The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sat May 17, 2008 11:18 am

ofjames wrote:after irish rail lost the battle for the broadstone alignment, Minister Dempsey gave them a consolation prize by suggesting that the current Docklands station will be retained to cater for the Navan services IR wanted to send to Broadstone. As it stands, it seems that the time-restriction on the planning permission that was granted for Docklands will be scrapped, and the midland line will continue to be used in the future for Navan and perhaps some other maynooth line services


There is no harm in retaining a terminus down there but a concrete and galvenise structure is sadly unambitious and a dreadful waste of land; there could have been an interesting option to bring the Navan/Maynooth line underground and have had trains running say Navan to Adamstown as well as the Kildare - Drogheda routing already envisaged.

I have no real opinion on who should use Broadstone as it is a little edge of town for a main terminus in any event a sort of Hueston pre Luas arrangement in many respects. Like so many of the Victorian termini it was at the edge of the city i.e. as far in as the railway promotors could get without laying waste to significant tracts of the City which given the destruction of the loopline it is certainly a good thing that Broadstone is as close to Henrietta Street as the line got.

The real bonus of underground rail is that the centre should be more or less unaffected save for exits to the stations. For this reason alone the proposal to terminate a railway in Stephens Green defies belief in the context of the number of underdeveloped sites in leafy D6. The costs of the disruption will be simply horrendous for City offices and retailers in particular; sadly it appears that state agencies are simply incapable of admitting they are mortal like the rest of us and from time to time get it wrong.

The city really needs an airport link that hits key locations such as Croke Park, O'C St, Stephens Green and this route will also bring Swords and Ballymun into play as viable business locations but why can't the line be extended to at least the DCC holding at Charlemont St which could accomodate a significant quantum of additional mixed use development to pay fopr a lot of the costs as well as extending the area covered by the special development levies.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Mon May 19, 2008 8:57 am

jimg wrote:I dunno. I think the T21 plan (fingers crossed it gets implemented) is absolutely fantastic. As an excuse to learn something about Inkscape, I created the attached image which demonstrates what we are getting in terms of high capacity rail in the city centre. (I'm quite a bit less enthusiastic about what is planned for Luas.) Dart 1 is red, Dart 2 is green and Metro North is blue. The slightly opaque circles represent about a 400m cachement area around the stations. Walking slowly, 400m takes under 5 minutes. Everything (except the fact that Metro North doesn't extend further south) seems to make sense to me in terms of maximising the use of the existing infrastructure, providing coverage and integration. Squishing everything into the centre (i.e. moving the Green interchange to College Green, pushing Spensor Dock under Connolly and the Dart 2 stop under Pearse under Tara) the makes no sense to me. Dame St and College Green are covered in cachement circles. This will be easily worth some trees on Stephen's Green; just look at it!


Nice work, Jim.

Now try it using the originally planned route, with an interchange in or around College Green/Dame Street. You should find that the only circle which disappears is the one around Spencer Dock, and the LUAS line to the Point (currently under construction) should be nicely poised to deal with that.

And you might also try a Spencer Dock-Heuston route via Pearse Station and College Green/Dame Street, with the metro interchange at the latter location. I think you'll find that your arrangement of circles is almost exactly the same as in your original picture.

That is, the city could get exactly the same transport coverage without necessitating the wholesale destruction of St. Stephen's Green because of the construction of an interchange there.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby jdivision » Mon May 19, 2008 9:20 am

PVC King wrote:why can't the line be extended to at least the DCC holding at Charlemont St which could accomodate a significant quantum of additional mixed use development to pay fopr a lot of the costs as well as extending the area covered by the special development levies.


1. Because the locals have consistently opposed any plans to demolish the flats there
2. They will soon be able to buy said flats themselves leading to disparate ownership and even greater difficulties in securing a concensus on the future of the site
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby ctesiphon » Mon May 19, 2008 9:30 am

I thought DCC was preparing a Framework Plan (or even an LAP? One can only hope...) for the Charlemont Street area?

