Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:47 pm

johnglas wrote:God, guys, you're hard, you're hard...


Indeed.

While I'm not a fan of the resulting images, it should be remembered that it was an ideas competition, as stated upfront on the Open Office website. As such, I thought there was some interesting food for thought in there.

Since the brief was concerned with generating discussion rather than a finished product we chose to develop a polemic which addresses not only Henrietta Street but also the historic city centre as a whole.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby BTH » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:27 pm

Well at least Morlan was being tongue in cheek - I think, since the "contemporary apartment block" he mentions is the one on the corner of Henrietta St. we've all had a good moan about already - nothing to do with OpenOffice's competition entry. Ever hear of "constructive criticism" spoil_sport? ;-)

I actually think the idea of a series of utilitarian"energy towers" interspersed throughout the historic city is very provocative indeed - Just what an "ideas" competition is all about really...
BTH
Member
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Galway

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby spoil_sport » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:38 pm

Contrary to popular belief, there is such a thing as a bad idea, and the Open Office Entry was just that. Architectural ideas CANNOT be based entirely on concerns of sustainability, because, well, then you get rediculous things like that proposed by Open Office. An architectural proposal, or idea should be able to stand on its own merits, without all the quasai OMA b.s.
spoil_sport
Member
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:07 pm

hutton wrote:Commission this boy up asap :)


See I disagree - whereas the extension to one side does upset the symmetry, I think that the second version makes the mansion look like an exercise in facadism
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5427
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:12 pm

spoil_sport wrote:Contrary to popular belief, there is such a thing as a bad idea, and the Open Office Entry was just that. Architectural ideas CANNOT be based entirely on concerns of sustainability, because, well, then you get rediculous things like that proposed by Open Office. An architectural proposal, or idea should be able to stand on its own merits, without all the quasai OMA b.s.


Well maybe I should have bolded this phrase: 'Since the brief was concerned with generating discussion'? Whatever the merits of the project, it's really the only one that has stimulated any debate on here so far.

Also, not that I necessarily agree with your assessment of the idea, but it should be remembered that even bad ideas can be useful starting points for a debate. I know, in my case, that occasionally I've posted stuff on here to get people's debating juices flowing.

On topic- one infill building in a Georgian area I've always quite liked is the medical centre on the west side of Fitzwilliam Street Lower (opposite the ESBHQ, if I recall correctly)- a two storey building, partly gable-fronted, built of a pinkish brick. It's not infill in the sense of filling a gap in a terrace, but it does fill in a site in a Georgian area.

I also agree with the Concern building posted by DJM above- far better than the muck it replaced.

*** *** ***

Paul- I agree, but I think that'd be largely solved by a setback as suggested by Peter.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby spoil_sport » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:21 pm

Well, actually there was a whole thread dedicated to this Henrietta St competition, which i don't think even mentioned this project.
I don't like the project or the idea, and it annoys me that they saw it fit to wrap it in so much superfluous bullshit..... If that's the resoponse they were aiming to provoke, then, well done, success, but surley there should be more to it than that?
I pass the concern building regularly, can't say it ever did anything for me, but then I don't remember what was there before it. Still the projections feel somewhat arbritary, lacking a level of refinement.
(I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, I will attempt make some positive posts in due course)
spoil_sport
Member
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby shaun » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:26 pm

Henrietta street must not be altered, that's just the beauty of this street, it's complete.

The state of the houses is totally derelict and and most still look like they are tenements but that's what Dublin Georgian is all about.

Just around the corner at the back of Henrietta street on a curving lane is this great example of Dublin flats.
Attachments
dublin dec 08 102.JPG
dublin dec 08 102.JPG (32.39 KiB) Viewed 2603 times
dublin dec 08 096.JPG
dublin dec 08 096.JPG (26.88 KiB) Viewed 2604 times
shaun
Member
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:30 pm
Location: Antwerp

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby missarchi » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:13 pm

I think your missing the point completely with the open office proposal...

I think they are trying to say that on average most people/businesses that live or own Georgian property are richer than the average joe...
This in turn relates to influence in polite people and power and spikes...
Which may suggest that some benefit from ungeorgian development..
If you look at the amount of mulher going around for heritage its quite a big slice...
There is no new hands on georgian to compete with, bricks have been designed out...
There are no rewards for good architecture or R&D for new georgian or paddy style...
which may make for biased heritage funding...

tax incentives for world class architecture??? or houses for everyone???
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby spoil_sport » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:47 pm

Look, I get it. My objection is, it's not an architectural proposal, architecture is about experience, not about what is written about it nor conjecture nor contrived graphs. This project is simply a statment, a cartoon of an idea, which is not backed up by sufficient architectural exploration. (Exploration of the "ungeorgian development" which is perhaps what they are getting at in a round about way.)
spoil_sport
Member
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby Global Citizen » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:19 am

It's a wind up. It has to be.
Global Citizen
Member
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am
Location: Global

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby bitasean » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:28 am

I know that I'm laying myself wide open here but as co-author of the proposal I must agree with spoil sport - it's not an architectural proposal - but then again no good polemic ever is.

Our intention was to comply with the brief of the competition - which for an Open Ideas competition is more about asking questions than supplying definite answers.

Anyone who reads the proposal as a set of plans to construct a 134 storey tower in Henrietta Street is missing the point. We simply ask what the future holds in store for buildings/city districts which place an ever increasing demand on their host city in terms of energy and space. To preserve them as is may prove economically and environmentally disastrous - to upgrade them may compromise the original artefact.

I appreciate the discussion - both positive and negative - it's why we entered the competition in the first place.
bitasean
Member
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:48 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby Smithfield Resi » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:35 pm

Protected structures are the decadent remnants of a wasteful past, surviving only at the expensive whim of a romantic bureaucracy whose primary objective should be to ensure the prosperity and efficiency of the city.


