Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby requ » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:31 pm

Nice one Donnchadha Gallagher!!
requ
Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:51 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:18 am

Diageo to make a €153m investment in James's Gate

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 96455.html

Really good news for the street and The Liberties. The planning gain that can be gained from this should now be considered by DCC.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:41 pm

Potentially yes, but that published image looks like a rural Co-op
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Punchbowl » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:31 am

What's the rory with the new Guinness Brew-house?

I have heard that part of their overall plan is to move the majority of brewing facilities to the north side of James St and thereby free up the area around the Storehouse for civic/residential/commercial use.

I'm a traditionalist, and I live in the area (Echlin St) and love nothing more than throwing my windows open and filling my flat with the smells of the brewery. I'm worried that this will be a thing of the past if brewing is moved to the Quays. Also that unique feeling you get walking down James and Thomas streets, flanked on each side by this intimidating sense of industry will be lost forever if they focus on the northen end
Punchbowl
Member
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:22 pm
Location: Echlin St

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:38 pm

Punchbowl wrote:Also that unique feeling you get walking down James and Thomas streets, flanked on each side by this intimidating sense of industry will be lost forever if they focus on the northen end


Hmm, I'm not at all sure that's how I would describe the walk down James's Street. Intimidating, yes - a sense of industry (or life or activity), no. Don't get me wrong, its a fantastic streetscape and the potential of the area is palpable but its has been allowed to decline for a long time now. Diageo has been permitted to simply turn its back on the street...even basic housekeeping and maintenance escapes them. Cleaned-up frontages would make the world of difference here.

I welcome new uses to the area. I certainly would like to see industry retained but I think its time for the area to move forward.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:13 pm

Remember this guy...

Image

I got a notice a couple of weeks back to say that enforcement proceedings have been take against the building owner. For all its advertising, the business didn't last very long.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:21 pm

Development is as rare as hens teeth on Thomas Street. I spotted this recently granted permission for a rather non-descript infill at 138-140 Thomas Street.

Image

View the application http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... ts%3C/a%3E
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:24 pm

And my final one for the day is the upcoming launch of Thomas Street: Improving the Public Face of an Historic City Centre Street by Dublin Civic Trust

The Trust’s latest policy document, 'Thomas Street – Improving the Public Face of an Historic City Centre Street' will be officially launched by the Lord Mayor of Dublin, Cllr Andrew Montague, at a reception in the National College of Art and Design on Thomas Street in mid-April.

Commissioned from the Trust by Dublin City Council in 2011, the study highlights the potential for the regeneration of Thomas Street as one of the major historic thoroughfares of the city through a variety of suggested measures. The report provides an in-depth analysis of the street in its current condition, identifying its attributes and its problems, while articulating a vision for the renewal of its historic fabric and the protection of its unique charm and character. It includes photomontages of restored stretches of streetscape, initiatives that could be undertaken to improve shopfronts, signage and building presentation, ways for promoting a healthy business mix on the street, and methods of capitalising on the rich historic and cultural associations of the thoroughfare.

The stimulus for the study is the increasing recognition of the importance of the street to the vitality of The Liberties and to a greater appreciation of the historic core of Dublin. Much of the Trust’s previous work on Thomas Street and its long-standing relationship with the area helped inform the report, including our publication Thomas Street, D8 and the Thomas Street & Environs Architectural Conservation Area drafted by the Trust for Dublin City Council.


You can read the report here http://issuu.com/dctrust/docs/thomas_street_study_master
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:56 am

540517_388133791206478_100000295806118_1436752_1759602721_n.jpg


Interesting view that I haven't seen before.
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5427
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby exene1 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:58 am

Nice pic. Another pic below showing that funny Limelight pub facade. Apparently it was just cladding over the facade of an older building. The same building is seen here in Google Street View as McGruder's - a happening spot for a while during the boom but now closed. The three old brick ones to the right of it have also been demolished:
http://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&ll=53. ... 17,,0,2.93


Image
User avatar
exene1
Member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:26 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:06 pm

Wow, great views. What a bizarre frontage..got to love the Brave New World of 1960s Dublin. Today, this is Thomas Street's most neglected section.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby thebig C » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:24 pm

Strange indeed. There are a number of oddities like that that still exist in Dublin, built most likely in the early 1960s but in a style harking back to more structural solidity rather then the glazed internationalism of the eara. I am thinking of particularly a building on Liffey Street with very narrow horizontal windows and a building on South Anne street (i think?) with odd protruding balconies.

I had a photo somewhere of a Pub called the Dolphin Bar (possibly in Temple Bar)....the frontage is unrevearved black Marble with a handful of windows.
thebig C
Member
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:55 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby exene1 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:32 pm

There are some interesting photos from this end of Thomas Street in the RTE photo collection, but destroyed by RTE's RIDICULOUSLY OTT insignia. The two buildings on the right in the picture below were shaved off about 40 years ago to widen the top of Bridgefoot Street. Morelli's - still there today - is now at the corner.

And on the extreme left No. 141, before it lost its top floor. An unusual building - more London Georgian than Dublin, like something you'd see in a side street in Hampstead.

Lol those pre hi-vis workmen.

Image
Image
User avatar
exene1
Member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:26 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:39 pm

Great images. So it looks like we lost another early house as part of the below site clearance - the white chap with characteristically low proportions and small windows, with the inserted ground floor shop gobbling up some of the first floor.

Image

The marvellously sophisticated house to the left is a Regency or slightly earlier makeover of a similarly early house, incorporating the fabric of the original dwelling including door joinery and a quaint barley sugar staircase, until the place was gutted by fire in the 1980s and further insulted with an enforced attic storey removal by the Corpo's Dangerous Buildings department.

The icing on the cake was the insertion of this delightful affair, the very picture of speculation, which I believe to be one of Brian O'Halloran's earlier contributions to the city.

Image


The loss of Nos. 15-16 Thomas Street with its giant double cruciform roof pictured below - seemingly one of the largest mansions built on Thomas Street (though Rocque is unconvinced) and later subdivided into a solid pair of houses in the Aungier Street manner - is beyond dispiriting. At least we still have the more classic Billys at No. 20 and No. 21, of which this new image is something of a revelation in showing what appears to be the original, very low, non-cruciform roof behind the added parapet of No. 21.

Image

There also appears to be the very faintest outline of a cruciform angle on the shared chimneystack on the No. 20 side. A magnificent classic Dublin house at No. 14 there too - hadn't seen that one before.

In other news, a recent planning application for no less than a bookies on the corner of Meath Street in the grand Victorian former Cash Converters premises has just been put out to further information.

Image

This is on foot of a very emphatic observation by the Conservation Officer highlighting the prominence and quality of the building, the rare survival of a high quality Victorian fascia, the general preposterousness of a shopfront within a shopfront, the crudeness of the proposed Ladbrokes signage and corporate branding, the Fáilte Ireland east-west spine route currently under development, and of course the ACA.

Curiously, the planner highlights two major concerns: 1) all of the above, and 2) a bookies being placed on a high profile corner. Yet the Further Information only refers to the former. A glaring omission I would have thought.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4590
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:56 pm

Also, one of the stalwarts of Thomas Street is going the way of much of the 1970s generation at the minute - The Carpet Mills (above) who have just shut down and the premises is now up to let. One of the largest retail floorplates in Dublin 8, will be interesting to see who, if anyone, takes on the unit. The buildings incorporate early fabric, are unprotected and vulnerable, and need considerable investment. They also have little to no street frontage with the market stalls and Kittensoft Korner outside their front windows.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4590
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:04 pm

I wouldn't imagine a bookies shop on a prominent corner as being a valid planning argument....I may be wrong. I wonder is there any reference to concentration of uses in the new Development Plan that might limit bookies and the like. Not a whole lot on the street though are there?
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Time for some vision....Dublin Civic Trust and Failte Ireland's marketing strategy. Can these inject some fresh thinking?
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:22 pm

Relevant extracts from planner's report:

The site has zoning objective Z5 – ‘‘to consolidate and facilitate the development of the
central area, and to identify, reinforce and strengthen and protect its civic design character and dignity’. A betting office is a normally permissible use within this zoning. In relation to
betting offices, Section 17.2.8 of the development plan states that it is an objective of the
planning authority ‘to prevent a concentration of betting offices in the city, thereby ensuring
(that) the number of units in a city street, district or neighbourhood is not disproportionate
to the overall number of community facilities and shop units’. It is stated that the provision
of betting offices will be controlled having regard to:

 The need to safeguard the vitality and viability of shopping areas in the city, and to
maintain a suitable mix of retail uses;
 The number/frequency of such facilities in the area;
 The existing proliferation of retail service units in the area (including internet cafes,
call centres, takeaways, amusement arcades and car rentals);
 The impact on the amenities of the area by reason of noise, hours of operation and
litter.

In the current development plan (2011-2017) Thomas Street and Meath Street are listed as
market streets/radial routes (Section 8.5). It is development plan policy to prepare
enhancement strategies for these streets and to set out a series of mechanisms to underpin
their regeneration. Both Thomas Street and Meath Street comprise a variety of retail and
retail service units. Thomas Street contains some comparison shopping together with
convenience and retail service uses. There are two public houses in close proximity to the
site, while other uses in the vicinity include a carpet shop and bakery/cafe. The shopfronts
vary in quality, while some of the units appeared vacant on inspection. Meath Street would
be considered to fulfil the function of a local shopping and retail service area for residents of
the inner city, and includes a church, social services centre and creche, with retail units
including butchers, secondhand shops and clothing/shoe shops. The street is relatively
vibrant but has a number of vacant units. On inspection one betting office was noted further
south of the site along Meath Street. This is a sizeable unit at ground floor level of a modern
apartment building. Further south, there is a recent grant of permission (under Reg. Ref.
2679/11) for change of use of the ground floor level from retail use to a Chinese restaurant.

[...]

There is concern regarding the proposed use on the site. There does not appear to be an
excessive concentration of betting offices in the vicinity; however, when taken in
conjunction with adjacent public houses and other non-retail uses the proposal could
contribute to a proliferation of non-retail uses along the important radial market street of
Thomas Street and the adjoining Meath Street. In this regard it is noted that the proposed use would consist of a relocation of the existing Ladbrokes unit further along Thomas Street.

Relevant extract ends.

Hmmm - there doesn't seem to be a conclusion drawn on the above.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4590
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:33 pm

To paraphrase Harry Truman..."Give me a one handed planner"
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:20 am

Don't be putting ideas in their heads, we don't want what's left of Thomas St. nuked

GrahamH wrote: At least we still have the more classic Billys at No. 20 and No. 21, of which this new image is something of a revelation in showing what appears to be the original, very low, non-cruciform roof behind the added parapet of No. 21.

Image


Is this not the same [non-original] roof that's still on it today?

We know the original roof was much steeper than this from the surviving profile of the return roof, we're just not sure [yet] whether it was cruciform or not.

The loss of 15-16 as recently as the 1980s is deeply regretable, but we still have most of no. 17 [McGruders] and it looks more interesting every time we see a new image of it.

Image
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Dublin Civic Trust launches a new study aimed at promoting the regeneration of Thomas Street. More details http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/news-entry.php?title=thomas-street-study-launched&post=1334570004

Regeneration proposals for historic Thomas Street in the centre of Dublin’s Liberties have been put forward in a new study by Dublin Civic Trust, being launched on Tuesday 17th May 2012 by the Lord Mayor of Dublin, Andrew Montague in the National College of Art and Design in the centre of Thomas Street.

Commissioned by Dublin City Council, the study, entitled Thomas Street – Improving the Public Face of an Historic City Centre Street, puts forward a vision for the future of the historic thoroughfare in Dublin 8, which has suffered from urban blight, dereliction and vacancy, including during the recent economic boom period. The study highlights Thomas Street’s historic building stock as one of its principal assets, while underlining the importance of its retention and restoration as part of a drive to improve the appearance of the street and its architectural character. It also promotes the consolidation and branding of local indigenous businesses, and the development of visitor attractions, an improved public realm and on-street public information to capitalise on the considerable tourist potential of the district.

Chief Executive Officer of Dublin Civic Trust, Geraldine Walsh notes that: “Thomas Street is the commercial heart of the Liberties and one of Dublin’s most historic streets. This has been recognised in recent studies conducted by Dublin City Council, including a major Local Area Plan, however there are now limited funds to implement initiatives of this kind. What we have done with this study is focus specifically on Thomas Street as the public face of the Liberties, and brought a recognition to the fact that most change can be driven by individual stakeholders on the street – the building owners, businesses, traders and residents. It is these efforts on the ground that effect real, meaningful change.”

Conservation Research Officer with Dublin Civic Trust, Graham Hickey notes that: “Thomas Street is all too commonly perceived as a decrepit route through the Liberties, whereas it is in fact a street of enormous significance to Dublin. Not only is the route grounded in over 800 years of the city’s evolution, but the scale and hierarchy of its churches and institutional complexes lend the street a remarkable grandeur and status within the city. Its stimulating streetscape scene of fine grain merchant premises interspersed with imposing public buildings never fails to excite the visitor and citizen alike, and it is this unique resource that this report seeks to highlight to commercial and cultural advantage for all. There is enormous scope to build on this asset by developing quality retailing, services and visitor attractions that complement this character and develop an unrivalled brand for the district."

The report follows on from Dublin Civic Trust’s long-term involvement in the area, which has included achieving an Architectural Conservation Area designation for the district and writing a book on the history of Thomas Street. Geraldine Walsh notes: “Unfortunately since the book was written in 2001, many of the architectural qualities it highlighted have since been eroded – you would never think that one of the most prosperous eras in economic history had even occurred here. The boom bypassed Thomas Street, leaving it open to site assembly and the resulting dereliction we see today. This has had considerable economic impact, as businesses gradually closed and footfall decreased. Thankfully, we are beginning to see a turnaround in this negative cycle – something that now needs stimulation through improving the public realm, promoting business and harnessing the cultural assets of the street.”

