The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Fergal » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:38 pm

If the Metro terminus was moved to College Green, I assume that there would be no stop at O'Connell Bridge, or Parnell Square, and there would be a stop at about the Carlton on O'Connell street.

Comparing these two options, and what amenities and parts of the city are served best by them:

Stephen's Green Option (with stops O'Connell bridge, Parnell Square)
Closer to:
Shopping on Grafton Street, King Street
Offices on Baggot Street, Leeson Street, Mount Street.
Goverment Buildings
Museums on Kildare Street
Nightlife on Harcourt Street, Aungier Street, Georges Street
Temple Bar (from O'Connell Bridge)
Museums on Parnell Square and the Gate (Also one of the densest residential areas in the city)
The Rotunda

Equal distance to:
Luas Red Line
Henry Street
Parnell Street

Further from:
Trinity College.

The College Green option seems to be worse, or no better for access to any part of the city, with the exception of Trinity college, which is already served by a DART stop on its doorstep.

I know College Green is the real centre of Dublin, but that doesn't make up for the fact that it has been badly neglected for a long time now, and is not a significant location for business, shopping, or entertainment. The action in the city centre is based around Henry and Grafton streets, and College Green is just a spot in the middle.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:59 pm

Fergal wrote:If the Metro terminus was moved to College Green, I assume that there would be no stop at O'Connell Bridge, or Parnell Square, and there would be a stop at about the Carlton on O'Connell street.


Fergal, if you read the thread I think you will find that nobody on it has been proposing that the metro terminus would be at College Green.

I know I have certainly never suggested any such thing, anywhere, and I'm not aware of anyone who has ever promoted such an idea.

It does appear that there is still some misunderstanding about the difference between an interchange (where two or more lines meet) and a terminus (where one or more lines terminate). This misunderstanding also manifested itself during an earlier sub-discussion on the thread.

Perhaps you could rewrite your post to take account of this.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Fergal » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:16 am

I did skim the whole thread. It seemed to me that terminating the Metro at College Green was what was being proposed. I know there were also proposals to build the station over the roadway around the Green, although I don't think the roadway is wide enough to avoid damaging the Green. And Stephen's Green has the advantage of being an interchange between the Luas, Dart and Metro, which is something that would be very hard to replicate elsewhere, especially as the original plan to join the Green Line and Metro North is never likely to be done, due to major technical difficulties.
If you could spell out your vision for how the Metro, Luas and Dart should be laid out in the city centre I would genuinely be very interested in hearing it.
I do recognise that damaging the Green is a shame, but I would not say it is a tragedy, and in this case, the rewards more than make up for it.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:49 am

this is what I wanted two sketches...

I don't have a problem with the metro north route city centre I have a problem with the station location options that I never saw...

Alonso what do you think about interconnector hitting college green/bridge then connolly or
college green pearse... Would the numbers be better? ;) csgb is going to come in and say you cannot build any where near it (connolly) but i'm sure there is somewhere west or south ;) they count 5600 on off for docklands. It is really worth connecting docklands? instead of connolly without a hop... they have already built a load of bollocks on top of it:D and it has a luas connection or is the plan to shut connolly down?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby cgcsb » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:37 pm

You asked for my comment and here it is. Are you suggesting building a station on the interconnector line under connolly? That station is already operating above capacity. The section from College Green To Pearse risks disturbing the foundations of Trinity. The congestion on College Green would only get worse if there were a dart station there because there'll be thousands of extra pedestrians and no where for them to fit on the allready chocoblock sidewalks. it may be ok though if a more pedestrian friendly enviornment is created on the Green and Dublin bus stops it's policy of forcing every bus in it's fleet down there. Besides what's wrong with connecting the two DART lines at Pearse via Stephen's Green? It's the most practical option
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:03 am

cgcsb here is a quick stab with the crayons...
Im not saying inter connector is wrong just what if... around the connolly no go?
6 could be moved south one block...

"the college green triangle" another reason for one gauge if CIE are going to 4 track the north line would it not be better to have a express route via the airport + metro north? straight into college green??? I mean do they have the space to expand the line...
there is also the idea that metro north will not run at capacity for quite some while...


Contract based on undermining planning code cannot be enforced

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0112/1231515545183.html
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:47 pm

Given the economic downturn, the prospects of St. Stephen's Green being destroyed in the near future are probably limited.

Perhaps this is the time to have a good look at all the public transport options for Dublin. Most particularly, in relation to this thread, the location of "Grand Central".
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:05 pm

I wouldn't be too sure Seamus; the problem the government has is that it needs a stimulus package but the market for Irish bonds is so bad we can't borrow to fund one, hence the deflationary public service pay cut just when deflation is a problem. If the MN consortia are able to finance the building of the metro against the metro as an asset, I'd say the government will go ahead.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:37 am

Maybe, notjim. However, even if the successful metro consortium can come up with the readies - and I hope they can - the prospect of this location being the site of an interchange in the foreseeable future is somewhat remote, as no Irish Government is going to be spending 2 billion+ on Irish Rail's line for some considerable time.

The next step should surely be to encourage the relevant authorities to continue the planned metro a bit to the South - Harold's Cross, perhaps - so that what is to be built at St. Stephen's Green is no more than a straightforward metro station. (That is, the turnback facilities would be located away from the Green).

Construction of a straightforward metro station at St. Stephen's Green might even be possible without any impact whatsoever on the park itself.:)
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:58 am

This project is dead it was entirely predicated on unrealistic growth projections that the economy would grow at 5% plus per year. As not Notjim rightly points out less is definitely more in the current climate and retaining a government agency for a project where the funds aren't there to build will go down wonderfully when teachers, nurses and gardai are asked to take a 20% pay cut.

I fully agree with Notjim the only way this will be delivered is if a private operator can make it work; there are some funds available for the big infrastructure players who are not too highly geared such as Hoctief but whether they would commit €3bn to this when they could have Gatwick Airport which carries 30m plus passengers and is already built for less than €2.5bn is unclear. What is clear is that exchequer needs to be very prudent going forward as the next S & P downgrade unlike the last will affect the price paid for existing debt.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:21 pm

Totem poles be gone with them above and below...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:30 pm

the old super pole
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:54 am

missarchi wrote:the old super pole


I don't think that a couple of lamp posts errected by the local council will mitigate the destruction of the only decent City Centre public recreation space the city has

original post by Peter F wrote:No amount of money will return the green to what we have now - a perfectly maturing & indeed a perfect city park, its integrity will be destoryed. It has survived intact for near on 130 years & yet in 2008 this generation sees fit to thoroughly vandalise it.

It seems the final decision lies with John Gormley as this level of vandalism will require an amendment to the 1877 St. Stephen's Green Act.

John Gormley, you cannot let this happen


Nor starving the rest of Dublin's transport budget to give Boomie Bertie his Drumcoundra monument.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby ihateawake » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:04 pm

No amount of money will return the green to what we have now


Money? No. Time? Yes.

Nor starving the rest of Dublin's transport budget to give Boomie Bertie his Drumcoundra monument.


These attitudes are short sighted. It does not just go to drumcondra as you know well, and luasanna everywhere will not cut it. This will be a central spine in Dublins network, off of which a larger more integrated system can be supported. A well educated work force just doesnt cut it anymore in such a competitive global economy, not to mention the damage to Irelands reputation and capability in the future should the project be withdrawn. Im just repeating myself from Metro North thread :/
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby aj » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:09 pm

ihateawake wrote:Money? No. Time? Yes.



These attitudes are short sighted. It does not just go to drumcondra as you know well, and luasanna everywhere will not cut it. This will be a central spine in Dublins network, off of which a larger more integrated system can be supported. A well educated work force just doesnt cut it anymore in such a competitive global economy, not to mention the damage to Irelands reputation and capability in the future should the project be withdrawn. Im just repeating myself from Metro North thread :/


Agree with you 100%
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:44 am

The report has much going for it but I was let down by this item

"cultural heritage" and "high quality interchange"

Almost every country in Europe has culture in interchanges...

Greece, Italy, London, Sweden, Paris you name it they have got every thing from buried ruins to contemporary architecture...

Busaras has a little as well you might say...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:40 pm

missarchi wrote:The report has much going for it but I was let down by this item

"cultural heritage" and "high quality interchange"



If one looks at the number of areas that were to be Dublin's cultural quarter with great fanfare reams of consulatants reports etc I guess at

1992 Temple Bar
1998 Smithfield
2002 IFSC
2004 Hueston
2007 Grand Canal Square

What makes you think the state would purchase some of the most valuable real estate in Europe to deliver what they have failed to deliver constantly in the past in areas where planning conditions could be used to deliver it at a much reduced price.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Global Citizen » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:50 am

[quote="Peter Fitz"]Finally a journalist exposes the level of destruction St. Stephen's Green will endure during construction of Metro North & The Dart Underground Tunnel.

The scale is massive, not only will the works necessitate the removal of many mature trees, particularly on its northern side but what remains will be blighted by a proliferation of ventilation ducts, emergency escape stairs and other accoutrements.

Image

I could never understand why The Green would need to be disturbed to facilitate any underground rail service.
On its south east corner sits an ugly office block once owned by Eircom.
Few would lament it's demolition, if it were to rise up again as a multi purpose building above a multi purpose underground.
While the location of the existing building doesn't sit above the platforms of the proposed Metro / Interconnector, the site could be used as an outlet for any excavation that will occur under the green.
The Eircom Building is located only metres from the perimeter of Stephens Green so future users of the proposed underground facilities will not be hindered by anything more than an extra 100 metre walk.
Anyone who has used Waterloo Tube in London or Chatalet/Les Halles Metro in Paris will regard such a distance as a pittance.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:59 am

yeh but how much would it cost to purchase that amount of developed land in the office core of the city
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:57 am

alonso wrote:yeh but how much would it cost to purchase that amount of developed land in the office core of the city


They don't need to but it would enhance any future proposals.
I'm more pleased with the elevators in St Stephens Green unless they put them in the shopping centres or retail there is also space in some of the lanes... but they need to set them back at least 1.4m in the park
Plan B is semi validated you only need to look at the sizing reports...

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence/MN%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Supporting%20Documentation/Station%20Sizing%20Report%20March%202009/Station%20sizing%20-%20Final%20Reportv2_Part2.pdf

(min)

5.6m platform x 2 (2040)
13 ticket gates
198 m sq. concourse
4 escalators onto the platform
Staircase 2.6m wide to interconnector
4.1 metre wide passage way to platform
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby jdivision » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:47 am

The OPW used to own it but in their wisdom sold it off. Now it's owned by RCSI with Bernard McNamara involved in the leasehold in a messy way.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby emf » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:42 pm

Global Citizen wrote:
I could never understand why The Green would need to be disturbed to facilitate any underground rail service.
On its south east corner sits an ugly office block once owned by Eircom.
Few would lament it's demolition, if it were to rise up again as a multi purpose building above a multi purpose underground.


I totally agree with the suggestion of relocating the terminus to underneath the Eircom building. I had exactly the same thought myself some time ago but I despaired that it would be worth mentioning as we seemed to be so close to a start date for getting the project off the ground.

Perhaps now, with a possible delay in the offing, it would be worth re-looking at other options, such as the Eircom building, which might not only benefit Stephen's Green but might also allow the redevelopment of a corner of 'The Green'.

It seems to make perfect sense.

The Eircom building is now getting to the stage that it probably is not up to the standard that companies are looking for in modern office space.
It will probably end up being demolished and rebuilt in the next 10 - 15 years anyway, (if the economy ever picks back up).

If the Eircom site is used:

1. The building can be demolished.
2. Site excavated.
3. Underground infrastructure put in place - with links into College of Surgeons, travellators installed for quick access to Grafton St, King St etc.
4. Retail, cultural infrastructure installed at underground and ground level.
5. Energy efficient, 21st century office space on upper floors.
6. Initial outlay for acquisition of office block recouped with sale/ lease of development.

Result:

1. Underground infrastructure in place.
2. 100 - 200 year old trees in Stephen's Green intact.
3. Ugly, (moving towards obsolescent), office building replaced with 21st century office, retail, cultural infrastructure.

Sounds like an idea worth exploring to me!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:36 pm

The Eircom building is not one that would be demolished for a number of reasons;

1. Block C starts 2 floors down
2. Daimer Hall is protected
3. Eircom is good space with functional air-con etc

If you were going down that route it would be more likely that Russell House / Stokes Place owned by Treasury Holdings would be the one as it will be redeveloped in a manner capable of delivering a higher percentage uplift in floor space due to a road network and surface carpark forming a large proportion of the site.

It is however more remote and developing underground pedestrian routes under buildings is very time consuming. A Cross rail interchange will open at Tottenham Court Road W1 in 2016, TfL have already taken vacant possession of a number of the buildings that will form part of that scheme as of Feb 2009 a full 7 years prior to completion.

I fully agree that St Stephens Green cannot be wantonly destroyed in the manner proposed but equally I can't see the location for a rail terminus inside the canals without disproportionate expense or irreversable destruction.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:21 am

Is Daimer Hall the Unitarian church?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Global Citizen » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:39 am

PVC King wrote:The Eircom building is not one that would be demolished for a number of reasons;

1. Block C starts 2 floors down
2. Daimer Hall is protected
3. Eircom is good space with functional air-con etc



Points 1 and 3 are poor reasons why the Eircom building sould be ruled out as a potential site for the metro station.
So what if block C starts 2 floors down.

And is the fact that the place has fabulous air conditioning hardly a good reason to preserve it ?

I think the park in Stephens Green provides far more air conditioning for the centre of Dublin.
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