Trinity College Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby gunter » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:51 pm

hutton wrote:
The DCC website seems to have really deteriorated again in recent months - are other people finding this, or is it just certain browsers?


I find it painfully slow most of the time, but as you say, it could be just certain browsers. I still prefer to go into the counter whenever possible, use their ink etc.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby missarchi » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:45 pm

4064/08

nice new model at DCC McCullough Mulvin Architects
Attachments
MMM.jpg
MMM.jpg (62.1 KiB) Viewed 4239 times
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby notjim » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:35 pm

Thanks for posting that missarchi! I guess it is almost predictable, a Mc Cullough Mulvin building with those modish tall and thin irregularly spaced windows. I am surprised though by how separate from the arts building it is, it doesn't look like it impinges on the figurative beyond the first step; it is narrower than I expected.

I amn't sure if I like it or not; it would be great to hear views from those who are better at reading models.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby missarchi » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:22 pm

no students in the afternoon sun infront of the book of kells
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby gunter » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:43 am

notjim wrote:I guess it is almost predictable, a Mc Cullough Mulvin building with those modish tall and thin irregularly spaced windows. .


It looks like a dead ringer for Grafton's Merrion Row building, especially the Hugenot Cemetry elevation! It's hard to tell from the model (still no documents scaned up on the DCC web site), but I imagine the finish is stone here also.

The building looks like it's been designed to fill out the gap between the the west end of the Library and the east elevation of the Exam Hall, above the reading room, when viewed from the main square, which is a brave move that may not please tradionalists and film-set location finders.

Having a narrow, stand alone, frontage to Fellows' Square will give it an 'object in the space' quality rather than a 'termination of the space' quality, which may have been the only option, given the presence of the Reading Room at this end of the square.

As an object, it does look pretty crisp and clean. I wouldn't fault it for being a cousin of the Grafton building, (and their own Lincoln Place in-fill), that's how tradition works, so long as it's an advance and a refinement of these precedents and not just a piece of formula.

McCullough Mulvin have written the book on urban Dublin and the loss of tradition, so they should be a safe pair of hands for this kind of thing.

p.s. notjim: You could do worse than keep them in mind for the professorship when, as one of your first acts as provost, you create a faculty of architecture in Trinity, now that every regional Tech. seems to have one,
that is, after gunter naturally.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:03 am

It is very much in the idiom of the above mentioned buildings, including the carved out entrance portal. The random window theme, while now commonplace, holds a particular resonance in the midst of ranks of classically ordered fenestration and is thus apt in this context. As such I think the building has the potential to work quite well. Presumably limestone will be used as cladding - a nice bit of muddy Dublin Calp one thinks will not find favour.

Of perhaps greater interest the positioning, where it would appear to advance beyond the building line of the Old Library. Is this Berkeley vs Museum Round II? I don't see the justification for this, both relative to the Old Library, and the new building's wider relationship with the square, into which it seems to want to injerject rather than act as a foil to.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby spoil_sport » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:19 am

McCullough Mulvin have been playing with this language for a while now, long before Merrion Row - just looking through their website - Lincoln place for a start, Oakpark (rather obscure project), Freiburg library competition, Digital Hub and Newmarket framework plans, etc. One would expect that they have refined this typology by now, there does infact appear to be a strong rhythm to the facade, not as rigid as the grafton exercise, but certinally not "irregularly spaced windows".
The presence of the reading room is somewhat problematic, it negates the possibility of ever terminating that space correctly, I fail to see the value of it, it was built at the same time as Corbu was doing his thing, and used much of the same technology, and is only in the region of 30years older than the arts block. Yet it looks old, so apparently that's enough to warrent protecting it. It looks good to the tourists I suppose. However given that it is there and won't be moving anytime soon, the "object in space" appears to be the only way to sucessfully treat any new intervention there.
spoil_sport
Member
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:42 pm

Agreed - it would have been interesting if the reading room was removed - it would have allowed for the insertion of a modern building into Parliament Square. After all it's a lovely mixture of architecture and styles from the west front, to Chambers work, Lanyon's campanile, the Library, and the Rubics and Graduates building. A new instertion from McCullough Mulvin, whom I'm personally a great fan of, would have been an exciting concept. It would also have created a really nice collection of buildings on the Nassau Street side of the library - the Arts block, ABK's library, Burgh's Library and the new building.
A chance lost.
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby jimg » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:30 pm

I have to say I'd hate to see the 37 removed.