Graham Hickey says: “In spite of the losses of the twentieth century, Thomas Street retains a fascinating tapestry of early buildings that simply do not survive elsewhere in the city. This includes the Frawley’s terrace, proposed for demolition in 2008 and saved by the Trust on appeal to An Bord Pleanála, where the important early eighteenth century mansion of banker Joseph Fade still lurks behind deceptive peeling render, while formerly gable-fronted ‘Dutch Billy’ houses survive in the midst of The Digital Hub’s holdings further along the street. What makes Thomas Street so exciting is that it constantly reveals new information about the early structures of the city, hidden behind modified merchant facades. Only late last year we discovered a giant timber cornice, commensurate to a prestigious mansion dating to about 1700, in one of the most unassuming buildings on the street. This is what we have aimed to showcase in the study with a series of architectural visualisations, highlighting the quality of what we have here, as good as any continental city. It’s all about identification and changing perceptions.”


The 112 page report puts forward a three-pronged vision for Thomas Street:
    Create a high quality urban setting that showcases the architectural diversity of Thomas Street and creates a comfortable, interesting and visually attractive pedestrian experience.

    Heighten the cultural and tourist potential of Thomas Street and The Liberties.

    Enhance the market profile of the street and propose an effective mechanism to manage and promote Thomas Street.


The key recommendations of the report are:

[*]Make use of the many existing studies carried out for the area.

Develop the East-West Cultural Trail, currently under formulation with Fáilte Ireland, with a focus on Thomas Street as the prime tourist route in the area.

Stimulate the restoration of upper facades of buildings, windows and brickwork through an information and grant assistance campaign.

Use powers under the Architectural Conservation Area status to control shop signage and shop fronts, and issue guidance to shop owners on how to present their businesses to the benefit of the wider streetscape.

Encourage the restoration of key buildings on the street, such as the former Frawley’s department store and early eighteenth century houses, through collaboration with private and institutional owners.

Improve the public realm through the widening of pavements, planting of trees and installation of appropriate street furniture.

Re-imagine the current motorway-like High Street as a tree-lined boulevard and a key link to the city centre by taking out the current central median to slow down traffic and improve the pedestrian experience.

Rationalise public signage clutter, railings and redundant street furniture. Identify areas for civic space and public leisure use such as Cornmarket and the James’s Street island.

Develop a cultural trail through the district, focusing on its rich history, character and major events. Capitalise on major institutions such as churches and former distilleries as tourist attractions.

Manage the retail offering in the area under a Thomas Street Business Improvement District, or under a management umbrella that coordinates uses and presentation of shops and services, and builds a brand for the district.

Develop a Design Quarter, harnessing the considerable creative energy of NCAD and the antique and arts quarter of Francis Street. Develop sculture trails, design fairs and cultural evenings.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Cathal Dunne » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:11 pm

A great effort by Dublin Civic Trust. What I like about them is that they put forward clear and concrete solutions to the problems and weaknesses in the urban realm of Dublin. There are some great ideas there to bring Thomas Street up to scratch and to make the area much more appealing for residents, tourists and so on.

I like the idea to restore some Dutch Billy-style architecture to the area. Considering it was a great place for that style it makes sense to hearken back to it in a restoration of the quarter.

It would also be a good idea to do something to improve Thomas Street so as to expand the city's core of restaurants, shops, clubs and so on.
Cathal Dunne
Member
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:33 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:53 pm

Dept of Transport confirm a €1m allocation via NTA for the upgrade of the Thomas Street/James Street QBC http://www.dttas.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=533

The original plans that went to public consultation in 2010 showed all the hallmarks of Roads Engineers happily ensuring that 4 lanes of smooth traffic made their way unimpeded through this historic street. The report brief was to take account of the reality of the QBC given that it is an opportunity for funding for the street. The ideas in the report are intended to soften and ameliorate the impact of the QBC so that it doesn't simply become a route ferrying people through the street.

View the plans for the QBC here http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffi ... AWINGS.PDF

As part of the process of the Thomas Street Study the views of a locally-based planning and design firm were sought and this didnt come down very favourably for the current designs pointing our that the design undermined the urban qualities of Thomas/James Street by creating a suburban traffic route. Im not sure how successful the Dublin Civic Trust study will be in changing the design to place a greater emphasis on Thomas Street as a place to be rather than a place to get through.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Punchbowl » Tue May 08, 2012 9:00 pm

Some work being done inside the old library/hostel today. Surely a hostel or cheap hotel would clean up along there (if it played up on its proximity to the brewery)?
Punchbowl
Member
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:22 pm
Location: Echlin St

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Tue May 08, 2012 11:27 pm

Digital Hub refurbishing and converting to office use I think
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland