Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby publicrealm » Sat May 22, 2010 11:06 pm

Sorry if there is a more appropriate thread for this.

I have noticed many mature trees being removed in the area of Palmerston Road, Rathmines over the past while. I always assumed it had to do with public safety (or, more probably, fear of claims) but it seems to have accellerated recently.

Three lovely mature trees have just been removed from Merton Road, another at the junction of Merton with Temple Gardens and two more nearby on Palmerston Road?

I know that a big branch came off the Temple Gardens one in a recent storm - so maybe that was unsafe, and I noted that one of those knocked in the past day or so (on Merton Road) has a hollow section in its centre (presumably a bad thing?) - but can think of no reason for butchering the others - apart from roots lifting the footpaths.

(If roots lifting the footpaths is considered reason to remove such beautiful trees then dozens more may be in danger.:()

Anybody know what is going on here?

(I took photos of all trees (ex trees) but for some reason I cannot upload them - even though they are below the appropriate size limits?)
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby kinsella » Sun May 23, 2010 5:44 am

publicrealm wrote:Sorry if there is a more appropriate thread for this.

I have noticed many mature trees being removed in the area of Palmerston Road, Rathmines over the past while. I always assumed it had to do with public safety (or, more probably, fear of claims) but it seems to have accellerated recently.

Three lovely mature trees have just been removed from Merton Road, another at the junction of Merton with Temple Gardens and two more nearby on Palmerston Road?

I know that a big branch came off the Temple Gardens one in a recent storm - so maybe that was unsafe, and I noted that one of those knocked in the past day or so (on Merton Road) has a hollow section in its centre (presumably a bad thing?) - but can think of no reason for butchering the others - apart from roots lifting the footpaths.

(If roots lifting the footpaths is considered reason to remove such beautiful trees then dozens more may be in danger.:()

Anybody know what is going on here?

(I took photos of all trees (ex trees) but for some reason I cannot upload them - even though they are below the appropriate size limits?)


Fingers crossed that is the reason.....(and somebody notices some cracks appearing on College Green). ;)
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Peter Fitz » Sun May 23, 2010 1:24 pm

Presume that is the reason, pity they wouldn't take out some trees elsewhere!
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby fergalr » Sun May 23, 2010 8:05 pm

I used to have relations living in Temple Gdns. Those trees are monuments. Big, beautiful giants.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby publicrealm » Mon May 31, 2010 2:14 pm

fergalr wrote:I used to have relations living in Temple Gdns. Those trees are monuments. Big, beautiful giants.


Yes Fergair - they are magnificent - nothing like the College Green scenario - these trees form part of one of the definitive leafy suburbs.

Finally managed to get the pictures to upload - hopefully they give some idea of the context.

The first three pics are Merton Road, fourth pic i Palmerston Gardens and the last two Palmerston Road. All within 100-150 metres.

The little white dog in pic no 1 is mine - mourning the loss of two of 'his' trees - (caught between two stools as it were).

Reminds me of Dogmatix.
Attachments
Merton Road  Hollow Core.GIF
Merton Road Hollow Core.GIF (43.69 KiB) Viewed 3946 times
Third Merton Road Victim.GIF
Third Merton Road Victim.GIF (102.56 KiB) Viewed 3941 times
Temple Gardens.GIF
Temple Gardens.GIF (107.59 KiB) Viewed 3946 times
Palmerston Road.GIF
Palmerston Road.GIF (105.7 KiB) Viewed 3944 times
Palmerston Road 2.GIF
Palmerston Road 2.GIF (88.12 KiB) Viewed 3945 times
2 Merton Road Victims.GIF
2 Merton Road Victims.GIF (99.22 KiB) Viewed 3949 times
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby David Murray » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:12 pm

I mentioned this in a recent thread regarding an enclosed square in Smithfield. Trees age and become overmature. When trees become overmature in an urban context they can become unsafe and bits start to fall from them. Overmature trees can usually be identified by 'stag horning' which is the term for the die back at the tips of branches. With care and judicious pruning overmature trees can live for many years more (as evidenced by the two large trees behind the campinile in Trinity College), but its expensive, and usually only considered in public parks due to the space available. Street trees, even the Lime and Horse Chestnut in and around Palmerston Park, live shorter lives than parkland trees due to the pressures that they are under. 150 years would be a good innings. Parks Departments operate a tree management system in more mature areas which generally runs along the lines of incremental replacement rather than waiting for large portions of trees to reach overmaturity and die at the same time, which can have a significantly greater visual impact on streetscape, allees or avenues.

