Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue May 06, 2008 11:11 pm

I meant to post this up earlier, it's a copy of the current (second) application for the Digital Hub site. This went for Additional Information in December, so it's probably due back in any day now. I think the tallest building now is 30 storeys (down from 52 in the first application) but possibly the most bizarre aspect of the proposal isn't the cluster of glass towers, but the elevation treatment to Thomas Street.

Part of the AI is a request to both, explain what we're supposed to be looking at and, also to justify this very strange, apparently blank, brick wall treatment. That should make interesting reading. The other odd aspect of the proposal is (or appears to be) a wide, north facing arcade running behind the length of the Thomas Street frontage at ground level cutting trrough all new builds and protected structures in it's way!

Image

For orientation purposes, no. 19 Thomas Street is pretty much in the centre of the drawing, with the old library (or 4 out of the 5 bays of it) a bit to the left of that, with half of St. Catherine's Church visible further to the left. The right hand margin of the drawing would be Crane Street. The tall arch in the centre right is the entrace to a proposed new stepped 'street' which rises up to the summit of a 4 storey 'podium', and then back down to Rainsford Street to the south. As an indication of how confused the Planning Office was with these drawings, one of the questions they've asked is 'is it intended that the new north / south street be vehicular?', which unless we're talking about another remake of 'The Italian Job' seems possibly unlikely.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Ciaran » Wed May 07, 2008 12:58 am

Gunter,
"Re the Fountain Bar. I have some shots of that corner, I just can't quite locate them at the moment. We are talking about the pub right on the corner, not the one, now called 'The Tram' on the Protestant church side. Coming from Thomas Street there were two properties facing the 'fountain', a pub on the left and a bookies on the right (the Bow Lane corner). "
That's right my grandfather used to own this bar at least 40 to fifty years ago and now it's long gone for the LUAS. Any pics would be appreciated. Thanks
Ciaran
Member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed May 07, 2008 3:03 am

If any further proof was needed that the property developers of ireland had lost the run of themselves, that proposal is it.
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Wed May 07, 2008 6:25 pm

Believe it or not the first one was even funnier.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby missarchi » Wed May 07, 2008 7:14 pm

mabye the blank walls are because they moved the carpark up from the underground???

just a guess...
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Sarsfield » Wed May 07, 2008 9:52 pm

I noticed on the way home this evening that number 29 (Martins Butchers at the corner of Catherine's Lane) is cordoned off and a very large skip is sitting outside the building. Is something due to happen there or is the building just falling down?

Pic taken from a post by Devin earlier on this thread:

Image
Sarsfield
Member
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:44 am

Postby gunter » Wed May 07, 2008 10:57 pm

Sarsfield wrote:I noticed on the way home this evening that number 29 (Martins Butchers at the corner of Catherine's Lane) is cordoned off and a very large skip is sitting outside the building. Is something due to happen there or is the building just falling down?


I saw that skip too. I think it may be just a bit of renovation, there was a shoot from one of the upper floor windows when I went by. The building has looked vacant for a good while now, I think the butchers has been closed for at least three or four years.

On an unrelated matter, did anyone notice the article in the Irish Times on Saturday indicating that an announcement about the probable closure and re-location of all, or most, of the Guinness operation is imminent? It mentions that the '. . determination of Irish Rail to tunnel under the brewery to build an interconnector between Heuston and Connolly stations . . has influenced the decision'. 'Diageo intends to establish a new brewery on a greenfield site at Grange Castle near Clondalkin'! The new facility would replace not only James's Gate, but also the Harp plant in Dundalk and the Smithwick's brewery in Kilkenny as well.

The Guinness holding in Dublin is vast and as it sits between the 'Heuston high rise cluster' and the 'Digital Hub' / 'Knowledge Axis potential location for high rise cluster', you suspect that the model makers will be buying in bulk supplies of balsa wood and perspex.

On a serious note, if this was any other city in the world, the presentation of an urban challenge / opportunity like this would immediatly result in the commissioning of an architectural competition to develop a master plan to ensure that full advantage is taken of a once in a hundred years opportunity like this. Personally, I hope that whatever emerges in the coming months, Diageo are persuaded to retain a meaningful Guinness presence on their core site on the south side of James Street. 250 years of heritage can't just be replaced by a visitor centre.

Sorry about the poor graphics on the map.

Image
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu May 08, 2008 4:36 pm

Future of St James's Gate brewery in doubt
Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:03

Diageo says it will make an announcement tomorrow on the future of its brewing operations in Ireland including the historic Guinness brewery at St James's Gate.

It has been anticipated for some time that the company plans to consolidate its operations in Ireland into a new green-field site.

Diageo Chief Executive Paul Walsh is to fly to Dublin for a news conference at St James's Gate tomorrow morning.

He will give the results of a review of its brewing operations.

A company spokesman said there will be a significant announcement at the news conference.

It is widely anticipated that a new site in Clondalkin will be used for brewing operations, with a possible closure of plants in Dublin, Waterford, Kilkenny and Dundalk.

2,500 people are employed in total with 800 employed in Diageo's brewing operation, which also manufacturers Smithwicks, Kilkenny and Harp.

A SIPTU spokesman said they expected to be briefed tomorrow.
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby missarchi » Thu May 08, 2008 9:08 pm

International master plan competition would do this joint the world of good...

as well as material and style planning overlays

and extending bond st/island st and the rest...
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby notjim » Thu May 08, 2008 9:23 pm

Now if the DCC could buy just a little bit of the northern site and give it to some TCD, NCAD and DIT joint not-for-profit to build post-graduate accommodation, now then we could have a knowledge quarter, the cool creative quarter we lack!
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu May 08, 2008 9:53 pm

notjim:

A 'Knowledge Quarter' and a 'Creative Quarter'! Pretty soon we're going to have more quarters than a Vegas slot machine. I think you'll find that the 'Knowledge' one is an 'Axis' anyway, which is like a quarter, but stretched out.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby notjim » Thu May 08, 2008 10:11 pm

Ok ok ok, I just wrote just in case someone from DCC reads the thread and bing, a little jargon light lights up and we get the graduate accommodation: we need the graduates to start living in graduate accommodation so that they stop working 9 till 5 and the college authorities seem sort of blind to this maybe because they didn't spend enough of their careers in proper universities; take for eg the sale of 4 and 5 Forster Place which could have held oh a score of graduates, it could of been special accommodation for something-something award holders. Anyway, re the creative quarter, it was worth a try but I was rumbled.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby notjim » Fri May 09, 2008 10:03 am

So surprisingly they are going to continue brewing porter at James Gate for consumption on these islands with a new brewery to be build in or around Dublin for Harp, Kilkenny, Guinness for export beyond the archipelago and so on. Some of the current site will be sold. Dundalk and Kilkenny breweries to shut.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri May 09, 2008 2:21 pm

the areas marked in red are to be retained - the remainder to be developed
Attachments
image_204139_1.jpg
image_204139_1.jpg (55 KiB) Viewed 4156 times
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Fri May 09, 2008 4:26 pm

This is the opposite of what I was expecting.

Not much chance of getting any new streets going north - south from the river to James's Street, or a nice diagonal from Heuston to Thomas Street.

Why must everything be so much less than you hoped for?
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Fri May 09, 2008 4:41 pm

gunter wrote:This is the opposite of what I was expecting.

Not much chance of getting any new streets going north - south from the river to James's Street, or a nice diagonal from Heuston to Thomas Street.

Why must everything be so much less than you hoped for?


+ 1
hutton
Senior Member
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: NAMA HQ

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby PTB » Fri May 09, 2008 4:43 pm

PTB
Member
 
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:14 am
Location: Middle Earth

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby ctesiphon » Fri May 09, 2008 4:45 pm

hutton wrote:+ 1


Do you have a '+1' key on your keyboard these days, hutton? :D
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Rory W » Mon May 12, 2008 11:50 am

Cant believe you're surprised about this - the river frontage is the most underdeveloped (and also most desirable) part of the site
Rory W
Old Master
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Drogheda & Blackrock

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Mon May 12, 2008 12:09 pm

ctesiphon wrote:Do you have a '+1' key on your keyboard these days, hutton? :D


+ 1 :p
hutton
Senior Member
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: NAMA HQ

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Mon May 12, 2008 12:18 pm

Rory W wrote:Cant believe you're surprised about this - the river frontage is the most underdeveloped (and also most desirable) part of the site


The surpise (to me) is that the sell off includes all of the the core Guinness properties to the south of James's St. (except the Storehouse and the actual gate at James's Gate) and also, that it includes just the northern half of the vast holdings to the north of James's street.

I was expecting they would retain some kind of token brewery on the original site and sell off everything else, including all of the northern site.

I agree with you that the Victoria Quay frontage is probably the prime real estate out of the whole package, but to have a modern brewery / chemical plant (as characterised elsewhere) on the high ground to the south and not to have the inter-connectivity north/south from the river to James's Street, certainly surprises me. You probably saw this coming.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1905
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby johnglas » Mon May 12, 2008 12:43 pm

Looks to me like an amazing urban 'opportunity' either way, lack of potential grands boulevards aside. However, it is a brewery - what about the smells?; the ripe smell of malted barley (or whatever) is very evocative occasionally, but living and working right on top of it?
johnglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:43 am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby ctesiphon » Mon May 12, 2008 1:38 pm

hutton wrote:+ 1 :p


Now I have a vision of a keyboard, probably like a phone keypad, with just a '+1' key and the full range of smileys! :confused::D:o

;)

OT: Aren't most of the better buildings (PSs) in the southern part? It's odd to embrace a constraint like that when the more straightforward option seems also to be the better one from a redevelopment / city point of view.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby BTH » Mon May 12, 2008 4:48 pm

Hmmm, it is a real shame that the riverside portion of the site won't have any connectivity with James St. It would have been much better from an urban perspective to have concentrated all the Guinness activity south of James St. yet I can see why they didn't - the most modern sections of the brewery, the power plant and most of the current production is there in the section immediately North of James St. already...
I wonder would there be any way of running a public route through it - whether an elevated walkway or an actual street where the machinery and production lines could bridge across dramatically (im thinking a modern day version of Shad Thames if anyone knows it) - it could become quite an attraction in it's own right, the ability to walk right through the middle of the Guinness plant, with bars and cafes enlivening the public level at certain points - plus it would help the connectivity of the new riverside quarter....
BTH
Member
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Galway

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby BTH » Mon May 12, 2008 9:26 pm

Heres a pic of Shad Thames, one of my favourite places in London

Image

I'd imagine any version passing through the Guinness plant would be more like something from a sci-fi movie but you get the idea!
BTH
Member
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Galway

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland