New Advertising in Dublin

Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby StephenC » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:48 pm

Yes :-) "you's family now!"

I also note from this ongoing palaver that not a dickiebird is being said of all that wayfinding signage that was supposed to be provided as part of the deal.....not a squeak
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby hutton » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:16 pm

hutton wrote:So once again, it appears Dublin City Council may be prepared to give away the revenue potential of €39 million over 15 years in exchange for 10 bicycles.

Oh well, at least Dublin is getting taken for quite the ride it was as last time :rolleyes:


This should of course have read" it appears Dublin City Council may be prepared to give away the revenue potential of €39 million over 15 years in exchange for 100 bicycles"

and also "Oh well, at least Dublin is not getting taken for quite the ride it was as last time"

D'oh! :o
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby notjim » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:34 pm

@ctesiphon: of course you were missed, I kind of wandered off when you did.

In the original deal JCD were to remove some of the older signs that had been erected back in the day with no planning permission, did that happen?
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby hutton » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:41 pm

By my calculation, each new bicycle would be working out at €390,000 per bike...

Have a look at the rates on the JC Decaux Ireland website if you want; my calculations are based on €1250 for 1 of 4 adverts x 2 if the metropole is dual-aspect, x 26 fortnights in the year x 15 years.

There are 3 DCC swimming pools slated for closing; Seán MacDermott Street, Crumlin, and the Coolock.

Each pool costs €400,000 per annum. By my calculations, DCC could erect 5 metropole billboards which could generate €1,300000 and this would keep all 3 swimming pools open. The €100,000 left over could cover the cost of admin and allow for empty periods.

So there you have it, rather than allowing JC Decaux erect 10 billboards, why doesn't DCC itself consider erecting only 5? These could easily be accommodated along the N11 dual carriageway between the UCD Flyover and Donnybrook bus depot, as it passes by Montrose. (Unlike lower-income areas, for some odd reason the leafy N11 wasn't included the last time).

3 swimming pools for half the amount of new billboards? Tis a no-brainer :)
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby saintleger » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:37 pm

hutton wrote:
There are 3 DCC swimming pools slated for closing; Seán MacDermott Street, Crumlin, and the Coolock.

Each pool costs €400,000 per annum. By my calculations, DCC could erect 5 metropole billboards which could generate €1,300000 and this would keep all 3 swimming pools open. The €100,000 left over could cover the cost of admin and allow for empty periods.

So there you have it, rather than allowing JC Decaux erect 10 billboards, why doesn't DCC itself consider erecting only 5? These could easily be accommodated along the N11 dual carriageway between the UCD Flyover and Donnybrook bus depot, as it passes by Montrose. (Unlike lower-income areas, for some odd reason the leafy N11 wasn't included the last time).

3 swimming pools for half the amount of new billboards? Tis a no-brainer :)


The €600,000 allocated has been stretched to cover expenses up until the end of August, so on a pro-rata basis, you could run the three of them for the year for €900,000. According to one of the councillors at the last council meeting (Niall Ring at 1h12 m on the webcast below), the expenses are variable during the year, and he estimates that the three pools could be run til the end of the year with an additional €106,000.

http://www.dublincity.public-i.tv/site/player/pl_compact.php?a=39009&t=0&m=wm&l=en_GB#the_data_area

On the website, click on the 'index points' heading, and jump down to item 14.

This is mind boggling and scarcely credible, not just because of the paltry sums involved, but because of some of the other issues it raises regarding privatisation and profitability and the provision of public services. (I know this is off topic, but it's vaguely planning related, and I figured Hutton for one would be interested. Actually, as further proof of DCC's "ethos", I suppose it is relevant).
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:01 pm

This story on thestory.ie with due credit given to this thread:

http://thestory.ie/2010/04/27/yet-more-strange-bike-scheme-related-decisions/
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby gunter » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:54 am

notjim wrote:
Irish Times http://bit.ly/aY3i7v

The council intends to exempt JC Decaux from applying for planning permission for the new advertising structures, a process which had resulted in a refusal by An Bord Pleanála of one-fifth of the company’s applications when the scheme was established.


That can be tested very easily. For €80 anyone can initiate a Section V referral to the local authority seeking a declaration as to whether a particular described development [even one intended to be carried out by, or on behalf of, the same local authority] is Exempted Development, or not. After 4 weeks from the date of submission, the matter can then be referred to Bord Pleanala, if the answer that comes back seems dodgy, or if the local authority hasn't issued any response in that time.

publicrealm wrote:Using Part 8 ("Local Authority Own Development") procedures for the erection of controversial commercial advertising - in order to avoid scrutiny by ABP - is tantamount to an abuse of process in my view, and is open to legal challenge. This is really stretching the concept of Local Authority Own Development.

The Part 8 provisions are intended to facilitate public works. Although there is sufficient wiggle room to allow abuse, any project, other than the limited ones set out in the Regulations, must exceed €126,000 (2001 figure - not sure if its index linked) to qualify.

Dodgy.


I think we're getting mixed up here, it is works under the €126,000 project cost threshold that are deemed Exempted Development under Part 8, where they are carried out by [or on behalf of] the local authority. Development that is carried out by a local authority and which exceeds that project cost is not exempt under Part 8.

