One Berkley court -132m Tower

Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:44 pm

mickletterfrack wrote:you and a few others knocking around this site need to get their heads out of the trough.


So now we know what Mick does for a living. Apparently, he's a physician.

For what it's worth, Mick, I thought you had some interesting things to say re Letterfrack, even if couched in some inflammatory, juvenile language. However, re the above quote, someone honestly trying to engage others in a debate on the merits or otherwise of a development proposal would do well not to fling around indiscriminate insults if they want those others to respond to the points raised.

So I can only assume you're here to cause trouble. In which case, I'll echo the previous sentiment: Do Not Feed The Troll.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jimg » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:27 pm

Anyway, back to the merit or otherwise of the proposal itself. What, besides the height of the tower, are the specific criticisms of this scheme? If the tower aspect was scaled back a bit, would that satisfy the detractors?

It the scheme lives up to the video, then surely this would be far far superior to anything built on that scale in Dublin in recent years. It ticks all the boxes:
  • It returns access and useful right of way to the public. As far as I know, besides Wallace's Italian Quarter, this is unprecendented.
  • It provides high density residential accomodation in one of the most sparsely populated inner suburbs of Dublin. Ballsbridge, outside of office hours and match days, is depressingly bleak and empty.
  • It's a mixed development - combining residential, commercial, retail and cultural features. The retail and cultural facilities are significant; significantly more than the usual ground level Spar provided by developers.
  • The quality of the residential accomodation seems high with an emphasis on larger "family sized" units. The finish and design seem high spec.
  • It's effectively next door to a DART station providing easy access to public transport.
  • The buildings are "green" in the sense of being highly insulated.

It reminds me a bit of the Barbican without the brutalist appearance in the emphasis on attempting to create a "complete" community. This is a daring departure for development in Dublin; a big step up as far as I'm concerned. Even if you find the height aspect offensive (I don't), surely all of the other aspects are to be admired? The alternative, which presumably would be "suitable for Ballsbridge" is just too depressing to contemplate - a "mixed development" comprising another Sweepstakes apartment development, a couple of copies of the Iona building and another Herbert Park Hotel in a large gated complex.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby alonso » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:12 pm

jimg, I couldn't agree more. It hasn't a feckin chance then has it!

Your first point is extremely important and cannot possibly be overestimated. We have spent the entire boom years gating dwellings, cutting down on the public realm, neglecting community and one of the grand purposes of planning which is to foster a sense of place. New streets can have an incredible effect on districts - not new roads, new streets. Places. That's what attracts me most to this proposal. btw it's also my favourite element of the DLR Golf CLub development, in that it opens a gated elite sporting facility to the people, and will provide open space rather than deny it. However people hate permeability - society has been engineered to crave a fortress. From Le C's machines for living, we now have mono-class pods and cells for living in. The cul-de-sac and the keypad gate have destroyed so many potential linkages and opportunities for random interactions. If the remaining large sites, such as golf courses, Docklands, Guinness, Disused barracks etc, are developed in the same manner as Mountbrook have proposed here, public space wise, we'll have somewhere close to a great city.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby lostexpectation » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:19 am

what was on the triangle site before the hotels? somebody mentioned georgian stuff and a botanic gardens? how where they knocked? and how did all those ugly 25year buildings get put up in the first place?
just out of historical interest ?

Im surprised that he building is so slim in the picture on the front page of this thread

so if a person says I don't want a 37 storey building 27 stories is enough are they still anti-highrise?

wher'd they get the data for the urban sprawl animation in the video?

there is alot of unessceary green spin in their prmo it really looks like they are trying to hard,

we're going to throw some plants on the roofs here and there we weren't doing anything with them anyway...

the space will still be private. etc

ramming in as many buzzwords as possible, slow food restaurants! ffs
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:37 am

It was the Botanic Gardens for Trinity College. There are still some trees there. I thought the slow food thing was funny too. It's not like it'll be put in the lease that that's the only thing they can serve
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby old man troy » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:07 am

[quote="

ramming in as many buzzwords as possible, slow food restaurants! ffs[/QUOTE"]

For info:

[quote]Slow Food was founded in Italy 1986 by the eminent Italian food critic and journalist Carlo Petrini. The international movement was launched in Paris in 1989.

Through education, and what Petrini termed the eco-gastronomic intervention, Slow seeks to conserve endangered seed, breed, cultivar, and process. This scenario is exemplified in the following anecdote: up at the top of a Tuscan valley, there are only two eighty-year old men remaining who know how to make the local sausage, a delicacy based upon a similarly endangered breed of a hardy little red cow. The Slow intervention involves the enlistment of young people to learn the sausage-making technique]


Laudible but can you see more than one of these restaurants taking off in Ballsbridge, let alone a few in the same development. This is misinterpretation for the sake of marketing. Slow food, I can actually see that phrase becoming as popular as 'mixed use development', 'urban dentistry', etc. etc. etc. jargon.. jargon...jargon..:cool:
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby herrkev » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:38 am

Alonso,
I have to raise a point regarding redevloping golf coures. Its a worrying trend in my opinion to see so many old, established courses being sold up and concreted over. Yes, these places may be private areas that restrict permeability, but they are also places where greenery flourishes in urban settings. As a golfer myself, and with a planning interest, I loathe the idea of these beautiful settings being destroyed for housing. The opinion seems to be that a greenfield site will be supplied to build a new course. But what about the 200-year old trees? Can they be replicated? There is scope to retain these areas within urban boundaries. We can still build a compact, permeable city without having to fill in great courses.

OMT,
Nice research on the slow food movement, but i argee, its meaning will be distorted, probably to mean having a four-hour lunch. I am personally against planners trying to forcefully create something like this, its too, how shall I put it, "creative" for me, get my drift?

As for One Berkeley Court? Its the best thing that could happen to the place. Like everything else we protest about in this country - smoking ban, par exemple - we'll take no notice of it once its in place. The benefits, as pointed out by jimg, are obvious and for me can only have a positive effect on Ballsbridge.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:27 pm

herrkev, just in case, older trees are generally protected as part of any redevelopment. A tree plan has to be submitted and measures taken to protect them.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby herrkev » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:38 pm

that I understand, my point was they cant be replicated on new, greenfield golf course developments unless transplanted at great expense.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby alonso » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:38 pm

i take your point herrkev, but if the older trees are preserved (not always i admit), a new parkland is opened to the general public, and a new golf course and all the landscaping that that entails, is that not more desirable than a golf course in suburbia acting as a pseudo traffic island? btw I'm not advocating concreting over every golf course within 10 miles of the spire, but they are certainly in the top few uses that could be targetted after all the brownfield sites have been developed
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby herrkev » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:14 pm

I wouldn't expect you to advocate such a thing alonso, and I accept that there may be a case for redevelopment if an obvious and worsening bottleneck to development was occuring. I dont want to contuinue this point much longer, its a bit off-topic. all i'll say is its very difficult to replicate the setting of a long-established course, and people shouldn't be so hasty to go about redeveloping them. And let's be honest, most of the space would be covered with houses, with some open space, but certainly much less than there was. Ireland has a booming golfing industry but tearing up older courses will not help it in any way. I wont say any more on the matter, unless a new thread appears!
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jimg » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:08 am

So, to summarize the reasons for disliking this plan: a) the developer is going to make money b) there's too much trendy jargon in the pitch and c) the slow food movement is misrepresented in presentation. Anything else?
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby d_d_dallas » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:40 am

another one: Ballsbridge is a quiet leafy typically Irish local friendly village and this would destroy that (as opposed to 45 years of prefab concrete offices).
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:42 am

Well it hasn't been mentioned yet, but the smarmy, smug mug of the project architect Ulrik Raysse pictured in the Irish Times is surely another logical reason to dismiss this proposal.

But on a more serious note, are any architects out there offended by this comment? Or is there real truth to it?

Ulrik Raysse wrote:"Cities shouldn't be museums. Ireland, and especially Dublin, is very strong on literature, poetry, music and theatre. But where is the excellence in architecture? What we're trying to do is to raise the bar here, by daring to create a place that's unique."


On which subject:
Image
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:53 am

I think there's some truth in it. As previous threads have discussed there aren't too many buildings from the boom years that make you go wow.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby notjim » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:05 am

ctesiphon wrote:But on a more serious note, are any architects out there offended by this comment? Or is there real truth to it?

"Cities shouldn't be museums. Ireland, and especially Dublin, is very strong on literature, poetry, music and theatre. But where is the excellence in architecture? What we're trying to do is to raise the bar here, by daring to create a place that's unique."


Is it the "especially Dublin" part you think is offensive?
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby old man troy » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:07 am

Don't get me wrong, im all for this development, I dont see the prob with a well designed, high density, mixed use, walkable, city centre development. I was just having a rant about the excessive use of jargon. Also I don't have a problem with SD making a few pound, sure you would hardly expect him to do it for nothing. I just get the feeling that in the current economic climate and with the price paid for the land it does become an issue and there is an arguement that perhaps they are trying to squeeze too much out of the project. Nonetheles it is an ambitious well thought out project and taking both sides of the arguement into account it would get my vote. Problem is I dont think the planners will have the balls to go for it in the face of angry D4 NIMBY's, these are influential NIMBY'S. They even seem to have swayed Mr. McDonald who sang the praises of the development in yesterdays Irish Times but instead of throwing his weight behind it backtracked.

If it is to have any chance of winning approval from Dublin City Council's planners - and ultimately, An Bord Pleanála - it will have to be substantially scaled down, with the tower and other buildings reduced in height proportionately. F McDonald


Maybe this is an innocent question, but do you think the architects have a scaled down version of the project ready to go as they were fully aware prior to making the proposal that it would be scaled down?:confused:
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:25 am

old man troy wrote:
Maybe this is an innocent question, but do you think the architects have a scaled down version of the project ready to go as they were fully aware prior to making the proposal that it would be scaled down?:confused:


very possibly in sketch form - the number crunching will definitely have been done at the very least.

They will know exactly the financially viable cut off point
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Carrigaline » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:46 am

d_d_dallas wrote:another one: Ballsbridge is a quiet leafy typically Irish local friendly village and this would destroy that (as opposed to 45 years of prefab concrete offices).

Yeah, a cosy, comfortable little village that enriches the life of a very few while the many are forced into debt-slavery in order to afford a home two hours away from work.

I'd love to know what percentage of those working in the AIB centre in Ballsbridge can actually afford to live close to work.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:58 am

notjim wrote:Is it the "especially Dublin" part you think is offensive?


Well I'm not an architect, but if I was, I think I'd be bothered by the comment, or at the very least by the 'we know better than you do' smug tone of the quote. Really, I think the quality of the architecture is quite ordinary, and falls quite short of the best work of that practice.

*** *** ***

As a little aside - a non-pictorial 'How well do you know Dublin?', if you like - does anyone know when Henning Larsen was previously involved in Dublin? To the best of my knowledge, there was only one previous occasion, but I'm open to correction on that. (No prizes, just a a bit of fun.)
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby mickletterfrack » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:34 pm

For some reason architects in Ireland can only take direction from Belfield or Tara St so maybe its worth emphasising some points one of their messiahs has raised ....
FrankMcD - IT wrote:"I didn't know much about Ireland then, except that it had blossomed a lot while Denmark was growing more gradually," he says. "But I think Dublin is quite like Copenhagen. Both are historical cities with centres that haven't been destroyed." This gave him a "strong understanding of scale", pointing to the need to be "bold and at the same time humble" in designing for Ballsbridge. The curved street running parallel with Lansdowne Road would also be lined with "high-end" shops, presumably to confirm Ballsbridge as the "new Knightsbridge".
But there aren't any 37-storey towers in Knightsbridge. It is also highly improbable that Henning Larsen Architects would be allowed to build anything like this in Copenhagen. Their Nordea office complex is almost domestic in scale, while the canopied opera house in its harbour is a more bulbous version of Jean Nouvel's in Lucerne. .


Ok so basically this is “a humble structure which will not destroy the historical aspects of the area , designed by an architect who wouldn’t be allowed to build this structure in his own capital city ( Copenhagen! - cos its some backward un-progressive design desert, one can only assume) for a developer who wants to make the area look like a fashionable district of London even though that area doesn’t in fact have any similar 37 story residential towers …Well that clears up my confusion and cynicism.

As for
ctesiphon wrote: For what it's worth, Mick, I thought you had some interesting things to say re Letterfrack, even if couched in some inflammatory, juvenile language. However, re the above quote, someone honestly trying to engage others in a debate on the merits or otherwise of a development proposal would do well not to fling around indiscriminate insults if they want those others to respond to the points raised.
So I can only assume you're here to cause trouble. In which case, I'll echo the previous sentiment: Do Not Feed The Troll.

Obviously the irony of accusing me of juvenile language and then signing off in the ridiculous manner (troll.. ) in which you did is lost on you . Sometimes I really think they should test or license people before letting them online…I will stick by my earlier analogy (others knocking around this site need to get their heads out of the trough) irrespective of how offensive you may find it, lucky for that poor sod George Orwell that he is already dead, otherwise I can only assume you would have had a fatwah out on him for Animal Farm !
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby AndrewP » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:34 pm

Carrigaline wrote:Yeah, a cosy, comfortable little village that enriches the life of a very few while the many are forced into debt-slavery in order to afford a home two hours away from work.

I'd love to know what percentage of those working in the AIB centre in Ballsbridge can actually afford to live close to work.


Couldn't agree more.
Fact is, the lovely semi-d-filled inner suburbs are past their sell-by date in a city on its way to having a "metro area" population of 2 million. They're a bad use of land, they're part of the reason Dublin's a sprawling mess. How big would the public debate be if this proposal was for, say Inchicore or Cabra? And I doubt very much the debate would be raging if the tower wasn't so big.
Of course one high-rise residential scheme isn't going to solve our low-density problem, but it's the general direction we should be going in. Seems to me the natural place to start is in a wealthy central location where the cost of land is at a premium!
Yet the debate is all about a developer's gall in wanting to make a profit on the pricey land he just bought. Well... duh.
I say let's get over this high rise-phobia, stop pandering to the NIMBYS blessed to be living in their precious patch of D4 and start complaining about the latest tract of farmland to fall to suburbia instead.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:34 pm

micklittleprick wrote:!


I was going to write something but then I realised that nothing would sum it up better.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Rory W » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:35 pm

I was going to respond to him but words literally failed me
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby sw101 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:05 pm

mickletterfrack wrote: Sometimes I really think they should test or license people before letting them online…


Couldn't agree more.

F-
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