I don't even know where to begin with this ludicrous statement! But since you bring up prosperity, how do you propose to replace the €2b/yr in revenue brought into Ireland by tourists who visit, amongst other reasons, for the culture and heritage of Ireland which naturally includes the built environment?

Why do we continue to ask comtemporary interventions to respect a built heritage which show increasing disregard for the concerns of our society?


Speaking personally, one of my societal concerns is the exact reverse, why does society show so little regard for the built heritage?
Smithfield Resi
Member
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:03 am

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby Rory W » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:13 pm

Speaking of infilling on a Georgian street has anyone any images of what is currently going up on Harcourt Street in place of 'The plant Store' - just caught a glimpse of an image on the hording as I was passing the other day, looks fairly modern but surely if there ever was aplace in Dublin for pastice this was the place?
Rory W
Old Master
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Drogheda & Blackrock

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby jdivision » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:16 pm

It's an extension of the hotel, sorry no pics though
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby spoil_sport » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:44 pm

"I know that I'm laying myself wide open here but as co-author of the proposal I must agree with spoil sport - it's not an architectural proposal - but then again no good polemic ever is."

I have to say I find that to be a cop out. The issue of sustainability of "protected structures" or more broadly speaking existing urban fabric, is not a new one, and it something any responsible architect will grapel with when dealing with such a project. Which is why I find your project, whether it is litterally a "134 storey tower in Henrietta Street" or not, unhelpful, perhaps even less so if it is not meant literally. To say it is just about asking questions is too easy a stance on the matter, your pose a senario but you must also take some responsibility for the consequences.
spoil_sport
Member
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby Devin » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:40 am

Protected structures are the decadent remnants of a wasteful past, surviving only at the expensive whim of a romantic bureaucracy whose primary objective should be to ensure the prosperity and efficiency of the city.
The south Georgian area of Dublin is a model of high density development which has stood the test of time and is a highly sought after commercial location. Therefore the hundreds of "wasteful decadent" protected structures in this area are a model of sustainability.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby phil » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:32 pm

Sorry if the following seems a bit unclear, but what about various earlier examples of in-fill development? One that springs to mind is what I think is now a HSE building on North Great Georges Street. Looks to be from the early 1940s. Distinctly 'of its time' yet clearly attempting to respect its surroundings.

Of a very different era, but it might also be worth mentioning Stephen Court on St Stephen's Green? Further on, what about the likes of the Lisney Building and its neighbour (recently saw a photo of the latter in what looked to be a dark green, and it looked alot better than it does now)?
phil
Old Master
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:32 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:46 pm

Rory W wrote:Speaking of infilling on a Georgian street has anyone any images of what is currently going up on Harcourt Street in place of 'The plant Store' - just caught a glimpse of an image on the hording as I was passing the other day, looks fairly modern but surely if there ever was aplace in Dublin for pastice this was the place?


Ask and you shall receive!

Image

Given the row that took place over the two adjacent Georgians a few years back, this seems like a bit of a slap in the face to them, no?
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby BTH » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:38 pm

Wow. That looks.... mediocre. Please god the colour of the masonry in the render is a printing mistake. If it were brick or closer to the colour of brick it might just avoid being completely hideous...
BTH
Member
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Galway

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:54 pm

would have to agree with Rory that really a georgian facade should have gone in here, the glazed atrium on the corner is acceptable enough as it caps the terrace but this brash effort smashes its continuity & challenges its neighbours.
Peter Fitz
 

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby shaun » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:28 pm

Phil,

My guess is that you mean this building, I've always thought it fits in very well. Good example of appropriate infilling.
Attachments
dublin 1 sept 08 001.JPG
dublin 1 sept 08 001.JPG (179.05 KiB) Viewed 2435 times
shaun
Member
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:30 pm
Location: Antwerp

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby phil » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:50 am

Yeah, that is the one Shaun. Thanks for posting it.

ps, I had found an old black and white photo showing the street before that building was there, but now when I go to look for it I can't find it any more! I will post it as soon as I manage to find it though.
phil
Old Master
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:32 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:15 am

BTH wrote:Please god the colour of the masonry in the render is a printing mistake.


I was reminded initially of the Shay Cleary office building on Dawson Street, but the similarity's not as strong as I thought.

Image

Also, re North Great George's Street, whilst I like that building, I'm not sure I'd hold it up as an examplar of sensitive infill in a Georgian streetscape in any way except regarding the materials, which work very well.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby phil » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:41 am

It is nothing flash, but I don't think it detracts from the street as a whole. As it was replacing what looked to be a walled garden, I don't think it had to be of the same scale as its surroundings.

I suppose I would advocate the use of similar materials in situations like this, while not ending up with a pastiche solution. On a broader level, I often admire the variety in styles of doorways on the Georgians on the North end of Merrion Square (for example). There is also some subtle variations in window styles, with the RIAI being a prime example. This is something that the pastiche solution never seems to be able to pick up on (unless of course they themselves become a sought after 'style' of their own merit in years to come!:)). Maybe this should be the challenge for building within the context of a largely intact Georgian terrace?

Incidently, the doorway/porch of the North Great Georges Street building looks like it was taken from somewhere else and placed there more recently than when the the building was built. Anyone know anything about it?
phil
Old Master
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:32 pm

Re: Georgian infilling in Dublin.

Postby gunter » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:39 am

You know where the Garda HQ is on Harcourt Street, wasn't there a 1940s in-fill there, between Georgian terraces, that was quite well regarded? I think it housed a premises called 'The Television Club' or some such. I can't think of where I would have seen photographs. I may be getting mixed up.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland