Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby ac1976 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:08 pm

I came accross this site by chance, it's a project done as part of a masters degree in NCAD and it's absolutely facinating.

http://www.venetikidis.com/aris/Dublin-Transport_MA.html

A new vision for public transport based on what we have, what is being built and some common sense and good international proactice. The result really is quite amazing.

There are some maps which look exactly like maps of transport you might find on the continent! It really is facinating to see how our public transport might be if we were a continental European city!


Maybe one day?....

Frank McDonald wrote recently about Busways, which are like tramways without rails, and this is based on this concept but look what it can deliver! When you see the maps it really does impress.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0527/1224271228154.html
I wouldn't be surprised if Frank got his inspirition for that article from this very project!
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby Cathal Dunne » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:22 pm

This is absolutely brilliant! I would love to see Dublin's transport re-oriented along those lines as that would see a significant improvement in Dublin public transport. It would free up the O'Connell St/Dame St. axis from the ridiculous number of buses which currently drive through it. It would bring life back to a lot of forgotten parts of Dublin and make the place a lot more attractive to tourists and make it easier for natives like ourselves.

I think I may just print out the map of current routes for my own use!
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby StephenC » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:05 pm

What an absolutely brilliant piece of work. The level of detail and analysis is impressive. It blows Dublin Bus's plans out of the water.
Well done!
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby gunter » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:21 pm

I like the way they've made the NCAD look twice the size of Guinness :)

proper order.

The big debate for me will be whether I take the Emmet into the planning office later, or wait for the Yeats
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby ac1976 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:02 pm

I didnt realise how recent this project is, the student is actually displaying it at the moment in NCAD as his M.A. Project in case anyone is intersted in popping along...:

The maps are presented along with information walls at the:

National College of Art and Design
Ground floor School of Design
100 Thomas Street
Dublin 8

All are welcome and entry is free. Opening times are:

12.- 20. June 2010

Saturdays: 10:00 - 17:00
Sundays: 12:00 - 17:00
Weekdays: 10:00 - 20:00
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby reddy » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:52 pm

That's a really impressive project alright. Hopefully some eyes in the department of transport will spot it.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby PVC King » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:59 pm

One very notable finding was that the smallest existing usage of any mode was 'car driven by somebody else'

I think that there will be some very empirical data in this project with particular reference to the radial routes; if this project could acheive one thing it must be an acceptance at Govt level that different modes are appropriate to different existing and planned development densities.

I would however have reservations that the bus is so important as to warrant underground tunnels at locations such as Christchurch and St Green. That said you would strongly hope that when the new transport authority are framing the new system starting with the existing building blocks of

1. Existing Dart
2. Existing Commuter Rail
3. Existing Luas
4. Existing QBC
5. Planned completion of original Luas network
6. Planned Interconnector

That they will call these guys in as they have clearly put a lot of thought into areas of lower housing density and applied a transport mode that is proven to work under the right management regime in other locations.

High quality original thinking is clearly alive and well in the current post grad crop..... :D
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby cgcsb » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:22 pm

If we want real QBC's they should be located at the centre of the road and have proper stops, with real time display and traffic signal priority . Most of our current QBC 's are quite simply, long bus lanes.

Also in the above map, the luas lines still aren't linked up and there is still on luas service to northern suburbs and no metro.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby PVC King » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:31 pm

I disagree; the strategy in London's West End involves traffic calming on Oxford St and Regent Street; what I would say is that once the move to a zonal fare matrix predicated on majority weekly/monthly zone passes takes place then journeys will involve all modes. e.g. Bus from Kinsealy to Malahide, Dart to Stephens Green, Luas to College Green. If a new Luas line extended from College Green to Christchurch it would in combination with lines from Parnell Sq to St Green and the Point to Heuston have the vast majority of the 6 storey city centre within a 5 minute walk of a Luas line.

What a report like this does is in one document combine best practice from a number of cities where the bus is the dominant mode and apply it (a little too generously for me) to all of Dublin; if the system were redesigned it would give the impetus to convert many of the QBCs to real priority routes.

