Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby tomtdowling » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:54 am

Just got this update from the RPA this morning.

Luas Lucan (Line F1) will run from Newcastle Road (Lucan) to Blackhorse, where it will link to the Red Line. This new Luas line will connect Lucan, Liffey Valley Town Centre and Ballyfermot to Dublin City Centre.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) will hold two open days to outline a proposed change in the route of Luas Lucan to provide for interchange with the new DART Underground station in Inchicore.

Tuesday 27th of April from 6pm - 9pm
VENUE: Liffey Gaels GAA Club, Lower Ballyfermot

Wednesday 28th of April from 6pm - 9pm
VENUE: Oblate Hall, Inchicore
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby PVC King » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:36 am

What a waste of public money; this project has no funding
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby Frank Taylor » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:04 pm

Would a shuttle bus to adamstown station be any good? The service from Adamstown will be DART like in future following the KRP and possible interconnector.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby tomtdowling » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:15 pm

Frank Taylor wrote:Would a shuttle bus to adamstown station be any good? The service from Adamstown will be DART like in future following the KRP and possible interconnector.


No I dont think that's an option, Lucan has grown massively in the 90's early 2000's its now a town of about 42,000 (almost the size of Waterford city) spread out with at least 20 new estates locked in between Clondalkin, Ballyfermot and Palmerstown.

The 25A bus currently serves most of these estates it takes up to 40mins to get from Superquinn wind it way through all before it finally leaves Lucan at Woodies on the N4 before starting to head for the city.

Why would people from these estates take 20- 30 mins to double back to Adamstown Train Station instead of heading towards town.

All these new estates have very young families and in the next 10 years we will see a rapid rise in the number of 15- 25 year old living there If were interested in breaking the car based transport a Luas service is the best way. Give them decent public transport before they decide to buy a car.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby PVC King » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:28 pm

Would a Luas from Adamstown serving Lucan not be best?

That way you get to Adamstown from Lucan in say 10-12 mins with a journey time St Green in little more once the interconnector is built. I am a great fan of the Luas Red line but regard it as two lines in terms of usage patterns 1. from Connolly to Fatima/Davitt Rd and another from Red Cow to Tallaght which mostly serves local demand. If you were logical about the red line you would have built it to Davitt Rod and a seperate line which would have connected Talafornia with the Kildare rail line; instead of the descent of the Naas Road and back to road space

Trams will always be most efficient for the last couple of kilometres as part of a multi-modal model; they are not designed for 8-12kms journeys on roads.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby tomtdowling » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:47 pm

PVC King wrote:Would a Luas from Adamstown serving Lucan not be best?

That way you get to Adamstown from Lucan in say 10-12 mins with a journey time St Green in little more once the interconnector is built. I am a great fan of the Luas Red line but regard it as two lines in terms of usage patterns 1. from Connolly to Fatima/Davitt Rd and another from Red Cow to Tallaght which mostly serves local demand. If you were logical about the red line you would have built it to Davitt Rod and a seperate line which would have connected Talafornia with the Kildare rail line; instead of the descent of the Naas Road and back to road space

Trams will always be most efficient for the last couple of kilometres as part of a multi-modal model; they are not designed for 8-12kms journeys on roads.


As mentioned in a previous thread there are too many Lucan estates spread out over a big area. Bus route currently serving takes an average of 40 mins to serve before heading to town. Adamstown Heuston is currently 16mins, there is no way we would (a) get a bus service that would bring people back to Adamstown station (not profitable). (b ) All of these estates are on the city side of Adamstown you would find it difficult to get people to spend say 20 mins travelling away from the city add in the waiting time for a train plus journey time to the city by train.

In the next 10 years the numbers of 15-25 is going to rocket in these estates a frequent Luas service is the best way we can keep them from using car transport as primary means. On top of this it provides vital public transport links with other areas on Red/Green line..
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby PVC King » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:23 am

Not saying it has to be Adamstown where any intersect would occur with suburban rail but clearly in light of more prudent government finances over the coming decade there is no way that the proposed Luas routing will be built for the following reasons.