I agree with Graham's concerns regarding the positioning.

I grabbed the attached image from the excellent bird's eye view on maps.live.com and as you can see the 37 is quite carefully positioned.

However the line it establishes in the direction of Nassau St. is broken by that bit sticking out of the arts block. Strangely this small part of the arts block seems to deliberately mirror the distinctive shape of the 37 while lopsidedly ignoring it's position. Maybe it's just an accident of the perspective.

I would prefer to see an attempt to try to reinforce the 37's line back to the arts block attempting to complete the rectangle. It would require removing that bit of the arts block but from the photo of the model it looks like the proposal involves this anyway.

I'm sure a reconfiguration like this would not require any reduction in the amount of floor space created by the new building.
Attachments
37 reading room j.JPG
37 reading room j.JPG (86.58 KiB) Viewed 4140 times
jimg
Member
 
Posts: 480
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Zürich

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby spoil_sport » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:16 pm

I can't say I share the concerns about the positioning, look at the above aerial view: the front line of the exam hall relative to the library and to the reading room; nothing lines up. The character of trinity's spaces is of regular, symmetric buildings placed somewhat irregularly that describe a square, without emphatically being a square, the overlapping of the buildings sets up the compression and release between and the diagonal views across them: refer to the image posed on the previous page of this thread by cestiphon looking at the corner of the library between the museum building and the berkeley. The new building appears to hold the line of the arts building which it belongs more to, than to the 1937.
spoil_sport
Member
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby notjim » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:27 pm

There are many in the college who would like to remove, or even move, the 1937; it is an interesting building, but a poor component of parliament square. However, it is not considered likely that any such scheme would get planning. The possibility of extending the 1937 was, I believe, also investigated, but nothing satisfactory was proposed.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby spoil_sport » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:37 pm

I remember seeing an aerial view of trinity taken in the 60s, prior to the building of the arts block, which show the magnetic observatory standing exactly in the place wher this new building is to go, but this was moved at some point stone by stone out to UCD and now stands in one of those obscure, don't-go-there-alone-at-night, wooded areas behind the library.

http://www.ucd.ie/englishanddrama/film/film_observatory.htm
spoil_sport
Member
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby notjim » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:20 pm

Yes, it a great pity the magnetic observatory was given away, the portico of the 1937 building, the memorial part, which I think was build first, was modeled on the observatory.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby notjim » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:26 am

The full set of documents, scanned to the usual level of illegibility, is now available at

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4064/08
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:10 am

The reading room for those not familiar with Trinity's ivory landscape....
Attachments
readingroom_lge.jpg
readingroom_lge.jpg (66.13 KiB) Viewed 4105 times
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby notjim » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:03 am

and according to the planning documents, the reason for linking the lrh and the 1937 building with an underground passageway is that this will allow important manuscripts to be brought from the long room and the manuscripts room to a digitization center in the lrb; the 1937 building is already linked underground to the old library building, as indeed is the Leakey library. This seems like overkill to me, empire building, why not locate the digitization room somewhere in the old library building.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby missarchi » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:14 am

joined at the hip indeed...

have you heard about the emergency underground passageway for the provost when the students riot about fees?
:D
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby gunter » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:21 am

A couple more shots of the model.

Image Image
Image
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby notjim » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:37 am

gunter wrote:p.s. notjim: You could do worse than keep them in mind for the professorship when, as one of your first acts as provost, you create a faculty of architecture in Trinity, now that every regional Tech. seems to have one,
that is, after gunter naturally.


