Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Fri May 08, 2009 8:58 pm

ac1976 wrote:This is appallling, such a fine building.
I cant help notice the sex shop attached to it and wonder if this might be part of the problem here. there is also a homeless center opposite it...


can this building not be reported as derelict with the owners forced to secure it??
aj
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby johnglas » Fri May 08, 2009 9:39 pm

ac1976: what is the 'problem' with a sex shop (this is 2009), and why should a homelessness centre on the other side of the road equally have any relevance? This is the inner city.
johnglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:43 am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Tue May 12, 2009 1:43 pm

Image

This is the Thomas Court building mentioned earlier in the thread by deBlacam & Meagher architects, granted permission by Dublin City Council (with some minor changes) and now gone to appeal. Yes, that picture is correct. There is a stairs running up the outside of the building and a diving board at the top, opposite St. Catherine’s Church. I know. Looks more like a student project than a building from one of the country's top practices.

Seriously, it is hard not to conclude that deBlacam & Meagher don’t know the Liberties, or refuse to get to know it. Or maybe they are just so addled by their new environment that they have lost the power of designing buildings - or at least location specific ones. They arrived in here a few years ago having spent 30 years plus (?) in a leafy lane in Dublin 4 and are probably still reeling with the culture shock of anti-social behaviour, broken glass, rotting buildings, needles etc. etc.

First there was the “Mini Manhattan” bunch of skyscrapers for the adjoining site to the west, based on something Shane deBlacam apparently liked by Renzo Piano in downtown Sydney (relevant precedent for Thomas Street!), and now it is proposed to destroy the setting of the finest surviving Dublin church of the mid-18th century. What next?
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby what? » Tue May 12, 2009 1:48 pm

From that single grainy image that looks like a a very interesting building to me.
what?
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:18 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby ctesiphon » Tue May 12, 2009 2:02 pm

Maybe the 'diving board' is a tribute to Robert Emmet? :rolleyes:

Aside from the diving board and the dead ground floor frontage, I think it looks like an interesting building too. Wrong location - more suited to a university campus? - but interesting all the same.

johnglas wrote:ac1976: what is the 'problem' with a sex shop (this is 2009), and why should a homelessness centre on the other side of the road equally have any relevance? This is the inner city.


Indeed. It could in fact be argued that these uses have kept some life in the street.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Tue May 12, 2009 2:14 pm

From that single grainy image that looks like a a very interesting building to me.


Leaving aside any consideration of context, yes. But here?

Some funny lines in the appeal....the Architect is not taking this planning decision well it seems...apparantly DCC made random decisions (although he may have a point! :D)

http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00265750.pdf

"it has led to a random decision based exclusively on the personal aesthetic judgement of the Planning Officer to take a floor off the building and to make a comment on the fenestration of the buildings facade."


...one man's art and all that....

.....ever hear of Architect's 'perogative', presumably some sort of relation to Planner's Prejudice and Developer's Desperation.

"The person who wrote this had no concept of what the Architect was trying to do with the façade. The Architectural intent is the Architect's perogative, and this was explained in the Architect's report which accompanied the response to Request for Further Information."


Seems DCC have been taking liberties with the Liberties LAP and our boy's work...

"the Liberties Local Area Plan which completely ignored the Industrial Architecture of Rainsford Street, Crane Street and Market Street and we respectfully draw An Bord's attention to page 190 where cartoon image interpretations of this Architect's building at the corner of Castle Street and Werburgh Street (a projecting corner in that location has a unique meaning) are reproduced all over the site bounded by Thomas Street, Thomas Court, Rainsford Street and Crane Street."


All fun and games until someone loses a floor...:D

To be honest I have no clue what the architect is trying to do here either, unless I have utterly failed to hear of the Red Bull Extreme Urban Cliffdiving Slam.
Smithfield Resi
Member
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:03 am

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby missarchi » Tue May 12, 2009 2:15 pm

Any more shots?