1. The Route runs more or less parallel to the Red Line and Kildare line from the M50 in.
2. The City Centre section is mostly on street which has proven in the past both expensive and difficult to keep within budget.
3. The wisdom of extending Dart into the Metro West alignment as part of an intergrated network offering Dart fservices to Tallaght and Liffey Valley will be acknowledged as the best value option as finances improve; it will also ensure critical mass for the interconnector which could run trains at frequencies of 2mins.

I like most am totally in favour of a town of 42,000 people getting the best service possible however clearly that involves connection to suburban rail where journey times once electrified will be much shorter (roughly 1min per stop faster than diesel) and frequencies much higher due to the absence of the need to compete with cars for road space.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby cgcsb » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:28 pm

Although I like the idea of a luas service to Lucan here are my problems with it:

The proposed route is insufficiently sepereated from road. The lucan end of the line has too many zig zag sharp turns

The projected journey time from Lucan to Trinity is 50 mins, as opposed to the current Dublin bus service of 55mins, this doesn't really offer a good time saving.

It shares track with the red line, which is a recipe for disaster. At present the luas runs an advertised peak time frequency of 4 mins, but in reality, especially on a match days, some of them are within 2 mins of each other, the shared track (initially Blackhorse to The Point then Blackhorse to Fatima) will become very congested very quickly.

Almost all the proposed luas/metro/dart lines connect with every other metro/luas/dart line. However lucan luas line F terminates at trinity instead of tacking advantage of the nearby Pearse Station by continuing down Pearse st, connecting with both the DART lines there and going on to serve the south Docklands and ringsend/Irish town.

Also is terminating service in a place like college green really a good idea? Pedestrian movements are already a tight squeeze
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby jimg » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:11 pm

It's a very poor plan which reeks of political interference.

It provides little utility at an enormous cost.

From Kilmainham to College Green (what a stupid place to have a terminus - why not go a few hundred extra metres to Pearse or Tara?) it practically duplicates the Interconnector except it will run at half the speed and offer less than a fifth of the maximum passenger carrying capacity.

From Kimainham to Blackhorse it shares track with the Red line.

From Blackhorse out, it winds its way slowly through low-density suburban housing. This mode (on-street light rail) is completely unsuited to this purpose - it delivers nothing in terms of utility over buses, it requires huge and expensive capital investment, and is inflexible and wasteful - we have first hand experience of the demographics of suburban semi-detached development; after a "baby-boom" phase, lasting about 30 years, the populations in such areas always decline - look at the population stats for any semi-d estate built around Dublin in the 60s and 70s where schools, shops and other social amenities are currently closing due to lack of demand.

It almost deliberately avoids integration or synergy with the highest capacity heavy rail route in Ireland which it runs close to and crosses over (without offering an interchange).

Off-peak, buses will beat the journey time along this route. The journey time would be halved for most of it's catchment using feeder buses to DART 2 assuming the interconnector goes ahead.

This plan represents the worst of Dublin transport planning - zero useful integration, the smell of political interference, no appreciation of the strengths and weaknesses of different transport modes and a fixation with city-centre to suburb point-to-point journeys instead of creating a NETWORK of useful transport modes.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby PVC King » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:20 pm

A run down of the role that trams play in Zurich would illustrate exactly how useful they can be in the right types of place.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby jimg » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:34 pm

Indeed PVC King - while I strongly disagree with your pronouncements regarding finance and the markets, from what I can see, I think we would probably would find ourselves largely in agreement regarding the development of public transport in Dublin.

I believe Zürich offers a great model for public transport system and provides some extremely relevant lessons from which Dublin could learn. I've been meaning to write something about this subject for quite a while; doing so in a dedicated transport forum would probably make more sense but I may as well make a start here - I may re-use some of this in a post to such a forum.

It's a complex system with at least the following modes: inter-city and commuter heavy rail, trams, trolley-buses, buses, cog-railways, river/lake boats and even a cable car. These are operated by a whole bunch of different operators - mostly private but also some owned by the city - but are all branded under ZVV and a single ticketing system operates. Ticketing is very simple - you either buy a single journey ticket which covers the entire city zone (which includes many of the closer suburbs) or a day pass which offers unlimited travel for 24 hours. All the modes are barrier-less - you just walk-on - leading to great efficiencies in terms of people movement and simple station/stop design but obviously requiring active enforcement.

