"Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

"Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:28 pm

Anyone know what "modern" structures (modern as in post War 20thC) DCC has on the Record of Protected Structures?
Given the off hand removal of a great curtain wall on Suffolk St last year, the much reported planned demise of Liberty Hall (icon of it's era etc etc etc), reports of BOI on Baggott St being up for the chop, is there a skewed focus on particular eras rather than a holistic view of all of Dublin's built environment?


Politicians, public buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby phil » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:04 pm

A few that I found on the list:

Archer's Garage (Rebuild)
Busáras
Berkeley Library in Trinity
Ref 2019 also includes the Trinity Arts Block, which, I must say I was suprised to see.
Carroll's Building

Link to list available here

Incidently, where did you hear about the possibility of Bank of Ireland Baggot Street being for the chop?
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:46 pm

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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Devin » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:59 pm

The '30s council flats, Chancery House, on Chancery Street are on the Record of Prot. Strucs.

I wonder what the youngest building on the Dublin RPS is? It must be between the Carroll's Building and the Berkeley Library.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby phil » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:29 pm

Devin wrote:
I wonder what the youngest building on the Dublin RPS is? It must be between the Carroll's Building and the Berkeley Library.


Or Archer's Garage :D

Thanks for the link Paul. It got planning in the recent past for a new restaurant extention.
link here
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Devin » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:22 pm

phil wrote:Or Archer's Garage :D
Or for an even newer 'rebuild' example there's 86 Thomas Street - the Thomas House pub - a Protected Structure totally rebuilt behind the facade about a year ago.

There's also 16 Parnell Square (Georgian house at the corner of Gardiner Row) - demolished and rebuilt from scratch around the same time as Archer's.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:13 pm

Not to mention the protected former Irish Times WSC terrace's 1950s rebuilds clamped in the middle - but that's just picking holes :p
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby jdivision » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:24 pm


There is likely to eventually be some infill development on the site. Quinlan has always looked for ways to "add value" to existing buildings such as the infill plans for one of what was then the Savoy Group of hotels (can't remember which one at the moment) and the Knightsbridge estate.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby goneill » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:26 pm

Is the Investment Bank of Ireland at Leeson Street Bridge and Fitzwilliam Place (c. 1982) on the Record of Protected Strcutures?
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby d_d_dallas » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:35 pm

Hasn't the horse already bolted having Archers still on the list?
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Devin » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:04 pm

[quote="Paul Clerkin"]http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2006/000087.html

COULD BANK OF IRELAND’]

Just reading the full text of this article, I’m starting to feel the building had better be listed sooner rather than later! What exactly does Ronald Tallon mean by a new owner “might get an extra floor on Baggot Street - it's quite capable of taking it alright”? Would this not upset the composition? And how might an extra floor be executed – as a facisimile design? Would you still be able to get matching materials for a seamless look? Or maybe he’s thinking of a heritage mansard roof? Or a glass-canopied hkr-special perhaps??

And an atrium over the plaza? That would certainly respect the design!! Maybe a glass cage should be built over the whole thing.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:47 pm

No doubt a fascimile storey would be proposed on the lower front block - a very cheap and easy way to make big rental gains...


The horse has bolted indeed - why was Archer's Garage built with cheap aluminum windows?

Image

At least they look reasonable on the ground floor.


Image


Image


Steel frames are still available in the UK, even for domestic installations. They ought to have been forced to source them there.
Of course if the steels had already disappeared pre-demolition, then Planning probably couldn't enforce the sourcing of such an expensive material that's probably not even made in this jurisdiction anymore...
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Postby Devin » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:01 pm

The windows of the rebuilt garage were a bummer.



Something else from that article on BoI Baggot Street needs to be taken up:
The bank building didn't involve the demolition of Georgian houses
What are these then, Christmas trees? :
.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:43 pm

What a spectacular juxtaposition - if anything even more preferable to what we have today, though doubtfully the case at street level. A remarkable sight from this location at least.

Isn't the Georgian on the opposite corner of James Street a replica too? :(
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby goneill » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:27 am

Not so much a replica as a makey-uppy
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Devin » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:24 am

GrahamH wrote:What a spectacular juxtaposition - if anything even more preferable to what we have today, though doubtfully the case at street level. A remarkable sight from this location at least.

Isn't the Georgian on the opposite corner of James Street a replica too? :(

As I recall it’s dodgy.

Those two houses in the last picture were not right on corner of James’s Street. There were about four more again to the west of them, so somebody’s giving you false information about no Georgian houses being demolished for the bank, Emma. The ground-floor remains can be seen after demolition (below).