I am amazed this is the first time I've seen the port tunnel on a public transport map; it really is stating the bleedin......
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby EIA340600 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:57 pm

The system and map look outstanding, though there are still some bus routes remaining in the city center map that had been rendered useless by a BRT.The 65B, 49 and 130 just to pick some quick examples..It's inspiring that the ambition and imagination is still present(or "finally" present) in our graduates.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby cgcsb » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:52 pm

I'd like to see what design this person has in mind in terms of design of the BRT. Obviously some of the network, must share road space with private traffic. In order for it to differ significantly from what's already in place, it must run along the centre of the road to prevent disruption from private traffic attempting left turning movements. It also must have traffic signal priority and proper stop design. I wonder what this student envisages.

Also what does s/he study in NCAD? surely not transport engineering?
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby SeamusOG » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:52 pm

Although most of the lines involved here are buses, in many ways this arrangement reminds me for some reason of the map for the Berlin U/S-Bahn network, which provides comprehensive coverage of the city. Berlin, in my opinion, has done a very good job of creating a cohesive network from the various bits and pieces left over from the time when the city was divided. The sheer scale of that city - in terms of area rather than population - and the fact that it effectively lost half a century of coordinated development time, makes its current transport network pretty impressive, in my opinion a greater achievement than the much tighter transport networks in (admittedly smaller) German cities like Munich and Frankfurt.

Dublin, of course, has also lost many years of development time, mainly through initial poverty followed (in the wealthy years) by poor planning, sloth and waste.

Fair play to the person/people who produced this. Overall, it seems like a very good plan.:)

(But there's clearly still work to be done: for example, Merrion Square to the RDS, a fairly popular journey, would require two changes (it can currently be done directly):eek:)
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby PVC King » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:10 am

I agree that there is the approach of the German system in the image but would say that comparisons to Berlin are completely flawed given both the scale and density of that City; in comparison Frankfurt is probably a better. When you compare the transport system including buses and trams for Frankfurt you get a much better result from a planning versus tourist point of view.

I also don't think that expecting people to take a five minute walk to Mount St Bridge from Merrion Sq is a big ask; what cannot be underestimated is the change in psychology that a change to a zonal fare matrix based on weekly, monthly, annual tickets brings to usage. When you don't have to pay three times it does feel like you are making a single journey albeit with interchange.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby DjangoD » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:43 pm

Wow, what a breath of fresh air this idea is. I'm incredibly impressed.

As pointed out by some of the other posters here, there would be a few difficulties in implementing it exactly as the project suggests, but then I'm sure the guy behind it is fully aware of that.

He's really hit the nail on the head with many of his points. It's astonishing how difficult it can be to find your way around Dublin using buses and that's one of the main reasons why the idea of a metro here is so fetishised. If the bus system was simplified and prioritised, there would be many areas of the city that would benefit hugely and people would be much more willing to take that method of transport. The Luas can attribute much of its success to this, obviously.

Also, one other thing I am infuriated by, and which surely would be an easy enough situation to rectify, is the lack of real-time information at bus stops and on buses themselves. I actually avoid using buses unless I have no other option, and a large part of that is because I could be waiting at a stop for two minutes for three buses to come along or I could be waiting half an hour, regardless of what the printed timetable suggests. If I at least knew the next bus would be 30 minutes away, this would give me the option to look elsewhere and would probably result in a few less grey hairs.

I know electronic timetables have been mooted for a long time but there seems to be no real desire on Dublin Bus's part to bring them in. In my opinion, this small step would also make buses much more attractive to tourists and those not familiar with the city.

Anyway, I really hope the main heads at Dublin Bus give this chap's project a good read. And that it doesn't end up on one of those shelves he mentioned.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby cgcsb » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:46 am

there was an electronic display on a bus stop in parkgate street, but it has since been removed, I don't think it was real time though, probably just had times programmed into it.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby missarchi » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:36 pm

public spaces = public transport?

http://www.planonline.ie/page/337
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby tomredwest » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:08 pm

cgcsb wrote:I'd like to see what design this person has in mind in terms of design of the BRT. Obviously some of the network, must share road space with private traffic. In order for it to differ significantly from what's already in place, it must run along the centre of the road to prevent disruption from private traffic attempting left turning movements. It also must have traffic signal priority and proper stop design. I wonder what this student envisages.