The "heavy lifting" in terms of moving huge numbers of passengers longer distances (5km or more) is done by electrified heavy rail (the S trains) - effectively the equivalent of Dublin's DART. There are some odd parallels in how this system developed; it started as a single lake-side commuter line running on existing rail tracks through what is known as the "gold coast" back in 1970. More commuter lines got added using existing heavy rail infrastructure but the system was always hampered by the the river/lake which divides the city until the completion in 1990 of an "inter-connector" tunnel which goes underground on the approach to the main station, travels under it (with underground stops), crosses under the river and links with existing heavy rail lines on the other side of the city. This opened the system up and there are now 10 or 20 "DART" lines (including one to the Airport) although not all are very frequent and there is much track sharing. They are now building a second heavy rail inter-connector. These trains include up to 12 double-decker cars - so you can imagine the carrying capacity of these. They are also quite fast - reaching speeds of 100km and sometimes more.

Complementing this high-capacity/high speed backbone, is the dense network of tram lines in the city itself. There are three major tram interchanges roughly forming a "triangle" across the city centre. The trams are all on-street, traveling through dense areas; some lines extend into the "suburbs" - but by suburb we are talking about areas with at least 3/4 story apartment blocks. To get back to the point of this thread: NONE go through areas of single family houses (and Zurich does have some sprawl). The trams are very frequent - averaging I would guess 4-10 minute frequencies depending on the time of day. Every tram line, if it travels anywhere near an S train station will have a stop at the station. There are lots of tram stops - I would guess about every 400m. People hop-on and off trams all the time even for very short journeys (for example the equivalent of traveling the length of O'Connell street). You rarely use a tram to travel long distances (greater than 3/4km).

Next in the hierarchy are trolley-buses (articulated "bendy" buses powered by overhead wires - sometimes sharing tram routes but often not). These generally offer axial routes that complement the somewhat radial nature of the tram routes. Obviously the capacity is less again than a tram.

Then you have buses - these generally service low density routes and the outer "village like" suburbs although some seem to effectively be proto-tram lines. As pointed out above, the big/dense suburbs/outer towns are served by S-lines (DARTS).

In addition you have the oddities: a couple of cog railways (more like a glorified lift but running at an angle - very low capacity), at least one cable car that I have used, a small gauge railway that goes up into one of the surrounding hills, and lake/river boats (which only run for half the year and are more popular with tourists than commuters).

My typical commute in the morning is: trolley-bus (if I am feeling very lazy) to the tram stop, a tram to the main station and the S21 (DART like) to where I work. All the modes are connected and like I said barrier-less and because monthly or yearly passes are very popular and great value so this type of journey is completely painless. Again to try to make this in someway relevant to the topic, absolutely nobody expects a dedicated tram line to be built from their front door to where they work; multi-modal travel is the norm.

Here is a selection of other random interesting aspects of the development of public transport in Zürich which have strange parallels with Dublin. Despite having a great tram system at the start of the 20th century, it was known as terrible city for public transport up to 30/40 years ago as they attempted to accommodate the private car as a mode for getting around the city; thankfully this futile effort was abandoned before causing too much damage but you can still notice some of the results (thankfully quite a bit away from the core of the city) like a motorway running on stilts over one of the rivers (reminiscent of the plan to build motorway over the canals in Dublin) and some unpleasant underpasses and the like. Regarding the metro debate in Dublin: in Zürich they held referendum in the 1980s on whether to raise taxes either to build a 2 line metro system or to build their inter-connector and overhaul/expand the tram system. The latter was chosen as it was much better value (the metro option would have resulted in an extra 2% income tax levy for 20 years or something like that) - there is nothing like having to pay for something to focus the mind on what offers the best value. However Switzerland is hardly a country - more like a collection of independent city states so they are used to locals paying for local infrastructure.