Again a Section V referral should expose any dodgy interpretations of 'Exempted Development' by the local authority by bringing Bord Pleanala into the loop.

If Bord Pleanala were happy to deal with each advertising stand as a separate planning application the last time, and each unit individually would come in under the €126,000 cost threshold, the issue would hinge of whether the development is in fact a local authority development, or a commercial development. For Bord Pleanala to agree that the advertising structures are exempt from planning would effectively mean that their earlier decisions to refuse planning permission for one-fifth of the first batch were invalid determinations.

I can't see that happening and in any case, just threatening to use Section V seems to send a shiver up local authority spines, which is never a bad thing :)
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby publicrealm » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:30 am

[quote="gunter"]



I think we're getting mixed up here, it is works under the €126,000 project cost threshold that are deemed Exempted Development under Part 8, where they are carried out by [or on behalf of] the local authority. Development that is carried out by a local authority and which exceeds that project cost is not exempt under Part 8.QUOTE]



The article that kicked off this particular topic stated that DCC intended to use Part 8 to erect the monopoles. Part 8 of the Regs is intended to apply some (minimal) scrutiny to Local Auth Development in excess of certain thresholds (such as the capital cost threshold cited).

Miscellaneous Local Authority works below this threshold could be considered exempt in accordance with Section 4 of the P&D Act.

Either approach by DCC would be challengable in my view.

It would seem that the least worst option for DCC, if they were to pursue this course, would be Part 8 - in which case the elected members make the decision. So the best way to scupper this might be to talk to your local councillor?
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby lostexpectation » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:06 pm

so if they bypass an bord pleannala which professional reviews the planning implications of the metropoles etc? the councils own planners? the cllrs
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby publicrealm » Tue May 04, 2010 12:39 pm

lostexpectation wrote:so if they bypass an bord pleannala which professional reviews the planning implications of the metropoles etc? the councils own planners? the cllrs


The use of the Part 8 procedure requires that details of the proposal be published - and I expect the Council planners would give it the once over well prior to publication.

Again, I expect it would be planners who prepare the report on submissions received and the (Manager's) recommendation to the Members.

The Members ultimately make the decision - so they could overrule any reservations expressed by officials if they felt it was merited.
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby gunter » Tue May 25, 2010 6:39 pm

Apparently there's new Dublin City Council signage going up around the city, just heard a planner [Mary Conway] on the radio. The signage is ''really well designed'', should be interesting.

The first one is up today on ''Bernardo Square''

Bernardo Square??

Bernardo O'Higgins? . . . the father of the Chillian fishing fleet . . . why weren't we told about this?

Lets hope the second sign up tells us where Bernardo Square is :rolleyes:
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby PVC King » Tue May 25, 2010 6:44 pm

Bernardo legend had it became the first Presidente only because the influential father of his future wife needed to create a suitable position for him. The pescadores did however win The War of The Pacific in 1870.

I'd guess it is Bernardo's the charity who are based at Christchurch Square
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby gunter » Tue May 25, 2010 6:58 pm

Christchurch Square?

. . . when did we get all these squares?

Have I been in a coma?
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby tommyt » Tue May 25, 2010 7:12 pm

gunter wrote:Apparently there's new Dublin City Council signage going up around the city, just heard a planner [Mary Conway] on the radio. The signage is ''really well designed'', should be interesting.

The first one is up today on ''Bernardo Square''

Bernardo Square??

Bernardo O'Higgins? . . . the father of the Chillian fishing fleet . . . why weren't we told about this?

Lets hope the second sign up tells us where Bernardo Square is :rolleyes:


Maybe down by the lonely looking statue of Admiral Brown off Jon Rog Quay, plonked full square on the pavement like Joyce on Nth Earl street.

Is there a Dublin pan-andean quarter coming together unbeknownst to Archiseekers??

We could rename a certain HQ building down there Mengele House, if it's a 'noteworthy Europeans in the new world' angle being pursued:confused:
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby StephenC » Tue May 25, 2010 11:18 pm

The signage unit is actually in place at City Hall plaza...slap bang in some antique paving. Well designed. Rather large. And not the same as the Docklands units...variety it seems is the spice of this city.
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Wed May 26, 2010 6:45 pm

Voila.

Image

What is so immediately striking about the sign is how incongruous it is in the Dublin context. It's nothing short of bizarre to see proper directional signage in this city! Without question this has the potential to transform how visitors get about, and what sites they chose to visit. Fantastic to see.

The unit as a whole is certainly substantial. It looks overwhelming and faintly ridiculous up close, but from a distance it is appropriately scaled. Their success is entirely dependant on siting.

Image


When they have multiple fingers such as this one, they are very substantial and slightly gawky. I do hope sites have been sensitively chosen.

Image


The finger colour is a beautiful deep aquamarine blue - quite a bit darker than the db's blue. The anodyne font is very much of its time, but beautifully crisp nonetheless.

Image


Alas the covers for vacant finger sockets are crudely designed and jarr with the sharp lines of the installation. Also, while blank sockets may be needed to accommodate future uses, there should be two, three and four sided posts, which can be chosen according to location. At least that way we don't end up with entire sides of blank units as we have now.

