Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby ake » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:09 pm

Shame on all of you. Quit your nonsense.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:52 pm

THis thread is about relocating the Port. I wont get bogged down and answer another question on Irish history.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Rory W » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:44 pm

Maskhadov wrote: You only have to look to China to see what can be achieved in such a short period of time. They went from bog to high rise in just a matter of a few decades.


Yes there's nothing like a totalitarian dictatorship to get things done!

The effect of the troubles in Nothern Ireland had a massive effect on the South, economically speaking. Ireland was associated with terrorism as this was the only thing that ever made the foreign news and you're not going to get much foreign direct investment when you're associated with terror - thus stagnation.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby murphaph » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:57 pm

dodger wrote:Within ten years we'll have motorway / dual carriageway from Dublin to Cork and Galway. Perhaps this isn't quick enough for you and perhaps we're not the industrial powerhouse of Europe that Germany was but one thing we are not and that is pathetic. We are a country will full employment and working flat our in terms of infrastructure.

Have you ever heard of the National Development Plan, 2000-2006? That was supposed to see the roads you mention already completed. I admire your optimism, however Ireland is pathetic in many ways, most notably the ability to complete major infrastructure projects. The green white and orange tinted sunglasses can't mask it.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby murphaph » Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:08 pm

dodger wrote:It was McSharry's cutbacks that kickstaarted the economy not a cash splurge.

Ah come on, the economy was kickstarted because of a number of things. These include massively increased investment in Telecom Eireann to convert the trunk channels to all digital, investment in the RTC system (the so called binary education system-Universities and Technical Colleges working together to deliver graduates) and the lowering of corporate tax rates, not forgetting the finance act, 1987 (the legal basis for the IFSC was in that).

Lots of countries have cut spending-don't see a wirtschafstwunder in many of them though!
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby aj » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:00 pm

murphaph wrote:Have you ever heard of the National Development Plan, 2000-2006? That was supposed to see the roads you mention already completed. I admire your optimism, however Ireland is pathetic in many ways, most notably the ability to complete major infrastructure projects. The green white and orange tinted sunglasses can't mask it.



I will have to remember how pathetic Ireland is the next time i am driving to Belfast along the M1... I much preferred gettings stuck on the quays in Drogeda.. then in Dundalk and passing through every hole in the hedge village along the way...

If one thing holds this country back its negative attiudes of begrudgers. If we told someone 15 years ago Ireland would be have an economy growing at 6+ % a year , virtually full employment, a booming population and a goverment with more revenue than it knows what to do with they would not have said we we optimistic they would have said we where mad..... optimistim has been proven to be well placed

We had NO investment in infrastructure for decades.. the Dart did not have a single carriage added to the fleet for 20 years then it doubled within a year. I take the point that we may not be great at implemeting infrastructure projects... Why? because having money to spend on them is something relatively new to us and it is a learning progress... Maybe we are learning the lessons too slowly but we are still learning them in any case!
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby PVC King » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:12 pm

aj wrote:If one thing holds this country back its negative attiudes of begrudgers. If we told someone 15 years ago Ireland would be have an economy growing at 6+ % a year , virtually full employment, a booming population and a goverment with more revenue than it knows what to do with


That is exactly the point;

We the taxpayer have worked not only hard but equally smart for our employers; our employers have taken big risks to develop excellent EMEA and US & Asian markets.

The government have taken huge amounts of tax as illustrated so clearly by Rip Off Ireland and both worker and employer are stuck in traffic created by indecision and a lack of investment both transit and shipping facilities. We are not pathetic we are heroic to survive the dithering and incompetence visited upon us in infrastructural under-provision given the economic circumstances of the past seven years.

The development process surrounding our isolated Luas lines is metaphor for all that is wrong in this country; sadly nothing has been learned as the Cherrywood public inquiry will show.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby PDLL » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:40 pm

aj wrote:I will have to remember how pathetic Ireland is the next time i am driving to Belfast along the M1


Personally I don't see Ireland and its 'youthful' infrastructure as pathetic. Slightly embarrassing at times (it is good sometimes to listen or eavesdrop on what tourists really say about the country rather than we like to think they say)]http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1228/motorway.html[/url]

Time for more infrastructural funds - perhaps firearms for the Gardai would be a start.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby aj » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:13 pm

PDLL wrote:Personally I don't see Ireland and its 'youthful' infrastructure as pathetic. Slightly embarrassing at times (it is good sometimes to listen or eavesdrop on what tourists really say about the country rather than we like to think they say)]http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1228/motorway.html[/url]

Time for more infrastructural funds - perhaps firearms for the Gardai would be a start.



agreed on both counts
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Alek Smart » Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:16 pm

Its just another example of how reluctant the native civil engineering elite are to actually LEARN !
The issue of "Youthful Hi-Jinks" and our refusal to appreciate it came to the fore many years ago after the opening of phase two of the M50 when ayong boy was critically injured by a lump of debris thrown from one of the overbridges in the Tallaght region.
The boy later died in an unrelated but equally sad tragic manner which might not have occurred had he not been the victim of the original attack.
A quick flurry of Protective (and effective) Grilleing then took place as the proffessionals scrambled to cover their well padded exposed backsides.
Now,many years on we stagger blindly along the same road.
One can almost hears the various enginerers sighing with relief as they say...."Ah sure she was`nt killed anyway"...as they pack for the next conference in Brussels,Baghdad,or Benidorm.....
The simple message from all of these "Incidents" is that at this particular time in our social development we are incabable of dealing with the challenges presented by an exposed bridge across a busy arterial road.
Its pretty much the same challenge presented by a new Glass Bus Shelter which will recieve incredible amounts of energy directed into it until it lies totally smashed and awaiting a new equally glass replacement.
It`s not in our psyche to recognize or confront problems such as this nor to take any definitive action against the perpretrators in case it`s seen to paint us in a harsh light.
In the meantime Polititians get to waffle and daub ad nauseum about our place amongst the nations of The World.....!
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby jamesmcbennett » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:24 am

Firstly the idea of not doing things correct in the past is no reason for not doing anything in the future. Yes, in this country the M50 was decades over schedule, the port tunnel was not correctly planned, the red cow roundabout is a joke, but ireland can learn from its mistakes just like anyone can and move to tommorow.

Now to address the PD's proposal,
It is very very ambtious, but I don't have a problem with that, many projects in history of the world have been very ambitious, to give an example of something in my head, the london underground was decribed as radical back then as us travelling in flying cars today. Ambitious and radical ideas can be very good, that is never a negative point as some of you mention. If it's not feasible that is another thing, It would be uneconomical for our govt. to splash out on a Mag-lev billion euro train Dublin-Cork in less than an hour when the population does not support it. This proposal is possibly unfeasible in its present state.

In Saudi Arabia, one very good move by cities was that truck traffic was banned in city limits during hours of daylight, this forced the truck traffic to travel during night, and kept traffic flow moving during the day, It was an extremely sucessful. The proposal to move the port would have the benefit.

The port tunnel would not be redunant or dead weight, as if 'manhattan' appeared on the docklands, the traffic flow would need a high level of infrastucture.

The current Transport 21 plan faces so many problems by going through the city centre, if dublin revolved more around the docklands, we could for the first time plan ahead and make an underground, without bearing a fraction of the 34bn needed for transport 21

The georgian dublin would remain, and be part of history in 100 years time, and not be dotted with high-rise blocks needed for dublin's expansion. (the listed buildings would remain, but beside them new places would be developed and on large-scale) The city is growing and it has to grow somewhere, it will probably grow vertically in the city centre, ruining somewhat of what is there. This could be saved if the docklands land became available.

As previously mentioned, dublin port is near full capacity, and will be at full capacity by 2008, we are a growing city and a growing economy.

Most importantly, why is the port in the city centre? Purely and simply for reasons that are historically based. It would save time for truck drivers, essentially delivery costs to port should drop dramatically and access is much easier, city traffic would flow better. Nowadays, transport has improved, and there is no reason to have such valuable land taken up by a land use that is transferable, I wonder how the new port would change north dublin, but its impact on dublin city centre would be extremely positive.

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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Pepsi » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:50 pm

The more I think about it the more I think it's a good idea. We could build up at the port if we wanted to and leave our low rise historical Dublin spots alone. Will it really happen though? I can see lots of people objecting to it, both in the CC and Balbriggan.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:37 am

It should happen and the entire area should be high dentisty high quality apartments (for the accomadation).

It just takes a government decision and they can start to phase it out from 2008 over a number of years. A plan could be drawn up as to how to relocate the port between now and 2008.

