The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:03 am



Missarchi: how much better it would be if you said what was interesting and why along with the link!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:11 pm

notjim wrote:Missarchi: how much better it would be if you said what was interesting and why along with the link!


That would suppose analytical ability, What is clear is that Missarchi has made a number of posts on this thread none of which have discussed the precisis of the discussion i.e. the wanton destruction of the City's finest inner city park with taxpayers money.

Thankfully global markets collapsing have given me one crumb of comfort to go with a huge amount of pain; namely that the Green is safe for another decade at least; I wonder how many quango's will be sacrificed in the required fiscal rectitude phase that is long overdue.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby ihateawake » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:37 pm

Jeez, if we had to keep you happy Dublin would be a model of dysfunction.


...oh....wait...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:58 pm

ihateawake wrote:Jeez, if we had to keep you happy Dublin would be a model of dysfunction.


...oh....wait...



And your classification of the park is??


Andthe surface optiomns of the railhead are?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby ihateawake » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:30 am

Since the line is unfortunately not goin beyond this point, I dont see any surface options, do you? It would be nice if it exited at ranelagh and connected with luas or something, but that is not happening... if there has to be a major terminus in SSG, and it has to be dug up to accomadate it, then so be it. A beautiful park is little cosolation to countless suffering commuters and a waning economy. The green is a great asset, but this line is a necessity.
Replanting trees is easier than attracting FDI. Then again, this has all been said before.

As for classification of the green... "really pretty";)
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:00 pm

it's not an either/or situation - it's a construction impact... jaysus. We';ll get the Green back. It may no longer conform to it's suddenly granted utopian status conferred upon it here, but it will remain an open space. Only far more conveniently accessibel to far more people
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:03 pm

The question that needs to be asked is it dublins most used attraction/park?

nobody seems to know including failte ireland..

the point of this thread there are at least 2 architectural options plus one not that should have more info in the EIS

2 of them have little damage... approx 25 mtr sq. and it could be 0
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:53 am

alonso wrote:it's not an either/or situation - it's a construction impact... jaysus. We';ll get the Green back. It may no longer conform to it's suddenly granted utopian status conferred upon it here, but it will remain an open space. Only far more conveniently accessibel to far more people


You won't get the Green back for at least 50 years; the genisis of the Green is that it is a mature space that has developed a random quality put together by generations of park keepers. What you would get is a steralised version of a heritage park such as the interior of Merrion Square at best or Mounjoy Square at worst; you would also lose the main access to the space for a considerable period of time.

I see a lot of people complaining about buildings getting knocked that would not be preserved in any other serious capital but the alterations proposed to the premier innner city park would not happen in London, Paris or any other City with attitude.

A beautiful park is little cosolation to countless suffering commuters and a waning economy. The green is a great asset, but this line is a necessity.
Replanting trees is easier than attracting FDI. Then again, this has all been said before.


I totally disagree that linking the airport to St Stephens Green by rail or retaining a fine Victorian planting scheme is an either or. The options to avoid destruction are

1. Link the airport to the interconnector by 4 tracking between Fairview and Portmarnock; the Dart upgrade to Malahide future proofed bridges on that section to accomodate 4 tracks.

2. Build the metro if the price becomes realistic in light of falling tax revenues and falling construction costs in major economies. But close Luas from the end of Harcourt Street i.e. 300m of track and surface on the existing track bed.

What is proposed is really the last thing you would want to do on the grounds of reinstatement costs if nothing else; the costs of things like draining ponds, taking down stone arches, sourcing semi-mature plants all very niche and very expensive and given the furore over medical cards how do you think this type of expenditure will play out in rural constituencies?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby markpb » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:23 am

PVC King wrote:I totally disagree that linking the airport to St Stephens Green by rail or retaining a fine Victorian planting scheme is an either or. The options to avoid destruction are


How many times do people have to be told it's not an airport metro before the message starts to sink in? It's a metro serving the city centre, drumcondra, glasnevin, beaumont, ballymun, the airport and swords. The airport is probably going to be the quietest of all the stations. Your first option only links the airport to the Dart and leaves the rest of those areas train-less and your second option is not only infeasible given the size of drop shafts required for TBMs, it also makes the Luas even less useful if it's terminus is moved further from buses coming from the northside.

