Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

[Frank Taylor]

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/property/2007/0503/1178025864163.html

Harmony of Liffey quays is key to plans for Clarence

Radical plans to redevelop the Clarence Hotel need to be viewed in the context of the Liffey quays, writes Frank McDonald , Environment Editor

MORE than 30 years ago, the London-based Architectural Review produced a special supplement on Dublin at a time when the city was being badly knocked about. It was an important reminder of what we had that was precious and a clarion call to halt needless destruction of the urban fabric.

Kenneth Browne, who edited the extensive, illustrated supplement, A Future for Dublin, published in 1974, was particularly eloquent about the Liffey Quays. "Without question," he wrote, "it is the quays which give topographical coherence to Dublin. They are the frontispiece to the city and the nation....more

[fergalr]

This proposal is just like the central bank , a great building in the wrong place.

It would look great flanking the pheonix park or some square in dublin but here it just screams for attention.

I'd disagree with you about the Central Bank. I think it's position over Temple Bar is perfect.
As for the Clarence....with Bono co-owning it, are you suprised that it "screams for attention"?

[PVC King]

You are obviously in a minority of one on the appopriateness of the siting of the Central Bank which is a really innovative building in terms of design for a cleared site and engineering techniques. Its location on the fringes of Temple Bar in what was the centre of the traditional banking distict with numerous examples of victorian pomposity was fundamentaly flawed in planning terms.

Now if it were on Grand Canal Basin and five stories higher it would really have gained international critical acclaim

[shaun]

Make that a minority of two, the way the central bank hangs and looms over Temple Bar is one of the great vita's in town.If it were down on the Grand canal basin only a fraction of the people who now pass it by would be able to glance up at it.

Must be one of the biggest buildings in town I would have thought...

[alonso]

central bank looks great from the temple bar area like along crown alley, but when viewed from a distance or a panorama of the city, it's bloody awful, especially from Lord Edward St. and High st

[PVC King]

Agreed it gives the vista from the Ha'penny up Crown Alley a very International flavour.

What caused chaos was the creation of a Plaza on Dame Street and the destruction of the streetline and stunning buildings that were demolished to make way for it.

Had it been built in the backland even deeper than its present position and the Dame Street line kept intact then I may have had a different opinion as that site is very very deep in comparison.

The Clarence site in contrast is only a slip of a plot with no real depth and the Quays are infinately more exposed to long views than Fownes Street and Cope Street

[Eccentrichard]

Sorry for those photos of Quinlan Terry's work not working.

The Richmond waterfront development can be seen here:
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/richmond_colour_large.jpg
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/richmond_colour_large2.jpg
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/richmond_colour_large3.jpg
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/richmond_colour_large4.jpg
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/richmond_colour_large5.jpg

The Baker Street developmet can be seen here:
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/baker_colour_large.jpg
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/baker_colour_large2.jpg
http://www.qftarchitects.net/commercial/photos/baker_colour_large3.jpg

Now surely something along those lines would be so much better than Foster's monstrosity, wouldn't it?

[Paul Clerkin]

Makeover plans for U2 hotel on ice as Council raises questions
The Irish Independent

U2's plans to turn the Clarence into "the most spectacular hotel in Europe" are on hold, after council officials issued a deadline to the supergroup to respond to a lengthy list of questions about the project. Dublin City Council's planning department says the status of the planning application is currently dormant, as it awaits a response from the owners, due before the end of September. Bono and The Edge, who own the hotel in trendy Temple Bar in Dublin, want to take over the five protected structure buildings adjoining the Clarence and to erect a spaceship-like glass dome 'skycatcher' building on the top in a €150m revamp. It would quadruple the size of the hotel, transforming it into the biggest in the city, visible from both north and south of the Liffey. The department has written to the hotel owners, the Clarence Partnership, requesting answers to what it describes as 18 key questions.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/makeover-plans-for-u2-hotel-on-ice-as-council-raises-questions-691360.html

[ctesiphon]

Makeover plans for U2 hotel on ice as Council raises questions
The Irish Independent

U2's plans to turn the Clarence into "the most spectacular hotel in Europe" are on hold, after council officials issued a deadline to the supergroup to respond to a lengthy list of questions about the project.

For the curious, it's Reg. Ref. 1394/07: http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=1394/07&theTabNo=2&backURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=455255>Search%20Criteria</a>%20>%20<a%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=591669%26StartIndex=31%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=455255>Search%20Criteria</a>'>Search%20Results</a>

Directive 1. Bearing in mind that Section 57 of the Planning and
Directive 2. Given that DOEHLG Architectural Heritage Guidelines
Directive 3. It is noted that the Section 57 Declarations issued by
Directive 4. The EIS sets out a number of Alternatives
Directive 5. In relation to Item No. 4 above, the applicant is
Directive 6. Bearing in mind that the proposal places great emphasis
Directive 7. The EIS and Design Statement to be augmented by
Directive 8. The applicant is requested to elaborate on the note
Directive 9. In relation to the proposed `skycatcher`/ skyroom,
Condition 10. With regard to specific conservation matters
Condition 11. Given the change in levels between the street levels
Condition 12. The EIS describes the Planning Policy background
Condition 13. The applicant is requested to submit a Project Construction
Condition 14. The EIS indicates that the air monitoring was carried
Condition 15. Applicant is requested to clarify how the plant room
Condition 16. Information on site entrances / exits is necessary
Condition 17. Given the concerns about loss of light adjacent properties,
Condition 18. Having regard to the sensitive receiving environment

[publicrealm]

For the curious, it's Reg. Ref. 1394/07: [url]http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/]

A very interesting list of questions from DCC.

I'm surprised at the need for some of them - for example it appears that the Applicant never sought to state the case for the 'exceptional circumstances' which are a prerequisite to permission for the demolition of Protected Structures - a strange omission - and also downgraded the status of some of the structures from Regional (DCC'c view) to Local.

Not looking good I would think?

[PVC King]

There was a horrible article about Bono in Metro this morning titled

'Bono is no Geldof'

Well he didn't expelled from School for having an interesting reading list.

This project is dead

[ctesiphon]

A very interesting list of questions from DCC.

I'm surprised at the need for some of them - for example it appears that the Applicant never sought to state the case for the 'exceptional circumstances' which are a prerequisite to permission for the demolition of Protected Structures - a strange omission - and also downgraded the status of some of the structures from Regional (DCC'c view) to Local.

Not looking good I would think?

Aye- iirc, there was a suspicion in some quarters that the AI questions for Lansdowne were approaching the forensic level, but here it seems the opposite is true- makes the job for DCC much easier. But surely any planning consultant worth his salt would be aware of the provisions regarding the demolition of a PS? Or did they think that DCC would just bend over backwards to accommodate them because of who they are? Surely not...

I can just see it now- "George W Bush? Got him on speed dial. Pope John Paul II? Don't even need the phone. These DCC boys are a tougher nut to crack, though..."

[publicrealm]

[quote="ctesiphon"]Aye- iirc, there was a suspicion in some quarters that the AI questions for Lansdowne were approaching the forensic level, but here it seems the opposite is true- makes the job for DCC much easier. But surely any planning consultant worth his salt would be aware of the provisions regarding the demolition of a PS? Or did they think that DCC would just bend over backwards to accommodate them because of who they are? Surely not...
QUOTE]

Yes - I'm familiar with the RFI on Lansdowne - was very impressed at the time at how DCC grasped the project's complexity and identified the right questions. But that application had been very carefully crafted and had foreseen all the likely issues and tried to head them off. It even advanced the 'exceptional circumstances' argument for the demolition of No. 70 Shelbourne Road - which was not a Protected Structure - because the locam Members (such an appropriate word!!) were threatening to list it to scupper the project.

Maybe there was a bit of a 'Mainland' influence in the Clarence application (I don't know who handled the application - so no offence iontended to colleagues)?

[ctesiphon]

Maybe there was a bit of a 'Mainland' influence in the Clarence application?

Key phrases to watch for:
Eire;
Planning consent;
Listed building.

*le sigh*

CMB Design Group Architects is the name on the DCC page linked above.

[corcaighboy]

Whatever about the merits of the design, I can't see why Michael Smith has to have a poke at U2. His remark, highlighted below, sums up his arrogance to me. Is he saying that musicians are good at nothing else bar making music? And that only he and like-minded individuals are qualified to comment on anything relating to architecture? Was just a very cheap shot in my view.

U2 €65m Clarence plan ‘execrable’
By Paul Kelly Irish Examiner
HERITAGE experts have dubbed €65 million plans by rock band U2 to revamp one of Dublin’s most exclusive hotels as “execrable”.

Michael Smith, the former chairman of heritage body An Taisce, wants Dublin City Council to turn down U2’s plans for the boutique Clarence Hotel in the city.

According to architects’ magazine Building Design, Mr Smith is unhappy about the plans as they include the a creation of a futuristic “sky catcher” designed to draw light into the base of the hotel, and the demolition of nearby Georgian buildings in the Liffey Quays area.

“These buildings are among the most distinguished quay-front buildings in the city; in an era of aspirant sustainability, their proposed destruction, particularly at the hands of rock musicians and their friends, is execrable.

“The days of grateful fawnings over international — or in this case intergalactic — architecture on Dublin’s landmark sites should be over,” he said in the letter to the council.

