One Berkley court -132m Tower

Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby paul h » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:34 pm

archipig wrote:................... Whats the point of having an ice rink?


The same could be said for any activity, whats the point in a park or football field?
Really what will knocking off a few floors really achieve?? Keep anti high rise brigade happy?
Honestly i think having highrise buildings, 30+floors, properly situated properly served with transport,blah blah blah..... do add an air of excitement to a city(especially at night),they give it an edge if you will!


I really think this is a fantastic project on a large parcel of land perfectly able to soak up the density
Mass transit on your doorstep, it really could not be better.
Most of Dunnes letter made complete sense

With the new landsdowne under way in ten years this could become another exciting part of the city, Ballsbridge residents, as powerfull and connected as they are, can take one for the team

What a way to expand the city centre, a stones throw from o, connell st (a mile and a half or so) and less than a mile from the Point i think.

P.S can this be merged with the original thread 'Dunne versus the nimbys'
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby sw101 » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:41 pm

why merge them? one thread to discuss the architecture and urban design and the other to follow the ongoing political wrangling, planning mess and local uproar seems reasonable.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby paul h » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:06 pm

Yea maybe....... but its same topic - their will be no new architecture and urban design because of the local uproar etc. The two are inexplicably linked
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Re: Dunne vs the nimbys

Postby Gianlorenzo » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:16 pm

wearnicehats wrote:37 storeys for ballsbridge. Locals already forming a mob with burning torches and a ducking stool

Looked a bit bland on the telly but will call in tomorrow and have a closer look - on public display in Berkeley Court until Sunday.


No, the 'local mob' should listen to you. How dare they object!!!! The cheek of them.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby sw101 » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:22 pm

hardly inexplicable.

no point creating one confused thread from two separate topics. let it go.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jamesmcbennett » Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:05 am

theres a video documentary on mountbrook homes website,

i like the project...
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Keen » Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:39 am

Jeez i really like this project! :)
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Morlan » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:15 am

Video here: http://video.mountbrook.ie/video/

Image

The video is very well put together. There is an emphasis on Dublin's sprawl and low density.. But the fact remains, the residents of Ballsbridge and the City Council will blow this development out of the water. Ballsbridge will receive more Gated 5 storey apartments.

The amount of proposals for high density in suitable areas over the past 5 years is astonishing. Many developers have been (and are still) eager to build high density in Dublin City. The Tiger is still going, but high density has been continually suppressed by certain heads in the government departments.

DDDA's ludicrous policy of an average 6 storeys max in the Docklands has ruined any possibility of Dublin having a high density CBD to rival other EU cities. It seems that vast low density business parks and motorway expansions return a bigger profit in the short term.

Sandyford and Tallaght seem to be less restricted in relation to density. They both hold on average higher densities than the Docklands. This is why I fully support high densities in these satellite towns. They will make an example and prove to Dublin City that high density is the only way forward.

Meanwhile, Dublin holds the title as Europe's lowest density capital city.. and one of the richest.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:25 am

archipig wrote:I quite like this, but I still think it could be about 10 storeys shorter. Whats the point of having an ice rink?


the effect of 37 storeys is relatively little compared to 27 storeys. from far away the effect is minor and the close up effect is lessened by perspective

there's a sort of reflecting pool in the scheme that "could" be turned into an ice rink at christmas for example

I was wondering how the Irish Times would respond to Dunne's letter and yesterday I got my answer - did you see the picture on the front page. Classic! And the Nimby of the Year award goes to....
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby hutton » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:38 am

[quote="Morlan"]Ballsbridge is no place for 37 storeys. Locals will rightfully object and it will be finally reduced to 16 storeys at the most. Seán Dunne will still make a profit - that's why he proposed 37 storeys in the first place.

There's still a few spots left in Sandyford or Tallaght for projects like this. We can all assume that the Docklands is a no-go area for highrise at the moment.