In any event, I'm still dubious of the chances of MN ever being built. This country is still too backward when it comes to infrastructure (other than roads).
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:50 am

markpb wrote:your second option is not only infeasible given the size of drop shafts required for TBMs, it also makes the Luas even less useful if it's terminus is moved further from buses coming from the northside.


The TBM is to remain under the green so i presume it is to be sunk at the other end, and come on, an extra few hundred metres walk for a few years won't kill anyone.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:21 pm

markpb wrote:and your second option is not only infeasible given the size of drop shafts required for TBMs,


mark what do you think the drop shaft size required is?????
I have photos but mabye you could provide all the information I think you would be suprised???
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:35 pm

while we are in milan would the milan method work

Image
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:13 pm

missarchi wrote:mark what do you think the drop shaft size required is?????
I have photos but mabye you could provide all the information I think you would be suprised???


Mark I know you know what you are talking about given your background and that is what concerns me most.

If a 300m run from Benneton to Eircom isn't enough then just how far into Stephens Green are they planning to go; more than 300m would almost take the excavation as far as Leeson Street.

Dublin traders want Metro North hearing
Friday, 7 November 2008 15:50
Dublin traders want a public hearing into the Dublin Metro North project, claiming that disruption costs to the city could total €2bn.

The Rail Procurement Agency has applied to An Bord Pleanála for a railway order to start the project but there is no obligation to hold a hearing.

Tom Coffey of the Dublin City Centre Business Association welcomed the concept of the Metro North but said a public hearing should still be held due to the public importance of the project.

AdvertisementMr Coffey said: 'We are concerned that this project (in its current guise) may well prove unnecessarily damaging to the existing economy as well prove to be the least cost efficient means of achieving what we all agree is a necessary project.'

Mr Coffey said there are concerns about the adequacy of the Environmental Impact Assessment and that it was unfair that the public sector were given extra time to study its 3,000-page report while the private sector was not.

An RPA spokesman said it was expecting a public hearing to be held around February 2009.


Surely if the TBM is to be encapsulated in the medium term then all they need to put in are entrances; if the project were to involve encapsulating the machine and if they built 3 entrances then none of them would need to be much more than 1,000 sq feet each. The way that Oxford Circus has been done could be very effective with say 4 exits at various points i.e. one for Luas, one for Grafton Street and another for Dawson St which would involve minimal disruption based on small scale interventions vs a cavernous entrance; what would be required would be to have a significant interchange with interconnector underground and then three sets of escalators to the three seperate entrances with both networks merged at the higher of the two platform heights.

Presumably the TBM would be equivelent to one of the Dublin Port Tunnel directions and that the spoil would all be removed en route to Stephens Green and not from Stephens Green; which if that is trhe case you would wonder why there was ever an idea to trash the green in the first place. Preserving the park and the retail environment during the construction phase are very important.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:15 am

PVC King wrote:Surely if the TBM is to be encapsulated in the medium term then all they need to put in are entrances; if the project were to involve encapsulating the machine and if they built 3 entrances then none of them would need to be much more than 1,000 sq feet each. The way that Oxford Circus has been done could be very effective with say 4 exits at various points i.e. one for Luas, one for Grafton Street and another for Dawson St which would involve minimal disruption based on small scale interventions vs a cavernous entrance; what would be required would be to have a significant interchange with interconnector underground and then three sets of escalators to the three seperate entrances with both networks merged at the higher of the two platform heights.

What still doesn't seem to be clear is why the interconnector - if it is to be built and if it is to be run at the currently proposed fraction of its capacity - needs to be built through St. Stephen's Green.