Though perhaps the... eh, hiccups with PPP redevelopment of DCC sites would have an impact on this? Don't know the details (reported in Saturday's Irish Times among other locations).
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby jdivision » Mon May 19, 2008 10:07 am

They're planning a ppp, but as you say there's problems with all of the other ones. The last plan that was drawn up was rejected by those living there as was a previous one if I recall correctly. The new leglistation on being able to buy your own flat is due to report by year end I think, which could make a redevelopment completely unviable if there is disparate ownership.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby BostonorBerlin » Mon May 19, 2008 12:17 pm

Rory W wrote:40 year old plan as seen in old secondary school books do not an effective plan make


Yeah I know those old plans were a complete joke, just as the transport system of decades ago was , they lacked integration, were lacking in true vision, lacked enviromental impact studies, expensive paving stones, clean modern aesthetic form... what a joke those old plans probably didnt even have an abundance of consultants working on these.
And worst of all the main train journey times on those old plans were actually shorter, which if we had them today would give us less time to sit in the carriage working on our laptops devising plans to spend billions to improve the service and time.
Iarnród Éireann admits journey times are longer http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=63096-qqqx=1.asp

Thankfully those awful days of faster train journeys are well and truly behind us as real visionaries are working on improving the lives of all those who take public transport.. just depends on when you set the clock, would that be improvements relative to the 90s,80s or 70s your looking for there.
ha ha ha I say let the same apes who oversaw development of Irelands national rail loose on Stephens Green and I dont mean the ones up in dublin zoo... add in the talk of a congestion charge and traffic diversions being put in place to prepare people for the impact of the work, before the work commences.. I think one could say the fun has well and truly started... this is going to be hilarious.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby damcw » Mon May 19, 2008 12:49 pm

Lets get some perspective folks. We're not the first city to build a metro line and we're going to have to suffer some pain just like everyone else had to. Barcelona is a beautiful city but underneath most of their city squares are underground carparks and metro stations and they didn't appear by magic.

Right now in Vancouver they're building the Canada line and they have completely excavated Graville Street which is the central street running through downtown Vancouver.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9223/p1040931cx0.jpg


We are going to suffer construction and traffic disruption for a few years but these are lines we simply have to build. Let's put the crayons away because the plans will not be changed now.

We all know that cutting corners is the worst option!
M50 junctions
Westlink Toll Bridge
Luas line link up

When you consider the huge benefit that a car free city center will bring to the urban environment then the corner of St, Stephen's Green is a small price to pay.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Mon May 19, 2008 1:19 pm

BostonorBerlin wrote:Yeah I know those old plans were a complete joke, just as the transport system of decades ago was , they lacked integration, were lacking in true vision, lacked enviromental impact studies, expensive paving stones, clean modern aesthetic form... what a joke those old plans probably didnt even have an abundance of consultants working on these.
And worst of all the main train journey times on those old plans were actually shorter, which if we had them today would give us less time to sit in the carriage working on our laptops devising plans to spend billions to improve the service and time.
Iarnród Éireann admits journey times are longer http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=63096-qqqx=1.asp

Thankfully those awful days of faster train journeys are well and truly behind us as real visionaries are working on improving the lives of all those who take public transport.. just depends on when you set the clock, would that be improvements relative to the 90s,80s or 70s your looking for there.
ha ha ha I say let the same apes who oversaw development of Irelands national rail loose on Stephens Green and I dont mean the ones up in dublin zoo... add in the talk of a congestion charge and traffic diversions being put in place to prepare people for the impact of the work, before the work commences.. I think one could say the fun has well and truly started... this is going to be hilarious.


Hmm. You would have a point if it wasn't for a few simple facts related to things like 20% unempleyment and Ireland having a rapidly diminishing population due to emigration back then. Of course transport in Ireland was easier and faster when no-one had anywhere to go except their nearest port. A bit more of a challenge when every single person in the State has a job they all want to get to at 9 AM and there's half a million immigrants here. But thinking like that might lead to you giving credit to the Ireland that has developed in the last 15 years wouldn't it?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby ctesiphon » Mon May 19, 2008 1:39 pm

alonso wrote:Hmm. You would have a point if it wasn't for a few simple facts related to things like 20% unempleyment and Ireland having a rapidly diminishing population due to emigration back then. Of course transport in Ireland was easier and faster when no-one had anywhere to go except their nearest port. A bit more of a challenge when every single person in the State has a job they all want to get to at 9 AM and there's half a million immigrants here. But thinking like that might lead to you giving credit to the Ireland that has developed in the last 15 years wouldn't it?


Gold star. Take the rest of the day off. ;) (That way you can beat the traffic, eh?)
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby BostonorBerlin » Mon May 19, 2008 3:46 pm

alonso wrote:Hmm. You would have a point if it wasn't for a few simple facts related to things like 20% unempleyment and Ireland having a rapidly diminishing population due to emigration back then. Of course transport in Ireland was easier and faster when no-one had anywhere to go except their nearest port. A bit more of a challenge when every single person in the State has a job they all want to get to at 9 AM and there's half a million immigrants here. But thinking like that might lead to you giving credit to the Ireland that has developed in the last 15 years wouldn't it?


You have totally confused me here how does 20% unemployment and a diminishing population have an impact on the distance between Dublin and Waterford and therefore cause a train to run faster between these two points when you have longer dole queues. Or are you saying the number of people emigrating impacts on Irelands gravitational field causing relativistic distances and wall clock time to shrink and should be considered as another dimension in the space/time continum..your moving into the bounds of quantum non-linear correlations their boyo.

ctesiphon wrote:Gold star. Take the rest of the day off. ;) (That way you can beat the traffic, eh?)

Thats funny so your both basically implying that no transport plan (integrated or not) or expenditure of money will ever improve commuting times as long as population and number of working commuters increases. This implies there is no hope for improved service,(even if they dig up St Stephens Green) we can only hope for a solution that at best maintains status quo at worst limits degredation in the quality of transport to a minimum as long as the commuting population also grows. We should accept journey times will always increase as numbers of commuters increases , another definition of progress no doubt.
You can answer me tomorrow, i take it you both left early to beat all that traffic that suddenly appeared overnight out of the blue without any warning ...:D
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Mon May 19, 2008 4:10 pm

BoB. the places weren't further away or closer as you might already know. Journey times were shorter. Journey time across all modes is dependent on demand related to supply. When there is no demand for a rail service, it will run quicker, if a lot less frequently. I'm confused as to how you arrived at your 2nd paragraph. What we are saying is that comparing ANYTHING in Ireland today with the Country of 20-50 years ago is retarded and nonsensical as they are different places. This is especiall;y true of transport demand as it correlates directly with economic activity, of which there was next to none in the glory days of rail you referred to.

If population and working numbers increase in the spatial manner of the last 15 years, yes there is shag all that can be done about it. But sure every plank on the street can tell you that. I'm amazed it needs to be explained on archiseek?!! What most here would advocate is proper integrated land use and trasport planning aimed at reducing THE NEED to travel at all, which is a derived demand. We can have 10 million on the island, full employment and 3 cars per household with feck all congestion if we did it right
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Rory W » Mon May 19, 2008 4:14 pm

BostonorBerlin wrote:Yeah I know those old plans were a complete joke, just as the transport system of decades ago was , they lacked integration, were lacking in true vision, lacked enviromental impact studies, expensive paving stones, clean modern aesthetic form... what a joke those old plans probably didnt even have an abundance of consultants working on these.
And worst of all the main train journey times on those old plans were actually shorter, which if we had them today would give us less time to sit in the carriage working on our laptops devising plans to spend billions to improve the service and time.
Iarnród Éireann admits journey times are longer http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=63096-qqqx=1.asp

Thankfully those awful days of faster train journeys are well and truly behind us as real visionaries are working on improving the lives of all those who take public transport.. just depends on when you set the clock, would that be improvements relative to the 90s,80s or 70s your looking for there.
ha ha ha I say let the same apes who oversaw development of Irelands national rail loose on Stephens Green and I dont mean the ones up in dublin zoo... add in the talk of a congestion charge and traffic diversions being put in place to prepare people for the impact of the work, before the work commences.. I think one could say the fun has well and truly started... this is going to be hilarious.


Ah such a pity your 'hilarious' japery is undermined by the fact we are talking about commuter (Dart) lines and you are taking about intercity (the big orange trains) journey times.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby ctesiphon » Mon May 19, 2008 4:23 pm

BostonorBerlin wrote:You can answer me tomorrow, i take it you both left early to beat all that traffic that suddenly appeared overnight out of the blue without any warning ...:D


When I leave, I'll 'beat the traffic' regardless of the time I go, as I cycle.

Flawed assumptions indeed.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Mon May 19, 2008 9:15 pm

jdivision wrote:1. Because the locals have consistently opposed any plans to demolish the flats there
2. They will soon be able to buy said flats themselves leading to disparate ownership and even greater difficulties in securing a concensus on the future of the site


In 1985 Swan Grove opened and relieved the most over-crowded family units from the Tom Kelly complex what I am advised remains are mostly empty nesters who had small families in the 1970's. The complex is unsuited to the needs of its occupants and I am sure that given the choice that most would prefer a new two bed apartment in a mixed tenure modern block without the stigma of the horrendous 1960's Corpo design built a decade after the brits learned from their mistakes .

The value of local authority housing in such blocks is always a fraction of those with a segment of affordable housing; even the wealthiest boroughs of London have bargains if you go former local authority try £300k for a 2 bed in Hampstead vs £800k for the private sector build 200m down the road. More worryingly the built environment suffers as consesnus is required for replacement; what developer in their right mind would try to acquire 50 resi units in a non-cpo environment? If tenant purchase goes ahead these blocks will outlive both of us.

The more I think about it; the perfect election trick would be to demolish Charlemont Gardens and the football pitch behind and replace them with 6 story lego blocks to complete in 2010 in time for the local elections provide enough housing for the 4 existing blocks; then with the freed up space build the metro entrance and when complete in time for the 2012 general election; then the site value would be unlocked in a market that is vastly improved from now to pay for all the other giveaways required to bribe the population to forget the last 5 years!

The alternative is a wrecked St Stephens Green, retention of civic visual terrorism that never delivered a return a la the subsidised tenant purchase scheme and the CBD subjected to two periods of significant construction disturbance.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Mon May 19, 2008 9:48 pm

ah PVC the locals are next year though ;)
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Mon May 19, 2008 9:51 pm

Just to be clear about this, continuing on to Charlemont wouldn't prevent them digging a station for the Green will it? So what is the advantage? They aren't putting the TBM's in at the Green are they; I assume they are going in at the other end and will be left buried at the Green end.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby jimg » Mon May 19, 2008 10:27 pm

Now try it using the originally planned route, with an interchange in or around College Green/Dame Street. You should find that the only circle which disappears is the one around Spencer Dock, and the LUAS line to the Point (currently under construction) should be nicely poised to deal with that.

No problem. Here you go: what will be built versus what you're suggesting. Far better spread in the former. Regarding the Luas extension down the docks; on-street Luas and heavy rail/fully segregated light rail are not comparable in terms of speed and capacity; as public transport nodes they are as different as bus is to Luas. All this is hypothetical anyway; we are getting the system on the left which is simply superiour by any measure. Is your objection to the plan purely on the basis of the damage to the NW corner of Stephen's Green? You're not doing your argument any favours by OTT comments like claiming we are facing "the wholesale destruction of St. Stephen's Green".
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Tue May 20, 2008 7:43 am

Now Jim, in fairness, your second picture above does not represent what I asked you to do.

I suggested that the interchange would be around the College Green/Dame Street area. This does not mean that I feel the metro should not continue to St. Stephen's Green. It would seem the best option as the line continues to the south. However, as I said in a previous post, a non-interchange metro station at St. Stephen's Green would be a much simpler affair and, especially if the line is continued to the south during the first phase of construction, would cause much less damage to the park.

And I notice that you did not post your picture of what the catchment areas would look like for a Heuston-College Green/Dame Street-Spencer Dock route. Are you still working on it?:rolleyes:
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby jimg » Tue May 20, 2008 8:04 am

How am I supposted to know what you want? The one constant message from you is that Dart 1 should run under Connolly and that the Stephens Green interchange should be moved to College Green. If you want, PM me your email address and I'll send you the SVG file and you can fiddle as much as you want and post your ideas for all they are worth; I have no interest to be honest and don't know why you think I'd like to spend my time producing renders of your fanciful notions. A non-interchange station at Stephen's Green would still involve closing that end of the park and felling trees. I suppose this could be argued would only involve the slighly less than "wholesale destruction of Stephen's Green".
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby BostonorBerlin » Tue May 20, 2008 9:24 am

ctesiphon wrote:When I leave, I'll 'beat the traffic' regardless of the time I go, as I cycle.
Flawed assumptions indeed.

evidently the reason you choose to cycle is because in fact you want to beat the chaotic transport and because public transport isnt facilatating you. Can you make a sentence out of point, way, over, head !

reddy wrote:Bit off topic....eyre square redevelopment seems to have been a right mess and I'm not fully up to speed on what happened but I'd just like to point out that I was in Galway a couple of weeks ago and we sat in Eyre square drinkin smoothies, sitting in the sun and watching hordes of people, walking, talking, busking, playing and even attempting to get as many people as possible into a phonebooth.
Admittedly it was a beautiful day and the whole place was in a resultant good mood but the square was working really well. There's no way I'd ever have even dreamed of doing similar in the old square.


yeah that was a $9million euro smoothie you had , you make it sound like you couldnt do that in the old square , just cos you were too delicate to sit on the grass and were afraid one of the winos might bother you.
1. Eyre Square 9 million euro 2 years
2. November 2007 MS Ireland has received funding from the Dormant Accounts fund to improve the lives of MS sufferers in the West of Ireland. The scheme, which has a budget of €119,800, will be used to purchase equipment that will help with physical exercise, mobility or maintaining independence and safety, either at home or at work.
Im going to give you the benefit of a modicum of intelligence and assume you can decipher what point I would have made with these two statistics.

Like a well oiled giant eco-friendly bike THE PLAN rolls on at glacial pace clearing a sleek modern clean swath through the land grinding nimbys and those without a vertical balance vision of progress into the ensuing silt,
Developer quits €600m social housing projecthttp://www.independent.ie/national-news/developer-quits-8364600m-social-housing-project-1380627.html
Luckily THE PLAN was written using a pencil so they have their copybooks and rubbers out in DCC this morning.

Please dont say this is off-topic... isnt that the whole point of integration that in small and large ways everything is connected and so requires integration.

What we need in this country is a massive economic boom of say 10-12 years so we can increase budget surplus (albeit actually a structural deficit) and invest in infrastructure...anyone seen one of those around here lately...thanks for the laughs this morning great way to start the day .:D
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Tue May 20, 2008 10:59 am

BostonorBerlin wrote:yeah that was a $9million euro smoothie you had , you make it sound like you couldnt do that in the old square , just cos you were too delicate to sit on the grass and were afraid one of the winos might bother you.
1. Eyre Square 9 million euro 2 years
2. November 2007 MS Ireland has received funding from the Dormant Accounts fund to improve the lives of MS sufferers in the West of Ireland. The scheme, which has a budget of €119,800, will be used to purchase equipment that will help with physical exercise, mobility or maintaining independence and safety, either at home or at work.
Im going to give you the benefit of a modicum of intelligence and assume you can decipher what point I would have made with these two statistics.


that we prioritise health over all else? no. That we should not spend money on the urban environment? no. That MS in the West can be dealt with cheaply? no. That perhaps Eyre Square went over budget? Ah right. That's your point is it? Good God. What a nasty unnecessary stupid way to make that point. Why not compare it to government expenditure on say, I dunno, the Bertie Bowl, E-voting, Cycle lanes, make-up for the ex-Taoiseach, RTE salaries, the Arts, Equestrianism etc etc etc etc

And also have you factored in the fiscal benefits brought to commercial interests around Eyre Square and the City in general. Nah thought not.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby johnglas » Tue May 20, 2008 11:20 am

Getting a bit tetchy here! It's important to remember that 'waste' is endemic in any society and that the private sector is as profligate (if not more so) than the public sector. Comparing the over-run on a build project with the pittance spent on deserving medical causes is (harshly) comparing apples and pears. There's just no point in doing it.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby BostonorBerlin » Tue May 20, 2008 11:59 am

alonso wrote:And also have you factored in the fiscal benefits brought to commercial interests around Eyre Square and the City in general. Nah thought not.

yeah those would be the same business who were taking Galway Corporation to court for loss of earnings. and they werent making any money before the square upgrade because its a well known fact everyone sitting on the grass in the green before the change were heading down to Dominick Street to spend their money..now I feel stupid for giving you the benefit of that modicum of intelligence,


johnglas wrote: Comparing the over-run on a build project with the pittance spent on deserving medical causes is (harshly) comparing apples and pears. There's just no point in doing it.

yeah silly me I forgot that we use the triangular euro notes (lets call that the apples euro pot) for medical services and the rectangular euro notes (the pears euro pot) for build projects and you cant use those currencies for the other..
genius alive and well and living in ireland ...:confused:

cmon get those bulldozers into St Stephens green..THE PLAN of record is THE PLAN of record until THE PLAN of record changes...i love it..
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Tue May 20, 2008 12:06 pm

BostonorBerlin wrote:yeah those would be the same business who were taking Galway Corporation to court for loss of earnings. and they werent making any money before the square upgrade because its a well known fact everyone sitting on the grass in the green before the change were heading down to Dominick Street to spend their money..now I feel stupid for giving you the benefit of that modicum of intelligence,
.


When? During construction? well duh. I know as well as anyone that this redevelopment was a fiasco. But you attacked in a dubious and nonsensical way which required to be called out.

Have you factored it in? Yes or No? Do you have the figures for turnover for the area around Eyre Square before and after to answer my question? And before you start generalising without foundation please bear in mind that retailers around SSG were all ready with their lawyers while Luas was under construction. Now they look rather silly, as will all the objectors to this scheme in 10, 20 and 50 years time on the basis of the temporary loss of 16% of the Park,
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby BostonorBerlin » Tue May 20, 2008 2:01 pm

alonso wrote:When? During construction? well duh. I know as well as anyone that this redevelopment was a fiasco. But you attacked in a dubious and nonsensical way which required to be called out. Have you factored it in? Yes or No? Do you have the figures for turnover for the area around Eyre Square before and after to answer my question? ,


alonso wrote:And also have you factored in the fiscal benefits brought to commercial interests around Eyre Square and the City in general. Nah thought not.

your the one who brought up the economic benefits of the square development for the area, My point centered on the waste of money, poor design and substandard materials, all recomendations for those involved to get stuck into St Stephens Green. Twas you who brought up the cost benefit analysis for the businesses...your point lets see your figures. So anyways heres a lesson for you 1st rule of debating ...dont ask for anothers stats if you dont have your own in order. Please provide your figures to say business is up post the development and the 9million euro represented a good roi (thats return on investment - no more benefit of the doubt for you there boyo) for the business in the square. Dont forget to factor in the loss of earnings over the 2 year development.
dubiuos non-sensical attack indeed... so you understand the concept of fiasco but cant get your head around the idea of doing things better. I suppose thats too much to ask..
you have redefined the concept of a nation of begrudgers, begrudging a citizen a voice .. gas altogether...

cmon DCC get the finger out, Im expecting an imminent announcement of when the jack hammers are starting up on Stephens Green , I want to be there smoothie in hand. Have we lined up the pre-requisite starchitect yet to design the concourse. I mean lets face it the bulk of the the actual big design jobs have gone to foreign architects... now why is that.
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