Whatever happened to that Critical infastructure bill ? The number of objections would surely drop with it. The government is sitting on its ar$e and its time they thought big and acted quickly.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Morlan » Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:06 am

As I mentioned before, they already had an opportunity to build high-density away from historical Dublin in the docklands. What we have now is an new Sandyford.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Pepsi » Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:16 pm

Morlan wrote:As I mentioned before, they already had an opportunity to build high-density away from historical Dublin in the docklands. What we have now is an new Sandyford.


That's very true. I just hope it doesn't happen again. I guess time will tell.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby paul h » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:59 am

looks great sounds great
but our leaders do not have the liathroidi (balls!!) to go start anythin like this
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:29 pm

Did anyone see the program on RTE about the Docks ? it wa called " the bay" . It was really hyping the docks but I thought it was over rated. Someone reckoned the port should never be moved even though they admitted that having a port at the city is completely out of step with what the rest of the developed world is doing.

I think there may be another "The Bay" program on next week. lets hope they see sense then and put forward the case for moving the port.
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New Heart for Dublin Conference being held on 20th October 2006 at Dublin Castle

Postby hutton » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:54 pm

Just got this from Tom Morrissey today:

Please find attached a direct link to the New Heart for Dublin Conference
being held on 20th October at Dublin Castle. Please feel free to forward to
your circulation list.

http://www.newheartfordublin.ie

Regards.

Senator Tom Morrissey.



Speakers are to include: Tanaiste Michael McDowell, Senator Tom Morrissey, Senator David Norris, Frank McDonald, Sean 'Dublin Bay' Loftus, Jurgen Bruns-Berentelg, Tony Reddy, etc - its worth having a look at their site, but I'll post some of their blurb below anyhow. Suspect I'll see some of you there.

Hutton.




From website (http://www.newheartfordublin.ie):

A one day conference comprising Irish and international experts who will discuss a new vision for Dublin Bay, including its port.

THEN

On Thursday the 15th December 2005, Senator Tom Morrissey and Tanaiste Micheal McDowell TD launched a discussion document entitled "A New Heart for Dublin' in the Clarion Hotel on Dublin's north quays.

The document was intended to generate discussion about redeveloping Dublin Port as a centre for cruise liner traffic, as part of a major urban regeneration project.

"This has the potential to create a spectacular Manhattan-style approach to Dublin by sea. The plan draws on international experience in cities like Helsinki and Barcelona where run-down port areas have been transformed beyond recognition. It would breath life into Dublin Bay, which is currently an underused asset,” Senator Morrissey said at the time.

"Industrial port activity should be moved gradually from the already over-stretched Dublin Port to Bremore, north of Balbriggan. This would free-up 600-plus acres of Ireland's most valuable real estate for phased redevelopment, which could include housing, office accommodation, shops, waterfront promenades and green spaces."

The proposals also aims to deliver a truck-free city.

"When you consider that Irish imports and exports have grown five-fold since 1990, then it is really no surprise that Dublin Port currently has a capacity problem. The worrying reality of the situation is that the Port is likely to run out of capacity by 2008. The consequences for our economy will be profound as exporters and importers face increasing delays and costs in getting goods to market.

"This proposal by the Progressive Democrats is intended to spark debate on how best to develop Dublin Bay - a unique asset in the heart of our capital city. We welcome submissions and ideas from members of the public and interested groups on how the bay can be best used for the people of Dublin," Senator Morrissey concluded.

NOW
The proposal has been well received in all areas of society that further public discussion was obviously needed. The over-riding question asked by many people was "Now do we make it happen?" hence the sub-title of this important conference. Respected speakers from all over Europe have been brought together to discuss how we can move forward with this radical concept.

How have other cities dealt with these issues? How can it be funeded? How best to ensure the mistakes of the past are not repeated again? These questions and more will be addressed by the speakers in our Conference Schedule.

To book a seat at this important conference please click here.

“At at price in excess of €30 million per acre, Dublin Ports land bank of 660 acres could release between €15 billion and €20 billion on a phased basis to fund much needed infrastructure in the vicinity of the new port at Bremore”
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Re: New Heart for Dublin Conference being held on 20th October 2006 at Dublin Castle

Postby Morlan » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:51 am

Is it just me or is this just a bit of a pipe dream? It seems like something that might happen in 2100. Certainly not in our life time. We're only just managing to add a third lane to a section of the M50.

Don't get me wrong it sounds amazing but entirely unrealistic.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby malec » Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:12 am

^^ Exactly what I was thinking.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby lostexpectation » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:42 am

I think he should get the people of the waskai company to do his visuals, they are awful and not helping the project. Those skyscrapers are totally overblown even comapred to the real life examples of helsinki and the new highriselowirse docklands today http://www.newheartfordublin.ie/downloads/liffey_river_boat.jpg
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:38 pm

i agree, the graphics are absolutely appauling but we can defintley start work on relocating the port in the next few years.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby StephenC » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:30 pm

I applied to go to this conference thinking that it would be interesting and at the very least offer some new perspectives on how the city should develop. I just got the invoice for a delegate place this morning: €477. Personally I can't see how this is justified, is it to pay for the salubrious venue, the speakers (a number of whom are paid public representatives!), or is it simply a fundraiser for the PDs. Either way Im certainly priced out. "Be warned" anyone else who thinks they'd like to attend.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby PVC King » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:36 am

It appears that the PD's are not alone in promoting Bremore. The Dublin Regional Authority in their submission on the National Development Plan in April 2006 they list moving the port as a major objective link here


To achieve the Region’s aim to build a public transport system that is integrated, affordable,
accessible and one which meets the capacity of a growing city, a number of important investment
decisions will need to be taken in the short term.
In addition, the DRA believes that before the end of 2007 a number of important studies will need
to be completed to address the longer term public transport needs of the Region.
On-going planned investments such as Park and Ride facilities will continue during the period of
the NDP and these too have to be included.
One over-arching consideration is that the city centre in particular will experience significant
disruption once construction of the Metro, LUAS and rail interconnector projects get underway.
To address these issues, the DRA recommends that the NDP include the following measures in
the proposed Operational Programme for Economic and Social Infrastructure:
1. Transport Supporting Infrastructure
2. Strategic Studies
3. Current Measures
4. Traffic disruption
5. Docklands Flagship Project
4.5.1. Transport Supporting Infrastructure
It is estimated that significant capital investment which falls within the remit of the Local
Authorities will need to be allocated to the provision of supporting infrastructure which is essential if the following projects are to proceed within the time scale envisaged in Transport 21:
• Metro North
• LUAS lines
• DART and rail improvements
• Dublin Airport
• Dublin Port/Bremore
Specifically, the four Local Authorities will need to procure and construct local roads, park and
ride facilities, access to public transport facilities, bridges and works to divert traffic away from
major construction sites.


Unfortunately a search of the published plan yields this
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Tue May 08, 2007 9:26 pm

FF promises to study move of Dublin Port
06 May 2007 By Richard Curran

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=23447-qqqx=1.asp

Fianna Fail has moved one step closer towards backing the idea of moving Dublin Port to a new location.

The party’s manifesto – published last week – said if re-elected, it would examine the role of the port, taking into account its location and other factors.

The idea of moving Dublin Port to somewhere outside the city, such as north Co Dublin, was first mooted by the Progressive Democrats.

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has not knocked the idea when asked about it in recent months, but the party has never committed to such a radical move.

However, the manifesto says Fianna Fail will ‘‘undertake a comprehensive study of the role of Dublin Port taking account of location, overall ports policy, transport policy, urban development and the National Spatial Strategy’’.

The reference to a study comes at a time when Irish Continental Group, owner of Irish Ferries, is the subject of a takeover battle on the Irish Stock Exchange.

Investment group,On€51, which, together with Dublin Port, owns Greenore Port in Louth, has teamed up with the Cork-based shipping firm the Doyle Group to make an offer for ICG. This is in response to a takeover offer led by ICG’s chief executive Eamonn Rothwell.

ICG has a lease on 30 acres of land at Dublin Port, while the Doyle Group also owns around 30 acres beside it.

Dublin Port tried to join the On€51/Doyle consortium in recent weeks but did not get a positive response from the Department of Transport.

Industry sources say the ICG property at the port is of little value unless Dublin Port were to move to a new location.

The PDs plan was to develop the port area into a Canary Wharf-style location with offices and luxury apartments.


A study ? They should really be starting work on that ASAP. Glad to see another party has come around to the idea though.
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