As was previously illustrated on this thread, a much shorter (and cheaper) route would achieve exactly the same purpose.:confused:
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:01 pm

who controls the roads???? we all know a master plan for st stephens green is needed with street furniture and character.

the interconnector alignment appears related to st stephens green shopping centre and any future intentions they may have...

any way vents can be in the road or seats we have seen emergency exits in the roads in the RPA parnell stop...

the interconnetor approach has no strategic architectural potential at this stage but the apparent capacity also should be easier to upgrade or put a platform below minus the limited 3 escalators from the concourse...

it would be nice to actually see two options no damage and damage with stratergic architecture to boot...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:27 pm

Seamus O'G wrote:What still doesn't seem to be clear is why the interconnector - if it is to be built and if it is to be run at the currently proposed fraction of its capacity - needs to be built through St. Stephen's Green.

As was previously illustrated on this thread, a much shorter (and cheaper) route would achieve exactly the same purpose.:confused:



Stay on point
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:13 am

PVC King wrote:Stay on point

But surely my original comment is on point?

One of the reasons why it is necessary to have such a large station at St. Stephen's Green, and to cause so much destruction, is because it is an interchange station.

A shorter (and cheaper) route for the interconnector - for example between Heuston and Spencer Dock via College Green/Dame Street - would suit more people (more people wish to travel to the centre of the city than to St. Stephen's Green), would probably significantly enhance the chances of pedestrianisation of College Green, and would mean that the works at St. Stephen's Green would be significantly smaller.

It seems like a no-brainer.

The only justification which has yet been produced for the interconnector being built through the Green is that it would allow it and the Green LUAS to meet up. Clearly there are other locations where this will be possible in the future.

The next step, to make the situation even better, would then be to continue the proposed metro southward.

Both of those measures would result in construction of a simple metro station at St. Stephen's Green, without any hullaballoo and without significant destruction.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:20 am

SSG is the centre of the city. It remains the commercial core of Dublin and of the country, with the prime retail streets and the heart of the office and professional services sectors in Georgian Dublin. It's also closest to much of the city's true nightlife ie nightlife for us not tourists. I'm still flabbergasted that people regard Dame st as more central just because it;s closer to the GPO
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:40 am

alonso wrote:SSG is the centre of the city.

The lobby group P11 used to - and possibly still do - have as their mantra that they were against AnLarism (I hope you will excuse the lack of a fada on my keyboard), but your comments do not explain two things: It is clear that if the LUAS link-up is built, that the station at SSG will not be the busiest station (the station closest to College Green will, almost certainly , be): And around 60% of Dublin's buses which run in the area between the canals travel through College Green - while the comparable figure for SSG is around 23% . For a city which has a largely bus-based transport system i think you will need to explain yourself if you want to express the view that St. Stephen's Green is the centre of the city.

It remains the commercial core of Dublin and of the country, with the prime retail streets and the heart of the office and professional services sectors in Georgian Dublin. It's also closest to much of the city's true nightlife ie nightlife for us not tourists. I'm still flabbergasted that people regard Dame st as more central just because it;s closer to the GPO


Prime retail streets? are you planning to slot in Henry Street there?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:59 pm

The SSG stop is expected to be the busiest as it will take Metro passengers from the Northside, DART passengers from the South West and North coastal line and Luas passengers from the south all directly into the office, retail and cultural core of our city. And the figures show this. It's been said a million times here already - college Green is not a major trip attractor for commuters - just a filter. Remove TCD and what have you got? 2 banks and a Spar? the reason so many buses go to College Green is due to one thing and one thing only - the An Lar-ism you refer to yourself.

I consider everything from SSG to Parnell Square as our City Centre and Grafton St and environs incl the Green comprise a major hub of diverse activities. As for prime retail streets, yes Grafton st and Environs are among Dublin's prime retail streets, along with Henry Street - but as far as comprising a retail area, the south city is far more comprehensive and diverse
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby dc3 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:21 pm

Seamus O'G wrote:For a city which has a largely bus-based transport system i think you will need to explain yourself if you want to express the view that St. Stephen's Green is the centre of the city.


