Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby weehamster » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:36 pm

I love to see this 'New Canal' at low tide. I wonder what it will look like. Will it be full of silt deposits in years time...:rolleyes:
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby jdivision » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:36 pm

Rusty Cogs wrote:Well for any 18 - 80 year olds who are interested, there is a presentation on this development as well as the 'new' plans for the North Docklands (read, increase in height restrictions) by the DDDA in the Clarion Hotel tonight at 7.30pm (Tuesday, Mar 25th). It's aimed at the local residents but I'm sure the DDDA would be happy to accomodate all interested parties. I'll be going along to see where my tax dollars are heading over the next 10 years ;) .

The Clarion is between Jury's and Spencer Dock on the North Quay's.

anybody go? Could you pm me details if you did.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:38 pm

& post publicly if you get a chance !
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby GrahamH » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:30 pm

:)

I tagged along (thanks Rusty for lunging me into a bearpit of a local residents meeting - much obliged!).

The CEO of the DDDA Peter Coyne was there, as well as their architect and social/community person. Peter Coyne is an excellent operator: somebody one would have confidence in delivering. He only took the job on two years ago as well, so we he's fortunate in not having to explain away the past decade.

It was admitted that the first phase of north Docklands failed insofar as mixed use, public space and urban vitality are concerned. It was often emphasised that this is a learning curve - something that's a little hard to swallow when it deals with people's quality of life and multiple acres of prime urban land...

Anyway the proposed new scheme clamped between Spencer Dock and Point Village is part of the 2008 Masterplan that's currently being drafted. The masterplan was first compiled in 1997 and updated in 2003. This plan is one that seeks to significantly boost the skyline of the the north docks. The base level of heights on and around the 'island' will be 6 storeys, punctuated by a number of blocky towers, around ten or so, ranging from 14-15 storeys to 25 storeys - the majority in the former range.

On land proper, to the north, one of the flagship projects will be a family-oriented apartment scheme, centred around existing housing off Mayor Street. To respect the existing scale of housing they will be graduated from about 3 storeys up to around 6-7 storeys, the taller buildings essentially forming an enormous courtyard with parkland in the middle. Everything in this scheme is to be designed around families. Nearby will be a state-of-the-art residential/drop-in facility for the elderly of the area, with accommodation I think for about 80 residents.

Of course the island is centre-stage in all of this. It really won't have the feel of an island it must be noted - the canal around it just generates that impression on a plan view. The waterway does have some merit, though I'd be concerned that the linear parks will be insufficient for practical use. The canal will be narrow and relatively discreet with small 'intimate' bridges crossing it. It is intended that the canal would also serve as a flood defence - absorbing water at high tides, and releasing again afterwards. Personally I cannot imagine such a meagre body to have such impact in the wider context of a flooding Liffey, but it's an element anyway. It is also proposed that the canal will act as a source for water recycling and grey water use etc.


Image


Along the contentious projection out into the Liffey, it is intended to build a covered arcade along the river frontage, similar to an example in Hamburg, but along modernist lines. This would be lined with artists' shops and other 'cultural' and café uses. It is to be wide and spacious, and provide cover from the wind. Taller buildings would then rise up behind and on top of this, all of which - either to the projection or to the island as whole, I'm not sure - are to be publically-oriented. Given a number of towers are proposed for the island, I imagine it refers just to the river frontage. The roadway of the campshires will continue as normal through the island. Pressed on the projection, the architect argued that this will be a defining development and that such a pronouncement into the river is justified as heralding/marking the new quarter on the river, 'much as the Custom House does with its river frontage' - a comparison I fail to make a connection with...

The quayfront to the west before the projection will feature a mixture of parkland and mix-use developments. Some of these developments will include roof gardens open to the public.

The renderings employed were well-executed, but conjectural. I found that things were moving a little too in the opposite direction from what we've experienced in Docklands thus far. In an attempt to move away from the homogenity of the previous development, this one seeks to punctuate a landscape with quirky stand-alone buildings. It all looked bizarrely theme-park like, but that could purely be down to the imagery employed. Essentially nothing has been designed yet - aside from the public parts, it's up to the developers to propose solutions compatable with the plan.

Indeed the latter is the most admirable aspect of the new masterplan - nothing gets built unless it conforms with the plan. Liam Carroll has been refused no less than three applications in the Docklands area in the past short while as indiction of such. The DDDA are emphatic that nothing will be built unless it offers community and social gain (though I would have liked to hear design gain mentioned, even once).

Lots of encouraging aspects, but concerns about the Liffey projection, and the lingering question - why couldn't we have this thinking a decade ago?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:43 pm

GrahamH wrote::)
The CEO of the DDDA Peter Coyne was there, as well as their architect and social/community person. Peter Coyne is an excellent operator: somebody one would have confidence in delivering. He only took the job on two years ago as well, so we he's fortunate in not having to explain away the past decade. ?



Peter Coyne has been involved with the DDDA for far longer than 2 years Graham. During my digging around in the debacle of the original U2 competition, I had dealing with him and his acolytes which were not pleasant.

http://ireland.archiseek.com/news/2003/000250.html
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Morlan » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:18 pm

Thanks Graham.

"the taller buildings essentially forming an enormous courtyard with parkland in the middle"

Will there be public access?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby jdivision » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:19 pm

GrahamH wrote::)

IThe CEO of the DDDA Peter Coyne was there, as well as their architect and social/community person. Peter Coyne is an excellent operator: somebody one would have confidence in delivering. He only took the job on two years ago as well, so we he's fortunate in not having to explain away the past decade.



Given Peter Coyne left two years ago and was widely regarded as being a lightweight I presume you're referring to Paul Maloney who made a bit of a balls of O'Connell St. Did you get interrogated as to whether you were a resident or not. I was:)
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby paul h » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:15 pm

A very interesting read thanks, and what sounds like a very interesting project.

Taller varied buildings
A nice linear park to sit and read a book, eat a sandwich, guzzle cheap beer , sell drugs...hang on maybe not the last two...
Family oriented apartments
Elderly centre
An island , of sorts
Small bridges (who hasn't stood on a bridge gazing into the water pondering life:D)
A canal


Whats this strange feeling ... i think.. yes ... it may be mild excitement
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby paul h » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:55 pm

SUNDAY BUSINESS POST
Covered arcade planned for Liffey Island scheme
30 March 2008 By Neil Callanan
A covered arcade along part of the Liffey with shops and cafes is being planned by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.

Details of the project were unveiled last week as the authority outlined further details of its Liffey Island plan for the north docklands at a meeting of the North Lotts’ Residents Association.

The authority also said that the land between Spencer Dock and Point Village will have significantly higher development than allowed for under the 2003 masterplan.

The new masterplan will allow buildings of up to 25 storeys, but most of them will be between 14 and 15 storeys.
Those attending the meeting were vetted and this reporter was asked to leave.
However, details of the plans were subsequently posted on architectural discussion forum archiseek.com.



The high-rise cluster would straddle North Wall Quay between the East Link Bridge and the Santiago Calatrava bridge.

The buildings will be mixed use with retail on the ground floor, offices above that and residential units on the top floors. Part of the site would be dug out to create a new canal with small bridges crossing it. Stilts would then be driven into the Liffey, allowing buildings to be built there.

An apartment complex is also to be developed off Mayor Street, with parkland and a courtyard in the middle. New buildings will also have to provide community and social gain before they are given the go-ahead.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=31671-qqqx=1.asp
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby GrahamH » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:59 pm

jdivision wrote:Given Peter Coyne left two years ago and was widely regarded as being a lightweight I presume you're referring to Paul Maloney who made a bit of a balls of O'Connell St. Did you get interrogated as to whether you were a resident or not. I was :)



No it definitely was Peter Coyne. Sounds like I got the figure wrong though - maybe he's been with them a while but was made CEO recently. I found him and his staff all very gracious.

By contrast, I saw that woman asking you to leave and thought her manner extremely rude and your leaving completely unnecessary. There were a couple of empty seats all night. I was just on the verge of being asked who I was, but escaped unharmed. Either way I wasn't going without a fight: Mr Coyne told me members of the public were quite welcome.

And for the record, jdivision does the best grumpy expression ever :D
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:56 am

GrahamH wrote:No it definitely was Peter Coyne. Sounds like I got the figure wrong though - maybe he's been with them a while but was made CEO recently. I found him and his staff all very gracious.

By contrast, I saw that woman asking you to leave and thought her manner extremely rude and your leaving completely unnecessary. There were a couple of empty seats all night. I was just on the verge of being asked who I was, but escaped unharmed. Either way I wasn't going without a fight: Mr Coyne told me members of the public were quite welcome.

And for the record, jdivision does the best grumpy expression ever :D


Yes, I saw the SBP journo being evicted. He obviously reads this site and figured he'd come along. There seemed to be a bit of confusion as to just who was allowed to attend.

Graham, that was Paul Maloney speaking

http://www.ddda.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=99&3nID=99&pID=139&nID=200

and was that you at the end asking why no one had questioned the architectural merit of the development (with a 'will somebody think of the children' expression) ? :p
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby GrahamH » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:34 am

Ahhh - it is Paul Maloney. Well that's embarrassing isn't it? I was under the distinct impression that everyone was calling him Peter all night.
Right - so it was he that was an impressive operator.

Me - ask something of an architectural character? I don't know what you're talking about Rusty...
(Says he of "I want my bridge, and I want it now" fame ;))
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Cute Panda » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:05 am

I like this idea a lot.

As usual the hysterical arm-wringers complaining over nothing reaches epidemic on this board once again

30 Years ago you would of all been members of SPUC - your generation of middle class whiners are just transferring your Oirish irrational terror at something new and different onto buildings, metros, etc these days instead of condoms and divorce.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:16 am

Cute Panda wrote:I like this idea a lot.

Good of you to explain why you like it. Thanks for the insight.

Cute Panda wrote:30 Years ago you would of all been members of SPUC - your generation of middle class whiners are just transferring your Oirish irrational terror at something new and different onto buildings, metros, etc these days instead of condoms and divorce.

Another solid argument. (For the record, I see at least four internal contradictions in the sentence quoted above [not to mention the grammatical errors].)

If you want to debate the merits of this development, please do.

*** *** ***

So the DDDA draws up a new approach to the development of this area, but decides to exclude non-residents by vetting the attendees, and then ejects a journalist from the meeting?

You'd think it had something to hide, not something to sing about.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby alonso » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:42 am

Cute Panda wrote:I like this idea a lot.

As usual the hysterical arm-wringers complaining over nothing reaches epidemic on this board once again

30 Years ago you would of all been members of SPUC - your generation of middle class whiners are just transferring your Oirish irrational terror at something new and different onto buildings, metros, etc these days instead of condoms and divorce.


Social and political history not your forte then eh?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby johnglas » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:00 am

Is Cute Panda Joanlemmon in disguise? (I recognise the bile and lack of argument.)
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby Rusty Cogs » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:12 am

ctesiphon wrote:Good of you to explain why you like it. Thanks for the insight.


Another solid argument. (For the record, I see at least four internal contradictions in the sentence quoted above [not to mention the grammatical errors].)

If you want to debate the merits of this development, please do.

*** *** ***

So the DDDA draws up a new approach to the development of this area, but decides to exclude non-residents by vetting the attendees, and then ejects a journalist from the meeting?

You'd think it had something to hide, not something to sing about.


To clarify, it was a member of the residents committee who ejected the Journo, not the DDDA. According to Graham the DDDA didn't have an issue with members of the public being in attendance.

A week after the fact, and I hope I'm not just being cynical, I hope the whole thing isn't a bit of a smoke screen to get the residents to accept the new (25 storey) development plans for the area.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby tommyt » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:16 am

Cute Panda wrote:I like this idea a lot.

As usual the hysterical arm-wringers complaining over nothing reaches epidemic on this board once again

30 Years ago you would of all been members of SPUC - your generation of middle class whiners are just transferring your Oirish irrational terror at something new and different onto buildings, metros, etc these days instead of condoms and divorce.



Ah jaysus CP you've pissed on your chips in my eyes with that tirade. Second time in as many days I've been accused of being middle class:(
I would imagine the Lumpen Proles down the docks think this is as RIDICULOUS an idea as the naysyaers here. They probably need the fill from digging this new Venice to finish off reclaiming George's Dock.:rolleyes:
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby GrahamH » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:20 am

Just to clarify, the DDDA were fine with others attending from outside the resident's association. It was a member of the association who forced the hand.

Also jdivision was not ejected because of being a journalist, but simply for being a member of the public. For this reason, and the manner it which it was handled, it was a particularly unwarranted action, and not I would imagine to be representative of the association as a whole, who appeared to be a decent and welcoming bunch.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby jdivision » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:02 pm

GrahamH wrote:And for the record, jdivision does the best grumpy expression ever :D



What can I say, I'm an angry man:p
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby massamann » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:27 pm

Maybe the solution in future is to go in disguise. We should plan this carefully. We will organise as cells, so even if an individual is discovered ("outed"), they can only give up the names of five people at most. First rule of archiseek: YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT ARCHISEEK.

I'll be the chap in the hoodie with an afro and a large moustache. Codename: Bingo.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby gunter » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:27 pm

DDDA propose a block of 15 - 25 storey towers at spencer Dock, one line of which are stood on stilts in the Liffey, outside the Quay wall. In return, we get a moat! (sorry, perimeter canal and linear park).

This is exciting stuff. Of course this is exciting stuff, running out in front of traffic on the dual carriageway is exciting stuff.

The proposal does a handbrake turn on urban cohesion in pursuit of the missing docklands 'Wow' factor!

The proposal turns it's back of 350 years of quay front planning policy!

The way I see it we have two choices:

1. Lock 'em up and throw away the keys, or

2. Knock 'em up and throw away the quays.


Oh this is a tough one.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:21 pm

Rusty Cogs wrote:To clarify, it was a member of the residents committee who ejected the Journo, not the DDDA. According to Graham the DDDA didn't have an issue with members of the public being in attendance.

A week after the fact, and I hope I'm not just being cynical, I hope the whole thing isn't a bit of a smoke screen to get the residents to accept the new (25 storey) development plans for the area.


Aah. My apologies to the DDDA. (Thanks RC and GH for the clarification.)

But why in g-d's name would the residents want to eject non-residents? Aside from anything else, if this goes ahead it will have a city-wide impact, and I don't want some blinkered local calling the shots for my city based on some spurious local planning gain grounds. (If the meeting was arranged by DDDA, then surely it was solely responsible for the management of attendance. The fact that a single local can get her way is a worry- is the DDDA that worried about local support?)

Same question to the local resident, then: What have you got to hide?
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby jdivision » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:07 pm

well on the noticeboard in the hotel the room had been booked from 2pm so I was wondering if there was something on beforehand or whether it really took them five hours to stick up a few posters.
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Re: Buildings on stilts in the Liffey

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:50 pm

Presumably sweeping the joint for listening devices. ;)
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