Based on this, and the life span of the trees, I think you can expect to see many more of the trees planted in Victorian Streets being incrementally removed and replaced over the next few years. Se Si.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:52 pm

I've no doubt that these trees are past their best in a constrained urban setting and agree that their removal is probably necessary at this point. However, I disagree with this notion of replacing a single batch of trees on an incremental basis when those originally planted were clearly intended to impressively line the street and age in tandem with one another.

This methodology, regularly employed in a half arsed manner, will only ensure that the impressive vistas created by a run of mature trees aging in tandem will be lost to the city as the originals are gradually removed, and haphazard tree planting takes its place.

The only option in such cases, is to remove all trees lining a street in a single effort and replace with reasonably substantial juvenile specimens, that will in just a 15-20 year time frame significantly enhance the streetscape once again, and ensure future generations can marvel at the gravitas that only a run of mature trees can lend a streetscape.

I hope we can do a little better than this.

http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=10325&stc=1&d=1275311030
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Bago » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:03 pm

Could they be pollarded?
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Frank Taylor » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:29 pm

Publicrealm: you need to contact DCC parks dept. Also consult what is in the area plan for Rathmines. A couple of these trees fell down in the last few years and they're pretty big and there isn't a lot of room for them to fall on Palmerston Road. It is really sad to see them go and everyone loves old Horse Chestnuts but time marches on.

Also try contacting the South East Area Committee of DCC for political representation for this road.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Service charge » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:47 am

Two trees recently got the chop on Dartmouth Road, just off the east end of the square. Funny that they disappeared after one of the houses was renovated and occupied.

Someone putting a call into the council because the sun wasn't shining?
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby wearnicehats » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:29 pm

Service charge wrote:Two trees recently got the chop on Dartmouth Road, just off the east end of the square. Funny that they disappeared after one of the houses was renovated and occupied.

Someone putting a call into the council because the sun wasn't shining?


were these trees in someone's demise? - if so, and if there isn't a protection order on them it isn't against the law to cut down a tree in your garden you know. I do know that several trees on dartmouth square were considered dangerous and also the canopy cover was actually causing future growth to be stunted due to light levels
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Service charge » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:40 pm

'Demise'? How victorian are you!

They were on the public road.

The only apparent difference with the trees felled and the other trees on the road was that someone spent a million or two renovating the house close by. As soon as they moved in the trees quickly disappeared after 100 odd years.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby David Murray » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:29 pm

Hmm. Lets be rational about this. The City Parks Department are not going to cut down trees which could be considered to be part of the overall character of a beautiful victorian square for no reason. While I may agree with the earlier points regarding the size and weediness of the replacement trees (which incidentally grow and become established quicker than semi-mature trees), I dont think that the Parks Department are that accommodating to allow for mature street trees to be cut down just because a nearby renovated house doesnt want them overshadowing their living room.

It may just have to be faced that the trees in this area are starting to reach the end of their lives. All trees die. Street tree management doesnt allow for the slow receeding of branches and suckering growth seen on ancient oak trees in parklands and demesnes. It perhaps might be better to elicit a response from the Parks Department via a Councillor as to the status of these trees, and others in the surrounding area, rather than murkily implying that they are being cut down to accommodate a single homeowner.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby GregF » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:03 pm

Excellent butchery job ... the cheap sapling replacements are so apt!
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Bago » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:03 pm

I noticed alot of streets and roads in France last month lined with plane trees that had been severely pruned (through neccessity) mantaining the continuity of tree sizes . No reason why the corporation couldn't do this here and keep a unified streetscape. As usual no thought put into anything.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby soulsearcher » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:41 pm

Reported in Irish Times today:

Residents criticise council for felling trees without notice

DUBLIN CITY Council has been criticised for felling trees in Synge Street without notifying residents in advance or explaining why it was being done.


Michael McLoughlin, managing director of Penguin Ireland, said one of his fellow residents was “so upset by what’s happening that she’s been in tears all morning”.

As the first of eight elms was felled, Mr McLoughlin contacted the Garda and the council’s public relations office to complain. The Garda said they could do nothing.

A council official said the elms, thought to be 30 years old, were being felled because of complaints that their roots were damaging basements.

“It turned out that one resident complained, and that was it”, Mr McLoughlin said. “The only notice we got said the trees would be pruned. There was no mention of felling.” The official who visited the site explained that the elms had deep spreading roots and, if they were not felled, the problem would get worse.

Mr McLoughlin asked about replacement trees, but the official said the earliest they could be planted would be early 2012.

A council spokeswoman confirmed there were “complaints” and the matter was mentioned at the council’s area committee on April 12th and agreed by councillors. In such circumstances, residents “don’t have to be notified”, she said.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Mike Kavanagh » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:16 am

Unfortunately a lot of the concerns expressed for the fate of trees here and elsewhere is reactive.
I suggest that all local councillors in this case (and any of the other places where the choppers appear) be contacted by as quickly as possible by as many locals as possible and made aware that there will be a sustained outcry from a lot of angry people, with consequent vote loss potental, if the (often) petty issues of a few constituents or party contributors are entertained.

Roots in the basement - Hmmmm! Is it the Little Shop of Horrors we have here!
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:51 pm

[quote="Irish Times"]
As the first of eight elms was felled, Mr McLoughlin contacted the Garda and the council’]

I went to school on Synge Street, they weren't Elms at all, but London Planes in their prime. Fuckin' eejits. The trees really enhanced middle Synge Street as they do Harrington Street, and were a defining feature of this little pocket of the city. Needless destruction.

Image
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby David Murray » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:06 pm

Its not the larger trees on the southern section of the street, but rather the smaller ones seen to the top of your photograph. The photograph accompanying the article on the IT website shows them more clearly. They are elms. These days they would have been planted with root protectors to stop the roots from impacting on the basements.

On the other side of this arguement do elm trees (taking into account their mature size of 30m+) not seem to be a bit big for a street of this width? Would hornbeam or something of similar size and spread not be more suited. On a wider issue I would have more problems with what I consider to be innapropriate street tree planting in the city as whole which is what leads to this happening at a stage that the trees are nearing maturity and are contributing to the streetscape. I have noted in many instances undersized trees (hornbeam/birch) along large streets, or trees with potential to grow enormous (lime) in narrow streets.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:53 pm

David Murray wrote:Its not the larger trees on the southern section of the street, but rather the smaller ones seen to the top of your photograph. The photograph accompanying the article on the IT website shows them more clearly. They are elms. These days they would have been planted with root protectors to stop the roots from impacting on the basements.


ah I see :o good! Surely those Elm's weren't 30 years old though?? Hard to imagine their roots impacting on basements at this point.

Hornbeams make for a nice street tree alright, but their tendancy to bolt in later years doesn't do them any favours.

David Murray wrote:On a wider issue I would have more problems with what I consider to be innapropriate street tree planting in the city as whole which is what leads to this happening at a stage that the trees are nearing maturity and are contributing to the streetscape. I have noted in many instances undersized trees (hornbeam/birch) along large streets, or trees with potential to grow enormous (lime) in narrow streets.


Couldn't agree more, there is little consistency or foresight. Given the positive impact an appropriate specimens can have on a streetscape it really deserves more planning than just throwing in whatever is available to them. In my own development, all gardens were planted with Lime's, albeit very nice specimens, just 1.5m from front windows.
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby aj » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:21 pm

i see a few in eglinton road in donnybrook have also got the chop...
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby publicrealm » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:51 pm

aj wrote:i see a few in eglinton road in donnybrook have also got the chop...


Maybe I am hopelessly desiccated and cynical - but I cannot help wondering if there is money in removing 'problem' trees and if the apparent increase in removals may be connected with the recession?

Are there reasonable checks and balances involved - or are some contractors allowed fairly free reign by an (overstretched! :rolleyes:) planning authority?
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Re: Mature Tree Destruction by DCC

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:20 pm

The Irish Times - Thursday, August 5, 2010

Complaints halt felling of trees on Synge Street
FIONA GARTLAND

FOUR ELM trees in inner-city Dublin have been given a temporary reprieve by Dublin City Council after local residents prevented their felling.

The 30-year-old trees were in a group of eight elms on Synge Street that the council began to fell last week.

Four were cut down before the council agreed to stop its work after local residents complained.

Though the company contracted to carry out the work had informed local residents that trees in the locality would be pruned, it had not warned them some would be removed.

The council told residents one of the trees appeared to be impacting the basement wall of one residence and also that the footpath had been repaired at a number of locations due to the tree roots raising the footpath and causing a trip hazard.

Given the vigorous growing habits of the species, it was considered prudent to have the trees removed and replaced, where possible, with a more suitable species, the council said.

However, in a statement issued yesterday, the council said the four trees would not be removed immediately.

It said following a meeting yesterday between the council and local residents, it was agreed no further felling would be carried out on the remaining four elm trees until a replacement planting plan had been agreed with residents in the area
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