In conclusion, Zürich started as car choked city in 1970 much as Dublin did in 1985 with its first commuter electrified rail line. 20 years later they finished their inter-connector and expanded the tram system. Then they rolled out a single ticketing brand for the whole system. Now it has a world class system. There is no reason why Dublin couldn't do the same - it isn't rocket science. This makes me feel optimistic. But then I read about this Luas line F bullshit (and unfortunately most of the RPA's recent proposals) and I feel very pessimistic. This is NOT the way to spend money developing a public transport system.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby Pete » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:54 pm

I see they are currently attempting to re-route Luas Line F1 to include a stop at Inchicore to link to Dart Underground. Would it make more sense to bring a spur off Kildare rail line at Inchicore to include some, if not all of the stations proposed for line F1 (cherry Orchard, Liffey Valley, Lucan etc.) and extend this further west to Leixlip and onto Maynooth to from a loop for the Maynooth line. A luas serving the south inner city, creating a spur off existing Luas Red Line, from existing Fatima stop could following Line F1 proposed route with stops at Meade Street, Christchurch and Trinity. This could also extend down Pearse Street, providing link with Pearse Street station, with a stop at Grand Canal Dock and terminating at Rinsend/Irishtown. Depot and turnback facilities could be provided here more efficiently then at Trinity College as currently proposed.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby Pete » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:25 pm

I was thinking further about my route above. Instead of terminating at Irishtown, the line could extend over the Liffey to connect with the existing Red Line at the stop at the Point. This would create a loop with two east-west/west-east luas lines running through the city centre, one on each side of the river. There would be one north-south/south-north route, that being existing Green Line with Line B1 (currently under construction) and proposed extension Line BXD (if built). The north-south axis would run from Brides Glen (and eventually Bray if Line B2 was built) to Broombridge (assuming Line BXD is built) The east-west and north-south routes would intersect at Trinity College and O'Connell Street.

Regarding east-west axis, there would be two routes along the looped Red Line, serving all current Red line stops plus those proposed by Line F1 (Christchurch, Trinity College) plus my proposed stops (Pearse Street, Grand Canal Dock, Irishtown). Two trams, both trams starting at Tallaght but taking different tracks at Fatima, and passing each other at some point along the way, could serve all the stops mentioned. This would allow for greater flexibility for commuters, with one tram serving the entire city centre. The main stops would be as follows;

Tram 1
Tallaght - Fatima - Trinity College - Irishtown - The Point - Abbey Street - Heuston Station - Fatima - Tallaght

Tram 2
Tallaght - Fatima - Heuston Station - Abbey Street - The Point - Irishtown - Trinity College - Fatima - Tallaght

The part of my suggestion from Fatima to Trinity has already been considered under Line F1, meaning only section from Trinity to the Point would have to be designed. This would still be cheaper and more efficient then building Luas Line F1 all the way out to Lucan. Would it still be more effective to accommodate the other stops on Line F1 (Ballyfermot, Cherry Orchard, Liffey Valley, Lucan, etc.) with a Dart extension from Inchicore to Maynooth as I already suggested?
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:15 pm

Pete wrote:I see they are currently attempting to re-route Luas Line F1 to include a stop at Inchicore to link to Dart Underground.


There was a LUAS leaflet-drop last week, is that what was on it?

Someone here chucked it in the bin :mad:

The way I understood it, F1 turned south onto Kylemore Rd. from Ballyfermot and then east at Bluebell to travel down the canal to join up with the Red line at the Black Horse.

Are they [the RPA?] talking about the Inchicore option again? I'd have expected to have heard the fireworks go off by now if there was talk of dragging Inchicore into the twenty first century ;)
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby Pete » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:40 pm

Gunter, they are suggesting including a stop at Inchicore on Luas Line F, there is an open day today and tomorrow if you are interested. go to RPA website or click the following link for more info http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/luas_lucan/line_and_stop_design/Pages/default.aspx
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:01 pm

Pete, I don't like to go outside and that report is sixty pages . . . with no pictures. Could you not just tell me where the stop in Inchicore is supposed to be?
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby ac1976 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:08 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0427/1224269158595.html
[ATTACH]10285[/ATTACH]

It looks like such a tiny change but providing a proper interchange with DART is really a major change for this Line.
The strange thing is the DART part is from inchicore to city, which is more suitable for Luas (light rail providing more stops)
And the Luas part is out to Lucan which isn't really suitable as its not fast enough and has limited capacity.
Should be DART to Lucan and Luas around the canals and inner burbs.



[ATTACH]10286[/ATTACH]
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Luas Lucan - A4 public meeting poster-flyer 0410_Page_2.jpg
Luas Lucan - A4 public meeting poster-flyer 0410_Page_2.jpg (103.65 KiB) Viewed 3749 times
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1224269158595_1.jpg.jpg (18.59 KiB) Viewed 3747 times
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby alonso » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:16 pm

ac1976 wrote:It looks like such a tiny change but providing a proper interchange with DART is really a major change for this Line.
The strange thing is the DART part is from inchicore to city, which is more suitable for Luas (light rail providing more stops)
And the Luas part is out to Lucan which isn't really suitable as its not fast enough and has limited capacity.
Should be DART to Lucan and Luas around the canals and inner burbs.
]


A bit unfair. The DART is not from "Inchicore to the city". This is the Interconnector, finally arriving 40 years after proposed and will have a massive positive impact on transport in Dublin and serves South Lucan btw.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby baileys3 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:19 pm

ac1976 wrote:

Should be DART to Lucan and Luas around the canals and inner burbs.





I agree with the logic of this but let's not forget that there are two train lines currently running either side of Lucan, less than 5km apart..

Building a LUAS/DART to Lucan should be at the bottom of the list of priorities. Planning rail/tram links for places like Finglas should be higher up on the list.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby tomtdowling » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:29 am

baileys3 wrote:I agree with the logic of this but let's not forget that there are two train lines currently running either side of Lucan, less than 5km apart..

Building a LUAS/DART to Lucan should be at the bottom of the list of priorities. Planning rail/tram links for places like Finglas should be higher up on the list.


I attended the meeting last night in Ballyfermot re the new changes to the route. As I'm sure most of you know by now, this is to bring the Luas line closer to the proposed Inchicore Dart station.

My own view is that is a sensible proposal. The information evening I have to say was very heated, a group of at least 20 residents including a political type (Sinn Fein or People before Profit) they do not want Luas going down want it coming down Kylemore Rd. Some we as far as to say we don't want Luas at all and to put it down the N4!.

baileys3: your comment about Maynooth line and Kildare Line a mere 5km apart. I have suggested before that it would be beneficial to link both lines between Adamstown & Leixlip, it open countryside, and would provide greater connectivity to the city. Could prove a vital link way into the future for a small cost now.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby Pete » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:11 pm

gunter wrote:Pete, I don't like to go outside and that report is sixty pages . . . with no pictures. Could you not just tell me where the stop in Inchicore is supposed to be?


Gunter, new Dart station will be located on existing Iarnrod Eireann land at Inchicore where Dart Underground comes above ground. I take it new Luas stop will be located here, see ac1976 post above. No need to read any sixty page reports.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby cgcsb » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:45 pm

alonso wrote:The DART is not from "Inchicore to the city".


what?
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby Morlan » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:37 pm

alonso wrote:The DART is not from "Inchicore to the city".

cgcsb wrote:what?


It´s a DART from Hazelhatch to Balbriggan/Howth via Inchicore and the city.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby PVC King » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:21 am

If the purpose was to get commuters to the City Centre and or connect them to the rail network; wouldn't building a spur rail line from the Maynooth line not be best?

http://www.multimap.com/maps/#map=53.35516,-6.40297|14|4&bd=useful_information&loc=IE:53.35753:-6.44561:14|lucan|LUCAN,%20SOUTH%20DUBLIN

If a station were built on the North Bank and a pedestrian bridge from Main Street there is a mile or so through open country between the north bank and the Maynooth line. No doubt the land-take costs could be offset by the capital contributions towards the stations the developers would need to make. Why anyone would want to build a meandering tram line this far out is beyond me.
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Re: Luas Line F1 (Lucan)

Postby cgcsb » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:55 pm

Morlan wrote:It´s a DART from Hazelhatch to Balbriggan/Howth via Inchicore and the city.


I'm aware of that, I just thought it was a rather odd statement to make.
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