Also what does s/he study in NCAD? surely not transport engineering?


he studied graphic design
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby soulsearcher » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:01 pm

What i love about this piece of work most is its graphic clarity and its sheer pragmatism of using an established piece of infrastructure and turning into something that looks highly integrated. Id love to see a rough cost comparison with the current metro north, for example, to see what type of bus system you might get for a few billion euros. My only fear with overhauling the bus system would be that we would most likely make the mistake of filling the streets with even more double decker buses. Ive always felt these buses are highly impractical gas-guzzlers, which are too-often empty, block pedestrian and cyclists views, promote anti-social behaviour (on the upper deck away from the driver), prevent efficient entering/exiting times at stops...

Regarding comparisons with Berlin: That city was gifted the luxury of integrated ticketing for its transport system some 70 years ago...we're still waiting (painfully) in Dublin, something to bear in mind when suggesting that something so apparently simple from one city can be easily transposed to another city with an entirely different culture and history.

...It is sad but somehow fitting that it takes the efficiency and diligence of a German student to come up with such a striking, visionary and exciting proposition for Dublin, particularly in the face of current (now highly improbable) metro and light rail proposals.

BRT all the way I say...
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby Bago » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:31 pm

soulsearcher wrote:it takes the efficiency and diligence of a German student to come up with such a striking, visionary and exciting proposition for Dublin,
BRT all the way I say...
Greek.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby DouglasHyde » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:36 am

Dublin's streets are not suitable for a bus based transport system.
Not one that wull get people out of their cars.
Come into reality folks.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby ac1976 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:59 am

DouglasHyde wrote:Dublin's streets are not suitable for a bus based transport system.
Not one that wull get people out of their cars.
Come into reality folks.


That's a ridiculous thing to say, it's about time the BRT system is properly debated.
Dublin is a perfect city for BRT as illustrated in the maps on this thread.
What is missing is the investment and commitment, the main problem is the vested interests (and I mean this has to be delivered by the RPA or similar agency NOT Dublin Bus)

Metro North will cost Billions, and serve only a few bits of Dublin.
BRT system for the entire city would cost less and serve everybody in the City.
Having a Public Transport System that is efficient comfortable and up to European City standards while connecting the whole city together is the ONLY way to get people to shift from cars. Its simply not possable to do this withough buses.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby OisinT » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:42 pm

BRT is also way worse for the environment than light rail.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby PVC King » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:47 pm

Very impressed with the work that went into this plan; it is easily the most thoroughly researched graduate plan I have ever seen. The authors have mapped out the entire city and found some very good nuggets from their commuter profiling.

Not the solution in isolation by a long way but a very useful piece of work in an area that does not get enough attention given the prevailing densities over the vast bulk of Dublin.
This plan should be looked at in great detail by whoever acquires Dublin Bus.
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby soulsearcher » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:43 pm

Bago wrote:Greek.


Quote from his CV:

Half Greek, half German and raised in Germany's industrial heartland, the Ruhr-Valley Region.

Sounds more German to me
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Re: Visionary Public Transport System for Dublin

Postby DouglasHyde » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:50 am

ac1976 wrote:That's a ridiculous thing to say, it's about time the BRT system is properly debated.
Dublin is a perfect city for BRT as illustrated in the maps on this thread.
What is missing is the investment and commitment, the main problem is the vested interests (and I mean this has to be delivered by the RPA or similar agency NOT Dublin Bus)

Metro North will cost Billions, and serve only a few bits of Dublin.
BRT system for the entire city would cost less and serve everybody in the City.
Having a Public Transport System that is efficient comfortable and up to European City standards while connecting the whole city together is the ONLY way to get people to shift from cars. Its simply not possable to do this withough buses.

Your posts entertaining fantasy.
Author non Dublin. Explains all.
No use serving everybody if they won't use it.
Car drivers will not use buses.
BRT in Dublin streetscape, fantasy tosh.
Will not happen.
End of.
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