The authors of this publication (A Future for Dublin, 1975) agree with you about the juxtaposition, Graham.
.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:52 am

Yep - reading back on the story from The Destruction of Dublin, there were six houses remaining fronting Baggot Street as can be seen above. Deirdre Kelly sought an injuction from the High Court for their temporary protection, claiming the oral hearing for the terraces's demolition to be 'null and void'.

"Two days before the writ was issed, the bank hired a demolition crew and gave them £30,000 to 'shift these houses within a week'..." They started at 5am on a Sunday morning, and by the end of the following week the houses had been reduced to the state depicted above. There was no point in pursuing the court action from the moment the crew had entered the site.


A few pics from about four years ago, taken on glorious film. In hindsight looking back on that day, I'm surprised I wasn't targeted from the rooftops.

Image



Image



Image


And the repro Georgian - it has delightful Barbie castle railings below.

Image
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Devin » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:53 am

GrahamH wrote:Deirdre Kelly sought an injuction from the High Court for their temporary protection, claiming the oral hearing for the terraces's demolition to be 'null and void'. .... "Two days before the writ was issed, the bank hired a demolition crew and gave them £30,000 to 'shift these houses within a week'..."
The things they had to go through back then!!
Can you imagine all of us on this forum 30 years ago: 'Ah jaysus, another five are after being demolished this morning on Mount Street'!
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:05 pm

It's interesting that it's taken only 30 years from the demolition of these georgians to worry about the future of the building that replaced them.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby publicrealm » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:55 am

Paul Clerkin wrote:It's interesting that it's taken only 30 years from the demolition of these georgians to worry about the future of the building that replaced them.


I think 30 years is about right to decide whether a building is good or bad (assuming that it is somewhat controversial to begin with)?
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby d_d_dallas » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:15 pm

What's interesting is that there's still a debate over the Georgians that BOI replaced which raises my initial point again - wouldn't an holistic view of built environment be better for the RPS? If we can move past the removal of worthy structures or an era, indeed many Georgians were ripped down to be replaced by garbage, but in this case at least their sacrifice was for something that is worthy of preservation.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby publicrealm » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:57 pm

d_d_dallas wrote:What's interesting is that there's still a debate over the Georgians that BOI replaced which raises my initial point again - wouldn't an holistic view of built environment be better for the RPS? If we can move past the removal of worthy structures or an era, indeed many Georgians were ripped down to be replaced by garbage, but in this case at least their sacrifice was for something that is worthy of preservation.


A genuine holistic view would be good - but whose view? - would you take, say, the view of the Minister for the Environment? Of An Taisce? Jackie Healy Rae/the Knight of Glin/the local Residents' Assciation/IRDA?

Personally I would not allow the politicians any say in anything to do with the built environment - they are too compromised to take anything but a very short term view - and there is generally an election in the offing or else some other grubby advantage to be gained.

The RPS is inflexible and generally only considers obvious buildings - but it has some element of democracy. Views on modern buildings diverge - didn't one recent poll show the unwashed public having diametrically opposing views on favourite buildings to the choices of architects?

The highly respected architect (an English Lord I think?) who spoke for the ESB re. the demolition of the Georgians to facilitate the ESB thing in Lower Fitzwilliam Street described them as "just one damned house after another" Maybe that was the holistic view of the day?
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby ctesiphon » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:36 am

publicrealm wrote:The highly respected architect (an English Lord I think?) who spoke for the ESB re. the demolition of the Georgians to facilitate the ESB thing in Lower Fitzwilliam Street described them as "just one damned house after another"

Sir John Summerson, I think. Not sure if he was a 'Sir' at that stage, though.
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:17 am

Sir John Summerson was as fair as I know paid for his opinion by the ESB and was ever-so-slightly biased
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Re: "Modern" Protected Structures in Dublin

Postby hutton » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:55 am

Paul Clerkin wrote:Sir John Summerson was as fair as I know paid for his opinion by the ESB and was ever-so-slightly biased
Only so slightly :D Walter Gropius - to his shame - also egged that scheme on :(

One or two other things I have noticed about the RPS, apart from lacking modern structures:

1 It tends to be dominated by bourgouis streets, where judge so-and-so does not want development near his home and so pushes for an entire street may get listed - meanwhile buildings of merit in a less well-healed area gets overlooked; might this explain the dominance of the southside on the rps?

2 Buildings of historic merit - rather than architectural - are frequently overlooked, particularly on the northside (excuse my chip this morning :p ). An example of this would be 16 Moore St.

3 There is no consistancy to the RPS; in Donnybrook, Eglinton Road has some of the finest 19th c suburban houses in Dublin and yet the only thing to be listed is the reconstructed St Brocs well in the middle of a 70s housing estate; meanwhile Marlborough Road - also in Donnybrook - which is of far less architectural substance, is listed in full!

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