It's a damn shame. Dublin is following in London's & Bimingham's footsteps]

Agreed. The recent LAP which covered this site, and would have raised heights (but not to Dunne's levels), has already been shot down.

This is not a designated area for high rise - there is already a shit-load of density on this site by the existing precedents. To permit higher rise here would send out all the wrong signals. There is also the danger of repeating the mistakes of the 60s which saw the CBD move from to Ballsbridge while the city-centre died (see Destruction of Dublin for more).

As to "Dunne v Nimbys", I note that some months ago Dunne himself wasn't too slow in filing an objection for a 6/7 floor scheme that was proposed for Ailsbury Road - which is coincidentally where he lives (and obviously not a million miles away from his site)...What's good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander, I would have thought.

So all in all, just because some developer who is himself a nimby paid too much for a site and has his arse out the window as a result, does it mean that the city should bend and permit an otherwise unsuitable scheme? Methinks not...
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby notjim » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:13 pm

A good week for archiseek.com publicity-wise! Quotes in the Post:

Sunday Business Post 2 Sept
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=26312-qqqx=1.asp

Bland or ballsy?
02 September 2007 By Ian Kehoe
Sean Dunne’s planned 37storey tower in Ballsbridge has received mixed reviews.

Some users of Archiseek.com, a popular architecture website, described it as bland, and suggested it resembled a building that would have served as a typical corporate headquarters in the United States in the 1980s.

‘‘This is too high for the site; buildings of this size should be confined solely to the docklands,” wrote one user.

Others were more positive. ‘‘The angles are interesting without being fiddly, the scale is impressive, and the location seems ideal for a large tower, standing by those big wide streets at the corner of a huge site, near the city, by the business district, rising up out a streetscape of handsome terraces,” said one contributor.

‘‘Fair play to Dunne,” said another. ‘‘It’s a ballsy move.

‘‘It’s a very well-thought-out venture that puts the ball firmly in DCC’s [Dublin City Council] court.”
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby ake » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:50 pm

Morlan wrote:Video here: http://video.mountbrook.ie/video/

DDDA's ludicrous policy of 6 storeys max in the Docklands has ruined any possibility of Dublin having a high density CBD to rival other EU cities. It seems that vast low density business parks and motorway expansions return a bigger profit in the short term.


What is the precise explanation for this? I mean, why is lower density more profitable to business? (For anyone who thinks that local people or others can 'shoot down' projects in the face of big business interests just take a look around at Rossport or Tara.) Does high density devalue the market or something like that?
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby phil » Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:07 pm

Thanks for posting the video Morlan. The part about permeability interested me the most. In reality though is this actually going to be public space or is it going to be another docklands style quasi-private space masquerading as public space?

Also, does anyone know what percentage is to be given over as social and affordable housing? This is a genuine question, not trying to make any assumptions, but would actually like to know.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby cubix » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:17 pm

I think is looks fantastic, best out of the big four imo,out of interest does anyone have a render of Ray Grehans proposal,its a 15 storey luxury tower close to this site.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby ElArqui » Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:56 pm

Anything that is being presented as better because it is high density, should also include benefits for the community. There should be a better use of public spaces, there should be an improvement in public services, eg shopping, parking, creches, etc.
Otherwise what is the point of high density?
I understand that loads of services of this kind will be provided with the development (although nothing has been mentioned about parking, Could it do something to help parking around matches at Landsdowne rd?). Anyway, if these are quality services, I don´t care if it looks like diamond, or a rugby ball o a milk carton. If it threads into the existing city and improves it, I like it!
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Frodo » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:35 pm

where is a designated area for tall buildings in Dublin???

Hope Sean Dunne gets this one made.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Morlan » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:07 pm

Frodo wrote:where is a designated area for tall buildings in Dublin???


There isn't really any designated area.

There are random developments in Dublin that have been permitted to build a one-off "landmark" tower, namely: U2 Tower (32), Point Tower (32), Hueston Gate (32). Sandyford Tower (24).
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby ctesiphon » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:39 pm

phil wrote:Also, does anyone know what percentage is to be given over as social and affordable housing? This is a genuine question, not trying to make any assumptions, but would actually like to know.

I heard Sean Dunne on the radio the other day - Morning Ireland, maybe? - saying that he had other sites in the area (I think he referred to the Electoral Areas or Wards?) where the S&A Housing would be provided. So it appears it won't be on the Berkeley Court site.

I wonder what would happen if DCC said 'You can have your tower, but the 20% must be on site'? :)
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby sw101 » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:55 pm

anne collins and her ilk would have simultaneous heart failure.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby phil » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:46 am

ctesiphon wrote:I heard Sean Dunne on the radio the other day - Morning Ireland, maybe? - saying that he had other sites in the area (I think he referred to the Electoral Areas or Wards?) where the S&A Housing would be provided. So it appears it won't be on the Berkeley Court site.

I wonder what would happen if DCC said 'You can have your tower, but the 20% must be on site'? :)


thanks Ctesiphon. It struck me as I watched that 'Gates are evil' propaganda video. Particularly the part about the creche facility. He seems to be talking about opening up the site for the public and creating a diverse new urban area, getting away from a gated development. The question is who is he opening the site up for? If he is truly interested in diversity it should promote social mixing as well? After all, it is possible to have a completely exclusive and segregated urban area without any gates.

I sometimes think that discussion regarding density and high-rise overshadows (excuse the pun) other hugely important issues in these debates.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:25 am

He's promised to provide the s&a housing within the electoral ward and bought a site in the docklands in recent weeks, I presume for it.
He says he'll spend a further e31 million on other community initiatives in the area, as well as the s&a housing he'll have to provide. Included in that is subsidised creche spaces (e1 an hour) for low income families within the Jurys Berkeley Court site
http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=26313-qqqx=1.asp


As a general reply to some of the posters asking about public access to the site, there'll have to be full access to most of it because there'll be a shopping centre. They'll need full public access in order to get the footfall to justify the rents. Some of the site however, as stated in Mountbrook's video, will not be publicly accessible meaning the apartment blocks and the offices I assume.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby phil » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:43 am

jdivision wrote:He's promised to provide the s&a housing within the electoral ward and bought a site in the docklands for it.
He says he'll spend a further e31 million on other community initiatives in the area, as well as the s&a housing he'll have to provide.


So none on site. Thanks for reply JDivision.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:50 am

ctesiphon wrote:
I wonder what would happen if DCC said 'You can have your tower, but the 20% must be on site'? :)

That won't happen because eligible purchasers wouldn't be able to afford them. Hopefully they'll get more than the frankly disgraceful e500,000 they accepted in lieu of s&a housing at the eventual Chester Beatty library redevelopment on Shrewsbury Rd.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby phil » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:56 pm

Dublin City Council Planning Conference - Combating Urban Sprawl & Successful Apartment Living

Interesting (if not a little pricey) sounding conference on urban sprawl and higher densities being organised by Dublin City Council for the 17th of September in Croke Park. Definitely seems of relevance to this thread, so thought I would post it here.

link here
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby paul h » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:24 pm

I just thought i'd reproduce the Kevin Myers article that Dunne mentions in his letter,
because he is spot on with this ................plus i think he was reading my mind:D
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-dublin-of-ulysses-is-dead-up-with-brave-dunnes-high-rise-772874.html

The Dublin of Ulysses is dead: up with brave Dunne's high rise

IRISH INDEPENDENT
By Kevin Myers
Tuesday June 26 2007


WHAT is the great, unspoken hope that fills so many Dublin hearts? What ambition unites lefties, vegans, city councillors, bankers, accountants, surgeons, barristers, street sweepers, GAA officials and left-handed lesbians?


It is that Sean Dunne, the property developer who paid three hundred zillion Kruger Rand for Jury's Hotel in Ballsbridge and who wants to build a complex of high towers there, fails totally. Well, I hope he succeeds.

I don't know the fine detail of his plans and so won't comment on them, but I do know that Dublin has run out of room. The city cannot continue to expand west until it reaches the Shannon. Commuters notionally living on the outskirts of the city are already having to travel up to two hours to work each way. This is neither sustainable nor civilised.

But most of all, there is absolutely no reason why the ludicrously inflated property prices of Dublin 4 and 6 should continue to be sustained by the artificial shortages created by state limitations on vertical development.

On the other hand, no one likes property developers. They simply buy some land and then sell it on for five times the price they paid for it. We could all do that, couldn't we? Well, we could if we could: and the "if" there is about the same size as the same word in the sentence: "If Chad put a hippopotamus on the moon."

The truth is that most of us can't think like property developers. Most men, it is said, cannot multitask, but I'd guess property developers do. Because there are so many dimensions to developing land: financial, legal, political, engineering, artistic, architectural, and perhaps most of all, temporal.

For property developers have to possess an acute sense of time: they must imagine what is possible over what period, and what other, simultaneous events might affect the value of their investment. Most of all, property developers either have to have bottomless reserves of courage, or simply be unacquainted with the meaning of fear. I do not know Sean Dunne, so I do not know whether he is either brave or fearless, but the outcome is the same. Almost alone, he is taking on the most powerful and influential lobby in Ireland: L'Arrondisement Pont de Balle.

In doing this, he is confronting a central truth: the Dublin of Ulysses is dead. That cosy city of the Bloomsday peregrination exists only in the memory of the Joycean pilgrims: the customers in the pubs they so reverentially visit speak Ukrainian and have never heard of Joyce.

Dublin is no longer a city with a single ethos, sustained by a homogenous group memory, populated by universally known names: Maureen Potter, Brendan Grace, Noel Purcell, Brendan Behan et alia. Those days are gone for ever. The authentic Cockney is just about extinct and the true Dub is similarly destined.

It is a difficult concept to swallow, but swallow it we must. We cannot bottle the new Dublin in the geography of the old Dublin. It is not possible, and it is certainly not moral. For by attempting to do that, we are creating intolerable commuting problems for the people who, though staffing the city centre's economy, have to live in some hideous, characterless Bantustan, two counties away.

The only solution is to build up, which is where Sean Dunne wants to hoist Dublin 4. There is nowhere else to go.

Now, he is a brave man to joust with the vested interests of Dublin 4, which, when known as Pembroke Ward, was a privileged, self-governing entity, whose servants - rather obligingly - lived elsewhere, in tenement townships.

Those instincts of lordly Pembrokian autonomy still linger on in the region's atoms, and have been bestirred into a molecular frenzy by Sean Dunne's development proposals for the Jury's site. And though this campaign is entirely self-serving, it has of course, donned the mantle of environmentalist concern.

Yet bizarrely, Ballsbridge's campaign to protect its insane property values has won allies across the city.

Why? There are, I suspect, two main reasons.

The first is a nostalgia for a fictional Dublin, one that subsists, largely on life-support, in city councillor imaginations. The second is perhaps the last surviving relic of that old Dublin, namely small-minded begrudgery.

A lot of people bitterly resent a property developer who has daring, courage, vision and enterprise. So, put those latter qualities together in the begrudgeryblender, and out comes the word "greed", the morally satisfying denunciation which trips with equal ease from the lips of both the sleek Ballsbridgian barrister protecting the value of his house, and the gaunt, socialist pamphleteer with his gluepot, spouting Marxist gibberish.

Sean Dunne has shown the way to the future. Dublin, including Ballsbridge, will go up. That is certain. The only question is when. Sorry, that is not the only question.

The other one is this: when will the IRFU abandon its utterly sentimental and financially insane attachment to Lansdowne Road? Because when those acres are liberated for useful, year-round economic activity, Dublin 4 will finally expand upwards.

I just hope that happens before Sean Dunne goes bust.
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