglobe valhalla.


...now that you mention it!
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