I know how childish it is that I have actually thought about what I would do if I were provost, but I think about it all the time and one thing I would do is try and persuade DIT and NCAD to become part of the University of Dublin, with a view to reorganizing the three institutions into a single university with "TCD" becoming effectively the name for, more or less, what American universities call FAS, the faculty of arts and science. That would give UD if not TCD a school of architecture by default and Dublin a university with proper scope and size.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:27 am

Isn't there already a relationship between Trinity and DIT re architecture degrees? I thought the University of Dublin awarded the degrees? Perhaps this has changed, but I think it was true in the early '90s at any rate.

Also, nice to see more shots of the model. I like the building, but I'm not sure if it's the location for it / right building for that location- it doesn't close the square sufficiently for my liking. Too much the modernist 'object in space', I fear.

Could there be other reasons for its form? Views from the Provost's House towards the Old Library, for example?

Also, I think I'd prefer if the east end of it were at least in line with the west end wall of the Library, if not pulled back even further to open the vista through to Front Square. It seems that it currently projects slightly beyond (east of) the line of the west end of the Library.

Re my photo above, mentioned by spoil_sport- I think something similar to the Berkeley treatment should have been considered for the corner. As proposed, it appears to be recessed, but a more pronounced stepping might allow the building to close the square whilst keeping the vista to Front Square open. Unless the plan is deliberately to close the vista, thereby making the route a little less clear to the occasional visitor...
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:57 pm

Having taken another look just now, I think there'll be sufficient clearance for the line of sight from the ramp to Front Square.

(I would have taken a few pics but I think another Archiseeker was on to me. Thankfully, I'm good at looking like a lost tourist at short notice. ;))

I still think the building should close the square a bit more.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:53 pm

ctesiphon wrote: I think another Archiseeker was on to me.


Don't you just hate when that happens.

I can't agree about the squares spoil sport. Irregular they may be, but this is mainly derived through the squares' relationship with each other, not of themselves. All of the squares have a coherence of form once you're within them. This would not be the case with Fellows' Square if this proposed building overlaps the Library. A rather crude device if emerging from the Arts Block, that for the sake of pulling back a few metres would keep everyone happy. Saying that, it may not overlap - perhaps someone could confirm this.

And another disagreement for good measure, I'd hate to see an infill building in place of the Reading Room. Not so much for the loss of the building - though of course of merit and a little charmer - but the impact on the wider Parliament/Library Square. If ever there was a case for the simplistic argument - modern is just inappropriate - this is it. At least 50% of the desirability of this space is its all-engulfing historical appearance. This should be maintained.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:18 pm

GrahamH wrote: Don't you just hate when that happens.


Que? You know where can I buy... how you say... umbrella? ;)

GrahamH wrote:Saying that, it may not overlap - perhaps someone could confirm this.


This shows it- they've conveniently included a line for us too.

I'm coming back around to thinking that the whole building should be in line with the east end of the 1937 or, at most, halfway between the line of the 1937 and the west end of the Library.
Attachments
TCD lines2.jpg
TCD lines2.jpg (56.96 KiB) Viewed 4055 times
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:38 pm

GrahamH wrote: If ever there was a case for the simplistic argument - modern is just inappropriate - this is it. At least 50% of the desirability of this space is its all-engulfing historical appearance. This should be maintained.



if that attitude had prevailed, you'd never have got Chambers buildings, or the Campanile etc etc.

The joy of Trinity is the layering of different architecture styles over time - its like a parade of great architecture from different times - 18th, 19th, 20th c ....
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Trinity College Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:56 pm

Yip - that's the classic counter argument, but with the advent of modernisim and modern production techniques there's a very clear difference between what most of us now deem 'old' and 'new'. As strange as it may seem to a Victorian, all of the buildings of these two squares to the average punter and architectural historian alike now meld into one, albeit only on a certain level, where once they were perceived so very differently relative to each other. This gives these two squares a very special coherence of character with their added value of time, that could be argued ought to be protected.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland



cron