Sadly the most common means of transport in Dublin is not the bus, but the car, whatever you may feel about that. I recently encouraged a colleague returning with me from a meeting on the North side to use a bus, he reckoned it was about eighteen years since he had been on one.

Dublin is increasingly divided into little enclaves, with the users of one rarely, or never, venturing out of their preferred turf, and for many southside residents the only items North of the Grafton Street pedestrian zone is the Airport.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:44 pm

dc3 wrote:Dublin is increasingly divided into little enclaves, with the users of one rarely, or never, venturing out of their preferred turf, and for many southside residents the only items North of the Grafton Street pedestrian zone is the Airport.


I agree and that is why we need to get the O'Connell street stop perfect... which will follow onto college green plaza and line f to heuston if done well add parnell into the mix and and free city circle tram and you might be in business...

it is so important we get these stations right in a landscape sense as well...

some of the proposals currently fall that test...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:01 pm

alonso wrote:The SSG stop is expected to be the busiest as it will take Metro passengers from the Northside, DART passengers from the South West and North coastal line and Luas passengers from the south all directly into the office, retail and cultural core of our city.


Yes, SSG will be the busiest stop if an interchange is built there. We know that. It's obvious.

If the highest capacity East-West line ever to be built across the city is indeed to be built, it is quite obvious that the busiest station will be the one which is closest to the centre.

Come on, Alonso:confused:

And the figures show this.


Can you provide these figures, please.

The clear indication from the O'Reilly report was that, for a stand-alone metro (i.e a north-south line with no connection to anything, bar the LUAS) the College Green stop would have been the busiest. In other words, along a North-South route, College Green would be the most desired location. There is no reason that I can think of why the views of the majority of passengers travelling along a West-East corridor - such as would be provided by the interconector - should be any different. Can you?

It's been said a million times here already - college Green is not a major trip attractor for commuters - just a filter. Remove TCD and what have you got? 2 banks and a Spar? the reason so many buses go to College Green is due to one thing and one thing only - the An Lar-ism you refer to yourself.


I only mentioned College Green because it is an alternative location which would clearly be capable of hosting an underground interchange. There may be other central locations which are capable of performing this function. O'Connell Bridge, perhaps?

But you simply cannot define College Green as a location with TCD, two banks and a Spar.:(

It lies right between the two major retail areas of the city It is in the centre of a very large business area, and it is busy all the time. This is simply not the case with St. Stephen's Green.

The case for building the interconnector through St. Stephen's Green is largely based on the demand for travel to locations like Baggot Street, Adelaide Road, Leeson Street, Hatch Street, etc., not St. Stephen's Green itself. (Is the Green itself a major trip attractor? I doubt it)

I fully understand that these are areas which are vitally important to the city, and to which decent public transport must eventually go.

But, since they are all incredibly quiet areas at the weekeend, and outside the hours when people are actually travelling to and from work, it would unfortunately be a mistake to build the city's highest capacity line through St. Stephen's Green in an effort to serve them and to force the largest group of passengers to change to get to where they wish to go, which is the city centre.

A mistake which is, however, likely to be made.:(
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SunnyDub » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:37 pm

I can't believe this thread is still going...anyway, surely it makes sense to build a network of lines across the city centre rather than just duplication through the very centre, that way the city can start to really connect up and truly spread east and west, e.g. a Luas turning north-west as it goes north so that it feeds into new DIT campus and links in other areas for example.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:24 am

typed this last night but the site crashed - Lucky I saved it! (or maybe not)

Seamus O'G wrote:Yes, SSG will be the busiest stop if an interchange is built there. We know that. It's obvious.



If the highest capacity East-West line ever to be built across the city is indeed to be built, it is quite obvious that the busiest station will be the one which is closest to the centre.



Come on, Alonso:confused:




did you not state that it would not be busiest? That's how i read your previous post anyway



Can you provide these figures, please.




I can't but Iarnrod Eireann or the RPA have stated it in the past - not sure if it was in the context of the IC or Metro.



The clear indication from the O'Reilly report was that, for a stand-alone metro (i.e a north-south line with no connection to anything, bar the LUAS) the College Green stop would have been the busiest. In other words, along a North-South route, College Green would be the most desired location. There is no reason that I can think of why the views of the majority of passengers travelling along a West-East corridor - such as would be provided by the interconector - should be any different. Can you?




those that want to go to work in the South East city office core might differ. Who that works on Leeson st, Fitzwilliam or Harcourt st would prefer College green?



I only mentioned College Green because it is an alternative location which would clearly be capable of hosting an underground interchange. There may be other central locations which are capable of performing this function. O'Connell Bridge, perhaps?




Why? OCSt will have a Metro stop anyway and is served by heavy rail at Tara, and Luas lines. And your use of the term "clearly be capable" is dubious, expecially considering this thread is about the sheer scale of the surface disruption necessary. How would you build a similarly scaled interchange on College Green?



But you simply cannot define College Green as a location with TCD, two banks and a Spar.:(




tongue in cheek. But compared to the Green and the adjacent office core - (an area that I would suggest has the highest density of persons during office hours on the island) it's shag all.



It lies right between the two major retail areas of the city It is in the centre of a very large business area, and it is busy all the time. This is simply not the case with St. Stephen's Green.




Stephen;s Green is one of those retail areas. Serve it directly. On the contrary, College Green is one of the furthest locations away from the large business area of Dublin. I don't honestly get your characterisation of SSG as not being busy. The top of Grafton street is thronged all day and at 9am and 5:30 the area to the south and south west is full of commuters. That sentence makes me think we live in different cities. Try walk up Merrion row at lunch time when these workers get out. You can't. Not without using half the roadway...



The case for building the interconnector through St. Stephen's Green is largely based on the demand for travel to locations like Baggot Street, Adelaide Road, Leeson Street, Hatch Street, etc., not St. Stephen's Green itself. (Is the Green itself a major trip attractor? I doubt it)




Exactly. Exactly Exactly. But SSG is the centre of this retail and office core. College Green is a road artery that severs the city. If, and it's a gigantic if, they decide to shut the entire College Green area for a decade and dig it up and then repave it for pedestrians, i wouldn't be opposed. BUt SSG is still a better location in my opinion because people work there and in the adjacent urban quarter! College Green is a long long way from any major concentration of offices - Hawkins and Apollo House, George's Quay(both served directly by DART already) and Central bank is about it, compared to a massive district of 5/6 storey high density Georgian offices plus mews, with major blocks interspersed in between (BoI, Greencore, Harcourt St, Eircom, Government Bldgs, SSG South, Hatch Street etc)



I fully understand that these are areas which are vitally important to the city, and to which decent public transport must eventually go.



But, since they are all incredibly quiet areas at the weekeend, and outside the hours when people are actually travelling to and from work, it would unfortunately be a mistake to build the city's highest capacity line through St. Stephen's Green in an effort to serve them and to force the largest group of passengers to change to get to where they wish to go, which is the city centre.




what???? Now you;ve totally lost me. Grafton St, S William St, Camden St - Georges st QUIET at the weekends? Jaysus I queued for an hour for a shaggin taxi at the SSG rank a few months ago and as for shoppers, are you serious?. Where is this city you refer to? What largest group are you referring to? Commuters are by far and away the largest group and far and away the group with the sharpest peak demand. Are you talking about the Shoppers? They want to go to the exact spot this station is located at. The EXACT spot! It IS the city centre. It's "town" Stephen's Green, Grafton Street, Govt Buildings, the Office Core of the city with the highest concetration of workers in Ireland, the domestic nightlife core and a major urban space all to be served at one interchange.



What have I missed?



I really honestly cannot think of a better route for this line. And any further response can be an "agree to disagree" as i cannot put my points across any better than the above.
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