Image


The base piece is also flimsy and unnecessary.

Image

In this instance a bollard appears to have been taken out of the granite paving slab and the hole used to insert the sign, but I get the impression the hole has 'shifted' inwards somewhat to move the post away from the kerbline...

At last tourists know where Dublin Castle and its equally elusive Chester Beatty Library are! What a novelty.

Image


Christ Church has deviated from its official spelling I see.

Image


All in all a most encouraging development. Apparently there's about 140 of them going in around the city core, so a massive undertaking. I hope some of the Docklands panels with You Are Here maps and fingers attached at the top are also included in the 'suite'. Indeed this model would be far more suited to a major nodal point like City Hall plaza.

So now that we're finally getting official signage in order, how about kicking the private sector into shape?

Image
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby alonso » Wed May 26, 2010 8:25 pm

they;re great and don't seem too different, if at all, from the Docklands ones? Are they?
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby reddy » Thu May 27, 2010 9:25 am

these signs look great. Well done DCC. As Graham said - now we need to take a look at private signage and overall street clutter.
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby missarchi » Thu May 27, 2010 1:29 pm

viva la graham sharp photos as always
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby StephenC » Fri May 28, 2010 10:25 am

From the Dublin City Council website:

Dublin wayfinding system points you in the right direction

Lord Mayor of Dublin, Councillor Emer Costello, will announce details of Dublin’s first integrated pedestrian ‘wayfinding’ system on Tuesday 25th May at 9am at Barnardo’s Square, Dame Street, Dublin 2.

The pedestrian ‘wayfinding’ system will comprise of twenty map panels and eighty fingerpost signs and will help locals and visitors to get around the city with ease. The maps and extracts from the map will also be available for widespread distribution as handheld maps which will be ideal for visitors to the city and will also be free to download from http://www.dublincity.ie.

The new ‘wayfinding’ system is provided through the civic amenity contract between Dublin City Council and JCDecaux. This contract includes the hugely successful dublinbikes scheme and a network of civic information displays. This system will replace the existing brown fingerpost signs and will be culturally focussed. It will be in place by late summer 2010.

“The new pedestrian ‘wayfinding’ system will create a great network of information and knowledge for visitors to Dublin and Dubliners alike. Anything that makes our city a more accessible and user friendly place to walk around is something to be welcomed and commended. These fingerposts and maps will enhance everyone’s ability to move around the city and to easily locate destinations across the city centre. Like dublinbikes it will be a wonderful addition to our civic amenities” said the Lord Mayor.


I didn't know this square was officially called Barnardo's Square. There is a small plaque on the plaza identifying the location of a house (now demolished of course) in which Barnardo's Children's Charity was first founded. Perhaps a streetname plaque is required as well.

Note the press release puts the total number of signs at 100, including 20 map panels. The release also mentions that brown finger post signage will be removed.
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Sat May 29, 2010 2:44 pm

Very nice signage indeed
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby StephenC » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:51 pm

The roll out of the new direction signage continues with many of the posts in place at various locations around the city. I imagine that the signs will be fitted over the coming weeks. For the most part the locations all make sense but there are some curious omissions. College Green, O'Connell Bridge, bottom of Dawson Street, Capel Street to name a few. However, it may be that some of these locations are earmarked for "panel" style units. Or it may be that the post just havent been erected yet. I'm probably just jumping the gun.

In some instance the new units do replace existing brown finger posts. The location in front of the Central Bank is an example. This is good news. Hopefully an initiative to "declutter" city streets (set out in the new City Development Plan) takes root quickly before any further expense of erecting poles and bollards takes place. However, I see the advertising blitz of various "attractions" continues unabated with the new Leprechaun Museum joining the National Wax Museum in installing brown finger signs around the city.

The next target for removal should be phone kiosks...surely a complete anachronism on city streets at this stage (although very handy for junkies to shoot up in). Eircom announced the removal of a swathe of boxes in 2008 or 2009 but the idea seems to have been dropped. Anyone hear anything further?
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:55 pm

The only reason that Eircom are hanging onto the boxes is that they're now using them for very lucrative advertising space. Virtually all of their boxes are now covered head-to-toe to blackout advertising for their broadband services - a ploy they've been using for a good while now. The difference on a street between an elegant, transparent box, and a leaden lump clad in orange tack is extraordinary. Who regulates these things?

Great to see the rollout of the wayfinding signage. Sadly it would appear there are no panels to be erected Stephen, though I could be wrong, as all post insertion works have been finished for a couple of weeks now - all of which, incidentally, have been conducted to an exemplary standard, as per the installion of the bike stations. We await the delivery of fingers!
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby StephenC » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:03 pm

A couple of weeks, really. And no panels. What a shame. In which, my comments about omitted areas stand.
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Re: New Advertising in Dublin

Postby newgrange » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:54 am

In relation to the JC Decaux deal, is there any site, anywhere in the city, where they have removed billboards as promised and required by the deal?
Let's not count places where buildings have been demolished and the billboards site no longer exists.
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