Renowned British architect Norman Foster revealed proposals at the beginning of the year to create a “new landmark” for Dublin by redeveloping and extending the hotel, which is owned by Bono and the Edge.

Launching it in January, Foster said the project had a “sympathetic civic presence”.

But Mr Smith said: “Foster & Partners’ website asserts they ‘design by challenging — by asking the right questions’.

“In this case, the first question they should have asked was how to integrate rather than destroy the existing buildings.”

An Taisce, as well as the Irish Georgian Society, have formally objected to the U2 development, arguing it would be better placed in the docklands.

An Taisce planning officer Kevin Duff has called on the council to implement a development framework for the Liffey Quays area in the wake of other schemes there.

The U2 project is now on hold until the applicant answers a list of questions, the city council said, but hotel bosses insisted the queries were routine.

[Rory W]

“The days of grateful fawnings over international — or in this case intergalactic — architecture on Dublin’s landmark sites should be over,” he said in the letter to the council.

With all those landmarks that have been built here by the glitterati of the Architecture world???:confused:

[phil]

Whatever about the merits of the design, I can't see why Michael Smith has to have a poke at U2. His remark, highlighted below, sums up his arrogance to me. Is he saying that musicians are good at nothing else bar making music? And that only he and like-minded individuals are qualified to comment on anything relating to architecture? Was just a very cheap shot in my view.

I remember this being discussed earlier in this thread and PVC King and GrahamH reckoned that he said such stuff in order to get media attention, which I think was probably a good point. However, when taken at face value, It was a ridiculous comment for him to make none-the-less.

See posts 45 to 49.

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5824&page=2

[corcaighboy]

Incidentally, this is a Singapore version of the Skycatcher. It is the new Singapore High Court (opened around 18 months ago). Thought it might be of interest to readers of this thread.

[GrahamH]

The current charming vista from O'Connell Bridge that will be so compromised by the current proposal. I also hadn't realised till recently that it's proposed to completely lop off and build up the entire enchanting roofscape of the adjoining Printing Works!



Admittedly the Civic Offices' embellishment of the current bulk of the Clarence isn't exactly welcome, but otherwise the scene is the essence of Dublin.

[Paul Clerkin]

Clarence Hotel 'may be sold' if plans not approved
The Irish Times

Failure to get approval for the ambitious scheme to redevelop and extend Dublin's Clarence Hotel could lead to its owners - including U2's Bono and The Edge - selling the property, city planners have been warned. In a detailed response to the planners' request for further information on the €150 million plan, architects Foster + Partners say the alternative would "most likely be a down-market budget hotel or . . . the closing of a long-established Dublin landmark business". Last March, the planners requested detailed additional information on the proposed development, including what "exceptional circumstances" would justify the demolition of all but the quayfront facades of the hotel and five adjoining buildings, which are all protected structures. In their response, the architects say the proposed redevelopment is necessary if the Clarence is to become "a world hotel that fits into the highest echelon of this genre, to be mentioned in the same breath as the Burj Al Arab in Dubai or Raffles Hotel in Singapore".

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1017/1192565608847.html

[igy]

Clarence Hotel 'may be sold' if plans not approved
The Irish Times

Failure to get approval for the ambitious scheme to redevelop and extend Dublin's Clarence Hotel could lead to its owners - including U2's Bono and The Edge - selling the property, city planners have been warned.

Oh noes!

Seriously, is this actually a threat?

[ctesiphon]

Shag off down the docks and give the city an early christmas present, fellas. Go on, I dare you.

The whole 'world hotel' nonsense is so ridiculous as to almost defy mockery. There's no shame in being high quality regional- if anything, I suspect many tourists would prefer a splash of local colour rather than the bland, identikit internationalismus of Big Norm. So sell it to someone who understands at least that much, and be done with it. We'll all be happpier that way.

Seriously, is this actually a threat?

If only it was a promise.

[notjim]

So what happens if they do knock down the "late" Georgians and the hotel isn't mentioned in the same breath as raffles, do we get to threaten them? How many times does Clarence and Raffles have to get mentioned in the same breath to justify the over-development of the site. Notice also that their foyer is being promoted as a convenient short cut between temple bar and the quays, will everyone be allowed to use this short cut or just people who stay in Raffles and the Burj Al Arab.

[d_d_dallas]

since when is it the planner's job to mitigate risk to a purely speculative development?

[kefu]

Whatever miniscule support I may have had for this project has been completely lost in this Burj/Raffles nonsense. The Clarence is already a terrific hotel and if they can't attract sufficient business, then they are simply running it badly.
This would have been akin to the Shelbourne redevelopment demolishing everything but the facade facing St Stephen's Green. Instead, the Shelbourne project rebuilt the dated rooms and improved upon the already magnificent bar and restaurant rooms.
Give me the Shelbourne over the Burj al Arab any day.