Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby tomtdowling » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:51 pm

jimg wrote:In conclusion, Zürich started as car choked city in 1970 much as Dublin did in 1985 with its first commuter electrified rail line. 20 years later they finished their inter-connector and expanded the tram system. Then they rolled out a single ticketing brand for the whole system. Now it has a world class system. There is no reason why Dublin couldn't do the same - it isn't rocket science. This makes me feel optimistic. But then I read about this Luas line F bullshit (and unfortunately most of the RPA's recent proposals) and I feel very pessimistic. This is NOT the way to spend money developing a public transport system.


Thanks for your very insightful post into Zurich v Dublin and public transport. I think Dublin will get there too it just takes so much longer here. Irish Rail have this inter connector plan hatching for so long there is no way they are going to alter it now. I'm not an expert but I'm sure your right the underground section would make more sense through suburban Lucan. But as we here quite often in Dublin these days we are where we are, RPA are pushing ahead with Lucan luas, I'm living here so I can say it is not going to be too disruptive the route that's planned. Having attended the meeting recently in Ballyfermot residents have bigger issues with it there.

It just been going on so long I'm hoping we get a decent public transport service in the next 5-6 years. :confused:
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby gunter » Wed May 26, 2010 11:57 pm

I understand that the latest Luas-meet-the-people event didn't go too well in Ballyfermot last night.

The residents of Kylemore Road are almost unanimously against the proposed routing, on the reasonable grounds that it would take out the only tree-lined avenue in Ballyfermot and it would also interfere with the slip roads that make living on this major traffic artery bearable.

Is it not time to reconsider the rambling, penny-pinching, idea of trying to join the proposed Lucan Luas with the existing Red Line at the junction of the Naas Road and the Grand Canal, when the logical route is to continue straight on down Lower Ballyfermot, Sarsfield Road, Con Colbert Road, St. John's Road West to Heuston.

Taking a detour up Kylemore Road [or the option of trying to join up with the future Dart Underground station at the Inchicore Works] just creates more problems that it's worth and the junction required to make the Luas connection at the Black Horse bridge would impact very negatively on the canal lock here and further congest the existing bottleneck junction where the Red Line swings off the foot of the Naas Road onto the Canal/Davitt Road.

Continuing on straight not only serves a new hinterland not currently served by trams in Lower Ballyfermot and North Inchicore, it would also serve the important cultural/tourist destinations in Kilmainham, and growing urban hub at the the South Circular Road, that the Dart Underground will bypass.

The logical thing is to make the Lucan line become the existing Red Line at Heuston [where passengers can interchange with Dart] and let the existing Red Line to James St. continue down Thomas St to College Green like it always wanted to do in the first place.

Steeven's Lane can function as the link between the two arterial lines and allow alternate trams on each route to have alternate destinations.

Or would that just be too straight forwatd.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby missarchi » Thu May 27, 2010 4:37 am

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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby ac1976 » Thu May 27, 2010 8:01 am

Gunter that makes perfect sense to me.
The link on Steeven's lane would also allow you to change the heuston - connolly mini service to stephens green or trinity to connolly via heuston (eventually). Not the most obvious route but it would link a lot of stuff together and I'm guessing it would be very popular (with tourists)

I have a feeling that this is what will happen. The real problem is that not enough weighting was put on having a line that is "fast" or at least not very slow compared to the bus. making the route more direct is the only answer to this and the N4 would certainly be the fastest possible route as well as opening up Luas services to Kilmainham Jail, War memorial Gardens, Inchicore Nth/Sarsfield Rd, Lower Ballyfermot, IMMA Kilmainham/Islandbridge. All would be great additions to the network, whereas using the red line along the canal bypasses all of this and adds a good 10-15 mins to the journey length.
The cost/benefit doesn't work if the line is so slow anyway.

Now the tricky bit is how the RPA can go back on their decision? Ministerial orders perhaps?
They have certainly been stepping up the consultations recently and have actually allowed the topics to go in the direction you are suggesting. Maybe the RPA are actually a sensible lot, something we are not used to in this country? Have the realized the flaws in their plans and instead of hiding them are actually dealing with them? Somebody get them a blue-peter badge!
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby tomtdowling » Thu May 27, 2010 11:58 pm

gunter wrote:I understand that the latest Luas-meet-the-people event didn't go too well in Ballyfermot last night.

The residents of Kylemore Road are almost unanimously against the proposed routing, on the reasonable grounds that it would take out the only tree-lined avenue in Ballyfermot and it would also interfere with the slip roads that make living on this major traffic artery bearable.

Is it not time to reconsider the rambling, penny-pinching, idea of trying to join the proposed Lucan Luas with the existing Red Line at the junction of the Naas Road and the Grand Canal, when the logical route is to continue straight on down Lower Ballyfermot, Sarsfield Road, Con Colbert Road, St. John's Road West to Heuston.

Taking a detour up Kylemore Road [or the option of trying to join up with the future Dart Underground station at the Inchicore Works] just creates more problems that it's worth and the junction required to make the Luas connection at the Black Horse bridge would impact very negatively on the canal lock here and further congest the existing bottleneck junction where the Red Line swings off the foot of the Naas Road onto the Canal/Davitt Road.

Continuing on straight not only serves a new hinterland not currently served by trams in Lower Ballyfermot and North Inchicore, it would also serve the important cultural/tourist destinations in Kilmainham, and growing urban hub at the the South Circular Road, that the Dart Underground will bypass.

The logical thing is to make the Lucan line become the existing Red Line at Heuston [where passengers can interchange with Dart] and let the existing Red Line to James St. continue down Thomas St to College Green like it always wanted to do in the first place.

Steeven's Lane can function as the link between the two arterial lines and allow alternate trams on each route to have alternate destinations.

Or would that just be too straight forwatd.


I did not go to the one last night, but was at the previous meeting. Resident were just opposed to Luas full stop. Many residents told RPA people put it down the N4 we don't want it......silly people. I don't thing it has anything to do with taking out trees.

I agree your option down Con Colbert make more sense to Lucan commuters.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby tomtdowling » Fri May 28, 2010 12:02 am

ac1976 wrote:Gunter that makes perfect sense to me.
The link on Steeven's lane would also allow you to change the heuston - connolly mini service to stephens green or trinity to connolly via heuston (eventually). Not the most obvious route but it would link a lot of stuff together and I'm guessing it would be very popular (with tourists)

I have a feeling that this is what will happen. The real problem is that not enough weighting was put on having a line that is "fast" or at least not very slow compared to the bus. making the route more direct is the only answer to this and the N4 would certainly be the fastest possible route as well as opening up Luas services to Kilmainham Jail, War memorial Gardens, Inchicore Nth/Sarsfield Rd, Lower Ballyfermot, IMMA Kilmainham/Islandbridge. All would be great additions to the network, whereas using the red line along the canal bypasses all of this and adds a good 10-15 mins to the journey length.
The cost/benefit doesn't work if the line is so slow anyway.

Now the tricky bit is how the RPA can go back on their decision? Ministerial orders perhaps?
They have certainly been stepping up the consultations recently and have actually allowed the topics to go in the direction you are suggesting. Maybe the RPA are actually a sensible lot, something we are not used to in this country? Have the realized the flaws in their plans and instead of hiding them are actually dealing with them? Somebody get them a blue-peter badge!


Next meeting in Lucan June 2nd
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby Pete » Fri May 28, 2010 2:05 pm

gunter wrote:Is it not time to reconsider the rambling, penny-pinching, idea of trying to join the proposed Lucan Luas with the existing Red Line at the junction of the Naas Road and the Grand Canal, when the logical route is to continue straight on down Lower Ballyfermot, Sarsfield Road, Con Colbert Road, St. John's Road West to Heuston.

Taking a detour up Kylemore Road [or the option of trying to join up with the future Dart Underground station at the Inchicore Works] just creates more problems that it's worth and the junction required to make the Luas connection at the Black Horse bridge would impact very negatively on the canal lock here and further congest the existing bottleneck junction where the Red Line swings off the foot of the Naas Road onto the Canal/Davitt Road.

Continuing on straight not only serves a new hinterland not currently served by trams in Lower Ballyfermot and North Inchicore, it would also serve the important cultural/tourist destinations in Kilmainham, and growing urban hub at the the South Circular Road, that the Dart Underground will bypass.

The logical thing is to make the Lucan line become the existing Red Line at Heuston [where passengers can interchange with Dart] and let the existing Red Line to James St. continue down Thomas St to College Green like it always wanted to do in the first place.


I like the suggestion gunter, but I think Lucan would be better served by a heavier rial system, trams are meant for city centre and not long distances. I think the most sensible thing to do would be to extend Luas Red Line from Heuston Station (or possibly new Inchicore Station but that would have to be post IC) along the route you suggested (James St to College Green), but all the way to Ringsend/Irishtown.

This would create an east-west axis in the city centre on the south side, mirroring that on the north side. Im sure (although have no figures to back this up) would be a much more feasible option then current Lucan Luas proposals because it serves a part of the city centre with limited public transport and links with existing Red line and Dart at Heuston and Pearse Street and eventually Green line.

If this was built along with Luas BX (Green line extension as far as O'Connell Street only with possible extension to Broombridge in the future), it would make Dublin a much more accessible city. Im sure these two lines (from Heuston to Ringsend and BX) could have been built for not too much more than the cost of the pointless Citywest and Cherrywood extensions and would be much more viable

Perhaps at some stage in the future (if it is needed) a new heavy rail line could be built from Inchicore (again post IC), along the N4 to Lucan and onto Leixlip and linking with Maynooth line.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby PVC King » Fri May 28, 2010 2:53 pm

I like the suggestion gunter, but I think Lucan would be better served by a heavier rial system, trams are meant for city centre and not long distances. I think the most sensible thing to do would be to extend Luas Red Line from Heuston Station (or possibly new Inchicore Station but that would have to be post IC) along the route you suggested (James St to College Green), but all the way to Ringsend/Irishtown.

This would create an east-west axis in the city centre on the south side, mirroring that on the north side. Im sure (although have no figures to back this up) would be a much more feasible option then current Lucan Luas proposals because it serves a part of the city centre with limited public transport and links with existing Red line and Dart at Heuston and Pearse Street and eventually Green line.


The figure of eight that Dick Gleeson came up with in 2004 was not much different and probably makes as much sense now as it did then. I think you need to look at JIMG's post on Zurich; trams are best in the CC and by building a line down James' St to College Green and Pearse St you give the feeling of continetal sophistication to areas that excluding Lord E St to College St really need it; the question is where do you cross the river to bring the Point into play as the perfect eight?


If this was built along with Luas BX (Green line extension as far as O'Connell Street only with possible extension to Broombridge in the future), it would make Dublin a much more accessible city. Im sure these two lines (from Heuston to Ringsend and BX) could have been built for not too much more than the cost of the pointless Citywest and Cherrywood extensions and would be much more viable


Certainly some form of North / South link required as part of the system; Ballymun/Finglas being the target and in that regard a complete review of the options that fit with the Maynooth line needs to be examined.

Resident were just opposed to Luas full stop.


They are absolutely right; the vast bulk of Ballyer is less than 1kms from the Adamstown stretch of the Dart network post interconnector as displayed in the map below.

http://www.multimap.com/maps/#map=53.35393,-6.3949|14|4&bd=useful_information&loc=IE:53.34528:-6.35889:14|ballyfermot|Ballyfermot,%20County%20Dublin

Perhaps at some stage in the future (if it is needed) a new heavy rail line could be built from Inchicore (again post IC), along the N4 to Lucan and onto Leixlip and linking with Maynooth line.


As you can see from the aerial shot below it is a very short distance from the North bank of the Liffey at Lucan to the Maynooth line; the land is undeveloped; build a spur a station and a pedestrian bridge and Lucan has Dart.


http://www.multimap.com/maps/#map=53.35516,-6.40297|14|4&bd=useful_information&loc=IE:53.35753:-6.44561:14|lucan|LUCAN,%20SOUTH%20DUBLIN

What Dublin needs is a light rail system focussed primarily on the City Centre and grade seperated branch lines serving towns such as Lucan. The one loser in this process would be Liffey Valley SC; but is it worth spending a €1bn on a meandering route just to plug in one shopping centre?
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