Dublin 8 has it fare share of issues DBM have had there windows smashed at least a few times as well as all the piss and shit
there are kids are kids as young as 7 breaking into building sites and climbing over razorwire... I've seen loads of things in D8 I have never seen before....
Having said that it was enjoyable for the first 2 years just don't kept anything valuable in your house and when your riding your bike avoid the bottles being thrown at you...
Apart from that D8 is great...
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue May 12, 2009 2:15 pm

This is wrong, on so many levels!

Which planning official is responsible for this?

Very surprised at you, what?
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Smithfield Resi » Tue May 12, 2009 2:20 pm

On public record so;

Mary Conway - preplanning/FI consultation
Claire Sheehan - planning
Smithfield Resi
Member
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:03 am

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue May 12, 2009 2:24 pm

Smithfield Resi wrote:All fun and games until someone loses a floor...:D


I missed that, that's very good :D

Ok then, . . . well I'm going to choose to blame Mary Conway
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Tue May 12, 2009 3:01 pm

smithfield Resi wrote:
the Liberties Local Area Plan Which Completely Ignored The Industrial Architecture Of Rainsford Street, Crane Street And Market Street

This is the problem with the building: it is an industrial style building on Thomas Street, where the buildings have a simple, classical style, facades facing the street etc. The argument citing the industrial buildings behind on Crane Street etc. as a precedent for this building does not hold water. They are in a different location architecturally and physically. deBlacam & Meagher are essentially proposing to bring an industrial building to a location to which it has no relation and where it would actually do graet damage to the existing character.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Tue May 12, 2009 9:05 pm

Fully agreed on this point. I find it baffling that 'the Architect' would claim that the Planning Authority appears not to hold the same views as 'the Architect' regarding the industrial character of the subject building's environs, when very clearly 'the Architect' is entirely incorrect.

Not a single industrial building forms part of the architectural expression, never mind the building stock, of either Thomas Street or Thomas Court - the principal host context of the proposed building - with the exception of a simple red brick structure on the corner of Rainsford Street, which itself is so ashamed of its function that it cloaks itself in a veneer of parish hall Victoriana. Just as the principal elevation of the proposed building addresses Thomas Court and Thomas Street, so too must its architectural language take its cue from these locations.

The history, and the present-day model, of the built environment of the Liberties is one of putting on a respectable face to the commercial thoroughfares, in spite of all that languishes behind. Restrained classical elevations and more exuberant frothy Victorian concoctions, however shallow or predictable, present themselves to the streets, in spite - perhaps to spite - the industrial character of the area. To express this functional heritage, however apt in the wider Liberties context, right next to the signature building of St. Catherine's Church, conveys a basic lack of understanding of the urban form of these streets. To take this logic further would be to reference timber yards, slaughterhouses and clay pipe manufacturing on infill sites along Thomas Street.

A confident insert of polite scenery was required here, precisely to restore distinguished urban form to a location that once exhibited such - not an over-interpreted piece of chic functional design. The canopy and staircase - referencing distillery buildings and cantilevered walkways - have absolutely no place expressed on a prestige commercial building on a prominent streetscape. It is the Disneylandisation of the Liberties and it is ill-informed. The height is similarly highly regrettable. A 'portal' indeed.

Saying that, it looks like a finely crafted building and it is extremely well detailed. And as someone who considers DeB&M's outstanding 1 Castle Street to be amongst the top ten of all buildings in the capital, I can appreciate the thought and consideration that has gone into this proposal. But very simply it is the wrong location.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue May 12, 2009 11:20 pm

GrahamH wrote:A confident insert of polite scenery was required here, precisely to restore distinguished urban form to a location that once exhibited such - not an over-interpreted piece of chic functional design.


Very well put Graham, . . . . another call for training in the lost art of restrained in-fill.

I didn't believe that they actually said that this building was intended to form, with the tower of St. Catherines Church opposite, ''a portal to the regeneration of the Liberties'', but it's there, in black and white, in the architects submission!

gunter wrote:Which planning official is responsible for this?


I'm going to have to back-track on that scurrilous slur, actually the Planner's report here is quite superb! Every bogus claim is held up to the light and put down with withering politeness.

And when a spade needed to be called a spade, we get that too:)

Extracts from the Planner's *Claire Sheehan* report:

[INDENT]''The proposed canopy is considered to be superfluous and out of scale with Thomas Court''.

'' . . the proposed external stairwell . . . is considered to be unduly obtrusive in this location''.

''It is not considered that the provision of either the stairwell or the canopy is justified and it is therefore considered that they should be omitted''.

''It is also considered that the fifth floor should be omitted to reduce the overall visual impact and the overbearing impact caused by the overhang of the upper floors, while still allowing for the retention of the more lightweight top floor''.

''. . . blank elevation over much of the ground floor level . . . not considered to be acceptable''.
[/INDENT]


A slightly worrying aspect of the architect's submission on this, ''The Bakery'', development is the numerous references to the adjoining 'Manor Park development', which may suggest that this particular behemoth is about to be lodged again.

Again CS is having none of it:

[INDENT]''. . . there is no permission for this development (Digital Hub / Manor Park site) at present and consequently the proposal must be viewed in the context of the existing scale and character of the area which includes Thomas street, Thomas Court and St. Catherine's Church. It is accepted that one of the objectives for the framework development area is to provide for 'dynamic contemporary architecture' but this also needs to integrate with the adjoining area of Thomas Street, which is a conservation area and key historic street . . .''[/INDENT]

Now this is what we're talking about!
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby infomercialscam » Wed May 13, 2009 2:30 pm

Thousands of tourists weekly, take the trail from Dublin Castle to Christchurch Cathedral and James Gate (Home to Guinness). In doing so they would pass these buildings in Thomas Street, about a hundred yards from James Gate. I lived a short distance from here for three years back in the early 1990s when the first apartments were going up opposite James Hospital.
infomercialscam
Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 12:31 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Wed May 13, 2009 10:44 pm

My Jasus, that deBlacam & Meagher proposal is just bloody awful, it will ruin the whole historic context of St Catherines and the whole area. This area is one of the last of the city whose old stock could be restored to a degree, with new infill maintaining uniformity and taste. That proposal is just a bloody assault.

Those guys are so far up their own arses!
User avatar
GregF
Old Master
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby jspruit » Thu May 14, 2009 12:25 pm

ctesiphon wrote:Maybe the 'diving board' is a tribute to Robert Emmet? :rolleyes:

Aside from the diving board and the dead ground floor frontage, I think it looks like an interesting building too. Wrong location - more suited to a university campus? - but interesting all the same.


Perhaps an homage to Alvar Aalto's MIT Baker House?
Attachments
bakerhouse.jpg
bakerhouse.jpg (23.51 KiB) Viewed 4676 times
jspruit
Member
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:25 am
Location: d8

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:52 pm

Bord Pleanála have again postponed a decision on Frawleys [PL 29S.231916]

Image

Image

The inspector's report was apparently completed seven weeks ago, but the decision keeps getting postponed from the original mid April deadline, first to 6th June and then 8th June, now they're not even giving a date!

What's there to decide?

The existing streetscape is too historic, the individual buildings are too intrinsicly important, the context beside St. Catherine's Church is too architecturally sensitive, and the proposed 'contemporary' office block is too architecturally dismal to even contemplate granting permission for this development!

Just drive a verbal stake through it's heart and we can all move on.

. . . not unless they're waiting on some new words to be approved by the Oxford English Dictionary
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:15 pm

Have faith dear boy! ABP will see you right.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:03 am

Beyonce cycled past these buildings last week (that's not as daft as it sounds). If the Bord are having difficulty reaching a decision, maybe they should ask her for an opinion on them. Given that it was a nice sunny day when she cycled up Thomas Street, she would probably say "Keep them!" ..... appeal sorted.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:16 pm

Wow, that would have been a sight to behold.......buxom Beyonce........ in Thomas Street.....kinda surreal stuff!
User avatar
GregF
Old Master
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:16 pm

What you see when coming out of James' St. Hospital........
Attachments
James Street.jpg
James Street.jpg (80.88 KiB) Viewed 4552 times
User avatar
GregF
Old Master
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:30 am

GregF wrote:What you see when coming out of James' St. Hospital........


pretty isnt it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
aj
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby johnglas » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:52 pm

Pathological, more like!
johnglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:43 am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:50 pm

I lifted this page from http://www.architecturefoundation.ie where it's being lying idle since being posted six months ago.

Tate Dublin? by Ciaran Cuffe

[INDENT]*0 Comments posted so far - Be the first to comment, click here!*
[/INDENT]

[INDENT]
Image

The Guinness Power Station building looks out across the Liffey, perched on a slope and surrounded by pipes, tanks, brick chimneys and even a disused windmill. It could be one of the most breathtaking additions to Dublin’s cultural spaces if it were converted into a gallery or museum. It is a marvellous icon of early twentieth century architecture, and presents two great facades. One faces to the north looking out towards the National Museum at Collins Barracks; the other looks onto James Street in the Liberties.

I’m still hoping that Guinness will hold onto James Gate and brew their dark porter for generations to come by the side of the Liffey, but ever since it was swallowed up by Diageo, I’ve had my doubts as to how long the Guinness brand will live. It’s an uneasy conglomerate that manages to hold Burger-King and Guinness in the same portfolio. Something has got to give. Certainly if the images on Google Maps are anything to go by, there’s more and more empty space emerging in the St. James Gate complex.

Surrounding the Power Station there’s also a wonderful site, and as an architectural student in the early 1980s I remember eying it up as a prime location for reinventing Dublin. There’s 500m of Quays frontage along Victoria Quay between Watling Street and Johns Road West at Heuston Station. The Power Station could be the cultural heart for an area that would benefit from new housing, new jobs and an influx of people in one of the most historic parts of the Capital.

I visited Liverpool recently. Albert Dock is great, but much of the rest of the city looks tired and weary. Streets of boarded up houses wait for something, anything to happen. The gods of shopping have created a surreal new area called ‘Liverpool One’ containing vast retail halls wrapped in an appealing veneer of architectural wallpaper, but on the day I visited Woolworths and MFI were under threat of closure. It may not be wise to bank on retail delivering a rosy economic future.

Dublin could do something different though; it could reinvent the city creating new workplaces and neighbourhoods that learn from the mistakes of Temple Bar and elsewhere. St. James’ Gate could give us a new model for living and working; hopefully greener and more child-friendly that some of the development that has occurred up and down the Quays in recent times. Next year will see the opening of Dublin’s Convention Centre in Dublin’s Docklands. Tens of thousands more visitors will have time on their hands and will be looking for some alternative to a pub crawl through Temple Bar. Let’s urge them to hop on a Luas and head for James Gate. What better way to kick things off a new wave of urban regeneration than turning the Power Station into a new cultural icon that might dispel the giant pint from its pedestal as Dublin’s number one visitor attraction.

Ciarán Cuffe is a Green Party TD for Dún Laoghaire [/INDENT]


[INDENT]No comments have been posted yet.
Why not join in the discussion - simply fill out the form below to get things rolling...
[/INDENT]

It's not a bad idea, but would it ever rise above being a pale, miniature, version of the Tate Modern?

I'd certainly advocate using the planning process to compel Diageo to adapt their future plans (if they still have any) to incorporate permeability through their vast land bank between James's St. and Victoria Quay. The topography here is as dramatic as it gets in Dublin and new vistas down to the river and to the National Museum beyond could be the making of the under-performing western end of the city centre.

Shame to let the ideas languish in dry dock!
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Rory W » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:59 pm

So the TD for Dun Laoghaire doesn't know that one of Dublin's biggest companies Diageo sold Burger King in 2002 - and we let people like this run the country!!! :mad:
Rory W
Old Master
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Drogheda & Blackrock

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland