Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby ConK » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:35 pm

Look at this ! Move Dublin Port to Balbriggin. . . . and build Manhatten in it's place ! Its radical. This would put an end to the high rise debate.
I think it would end up being full of bland apartment blocks. There is a token mention of our Georgain heritage thrown in for good measure but completely irrelavent.
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Re: Dublin Port

Postby kefu » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:50 pm

I'd be all in favour because I think we all know that the Dublin Port Tunnel will be entirely ineffective in the absence of full interchanges on the M50 and a proper Eastern Bypass.
It's certainly something worth thinking about although the denizens of Balbriggan probably wouldn't be thrilled with the idea.
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Re: Dublin Port

Postby PVC King » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:18 pm

The PDs have assembled a most dishonest document claiming that land values are worth €billions.

They as well as everyone else knows that all of the lands in question are held on a leasehold basis; the lands would be worth €billions if held on a an enencumbered freehold basis by the Dublin Port company but they are not.

What the document basically does is dangle a carrot in front of oue eyes in the full knowledge that it is not attainable; given the benefits involved it is particularly cynical.

The end game here is that if it is forced through the taxpayer will have to fund a new deep water port whilst a number of leaseholders including coal merchants that haven't importeed anything in years stand to benefit with the lions share of the gains.

Andrew unfortunately you will be waiting a while longer for your taller City unless something radical is done in terms of CPO legislation.
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Re: Dublin Port

Postby Maskhadov » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:37 pm

i posted this on boards.ie a while back.. the article was in the sunday tribune. The PD's came up with it i belive.There was mixed reaction to this. It would make a mockery of the port tunnel.

The residents in Balbriggin werent happy with the whole idea

**edit
I didnt see the artists impression. Well its certainly an area for the highrises providing it was done properly. I would be all for it. I just wonder about flooding
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Re: Dublin Port

Postby Niall » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:15 pm

:) What an excellent idea!!! All for it.
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Re: Dublin Port

Postby Maskhadov » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:24 pm

it has 20 years as the time frame >eek<
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Re: Dublin Port

Postby Pepsi » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:25 pm

I would be for that idea too. It seems ambitious.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby millennium » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:17 am

This is an ambitious idea that incorporates a vision of a Dublin which wishes to make a statement about where it wants to be, and be seen to be, in the 21st century. It is certainly more Boston than Berlin but with a sprinkling of a SanFrancisco or a Sydney to try and raise the City profile even higher. The City and the Bay should complement each other and not turn their backs on each other as largely happens at present. The Loop Line bridge and the development of the Port of Dublin have effectively separated the City from the Bay for the last 200 years. While recent docklands developments have retaken possession of part of the Port, the Port itself is relentlessly expanding.
The Bay should return to being the lung of the City rather than the bladder.
Yes I know some of the images are crude and to many Planners the whole idea is presposterous. However, look what the island of Singapore has achieved in less than 40 years in an island state with no resources of its own. It can be done. It's a question of belief!
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby PDLL » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:35 pm

Would have my support. I love, however, the modelling of Dublin on Helsinki. Objectively, it seems a fair comparison in terms of size, geographical positioning etc. What is absent, however, is an understanding of the difference between the Irish mentality an dthat of the Scandanavians. The former sit around talking bxxxxxks and do nothing; the latter get off their asses and do things. What ever happened to the traces of Vicking blood in us I will never know.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby GregF » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:18 pm

This is only a ''carrot'' as there is an election probably next year. This is hypocrtical of the PDs/Fianna Fail advocating high rises for the docks and all sorts of other much needed developments, when McDowell hindered the Natioanl Stadium calling it a Ceascescu stlye complex and Bertie calling Spencer Dock a monstrosity. They are a long time in government and its a last minute rush promising all these things as there is fuck all to show bar roads and houses.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby anto » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:35 pm

millennium wrote:This is an ambitious idea that incorporates a vision of a Dublin which wishes to make a statement about where it wants to be, and be seen to be, in the 21st century. It is certainly more Boston than Berlin but with a sprinkling of a SanFrancisco or a Sydney to try and raise the City profile even higher. The City and the Bay should complement each other and not turn their backs on each other as largely happens at present. The Loop Line bridge and the development of the Port of Dublin have effectively separated the City from the Bay for the last 200 years. While recent docklands developments have retaken possession of part of the Port, the Port itself is relentlessly expanding.
The Bay should return to being the lung of the City rather than the bladder.
Yes I know some of the images are crude and to many Planners the whole idea is presposterous. However, look what the island of Singapore has achieved in less than 40 years in an island state with no resources of its own. It can be done. It's a question of belief!



Why is it more " Boston than Berlin"? Berlin is has plenty of high rise building. Anyway this hackneyed phrase is used more for comparing Europe's high tax welfare economy to America's low tax low welfare model.( Kind of ironic because in America Boston is in "Taxachussets")
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Pepsi » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:45 pm

I mentioned above that I would be for the idea but to be honest I can't see it happening. If they do manage to relocate the port we WILL end up with the same stuff we are already building (Spencer and Grand Canal Dock). I wouldn't get my hopes up. People will object to the whole thing and most likely win.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby ihateawake » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:26 pm

this rekindles my hope for a functional dublin, its a beautiful proposal and would increase quaility of life to no end, the old part of the city would really be complimented by the new, pollution and congestion would go down, it would draw in more international business and spark new local enterprise... this city NEEDS this, as does the country.

how possible is this? what can be done to keep this on track and stop the proposal from flattened into sandyford industrial estate with a seaside view and congestion feeding underground parking, or am i getting my hopes up as this is all just an election ploy? ill have myself a revolution:mad:
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby GregF » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:07 pm

The image in the Metro newspaper looks quite good. Kinda a Canary Wharf/New York look about the buildings . Boats/Barges on the river and all. Looks cool.
But when you look closely and see the 2 ESB chimney stacks placed right among the towers. Its kinda a rushed together whimsical photoshop montage just to catch the publics eye. Nothing will come of it.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby ake » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:19 pm

This is alot of ridiculous nonsense. Pure and utter fantasy nonsense. No government in ireland in the whole of the 20th century had the competence or desire to carry out such grandiose world class projects, and that included all the celtic tiger governments which had the opportunity to. That situation shows no hint of a beginning of an end to it's persistence. Anything which is more than decent is doomed before it gets started. As for T21- if I ever see a dublin underground in my lifetime, I vow to eat my hat.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:21 pm

Dublin port will reach capacity by 2008. They will want to futher infil the area after that. I think the nation should take the brave and right decision to relocate the port out north of Dublin.

The NIMBY brigade will have a field day but at least the north dublin location can avail of the rail line that connects the whole east coast and should in theory reduce trucks on the road. This project is of national importance and a few hardliners shouldnt be allowed to stop the project.

It would mean a cleaner Dublin with hardly any trucks on the cities streets.

It would mean a major boost for the economy of Ireland and bring the house/apartment costs down in Dublin.

It would result in Dublin being a city of consequence.

It would relaunch the city as being a modern international one and the tall buildings would demonstrate a air of confidence about the nation. (i have always been a firm backer of high rises in Dublin and was just wondering where to put them).

The spin offs are endless. Fair enough the graphics need work but its a fantastic idea that captures the imagination of what the city could be like.

I just blame Brian Boru for kicking out all the northern europeans who had the genes to go ahead with projects like this (and other things like the tuskar tunnel). We will probably debate this issue for another decade before going ahead with it.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby notjim » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:32 pm

i have to say that picture in the times was awful, it remindes you that crappy skyscrapers kind of scattered can look really awful: in fact tall buildings are only really dramatic when you spend alot on them and you are short of space to put them. everyone forgets that manhattan isn't manhattan because of the tall buildings, lots of us cities have them: the point is it has a ton of housing, lots of great seven story areas, a great park, some beautiful older buildings, great zoning and the really tall buildings are crowded into midtown and the financial district.

as for the port; as a dubliner, for now anyway, you have to be nervous about anything that narrows the employment base, but, yes, the current preeminence of dublin is stupid, maybe not the big bang the pds are selling for whatever reason, but there ought to be more development of other ports and, yes, a gradual scaling back of dublin port.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Pepsi » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:43 pm

One of those buildings shown in the photo is in Toronto.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby anto » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:43 pm

I can't help thinking this is just bluff from the PDs. They've been in power for most of the last 20 years and look at the mediocre architecture in the docklands.

The port tunnel was designed and built on the assumption that the port tunnel was remaining where it is. If they were going to move it. It should have happened then,

A big Transport plan was unveiled a few weeks ago with no mention of this. Land use and transport planning should go together.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby notjim » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:15 pm

Pepsi wrote:One of those buildings shown in the photo is in Toronto.


my point exactly!
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:43 pm

i think the issue about the graphics is a silly one and shouldnt be discussed. Of course they just jumped a load of high rises on the docks. It is only designed to give an idea to people. The PD's as a political party dont have access to a lot of graphical artists.

When i read these stories they are both exciting and sad. Exciting that something like this could go ahead but sad because of the ar$e ways planning in the country. No other country in the world would have built the port tunnel and then started to discuss moving the port within a few months of the tunnel opening.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:20 pm

Cynic alert - perhaps the pds are after ff's developer friends donations....
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Morlan » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:07 pm

It's NOT feasible.

Dublin port is much larger, compact, and more complicated than Helsinki port. It's well over twice the size as Helsinki Port.

Dublin
Image

Helsinki
Image

About 40% of Helsinki Port is open space for 40ft containers. The rest is taken up with large factories and warehouses. Relocating these facilities wouldn't be all that difficult.

Dublin port is a different story. A lot of the port has discharging facilities for oil, chemicals and petroleum with an intricate network of pipe lines. There's also a slight matter of a large power plant and Dublin's state-of-the-art sewage plant. There's is no way these could be relocated. The costs of relocating these facilities would be astronomical.

Also bear in mind that the Dublin Port Company is in the planning stages of reclaiming 21 hectares of land in order to expand the port.

Progressive Democrats - nice try, but no cigar.
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Maskhadov » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:18 pm

Morlan wrote:It's NOT feasible.

About 40% of Helsinki Port is open space for 40ft containers. The rest is taken up with large factories and warehouses. Relocating these facilities wouldn't be all that difficult.

Dublin port is a different story. A lot of the port has discharging facilities for oil, chemicals and petroleum with an intricate network of pipe lines. There's also a slight matter of a large power plant and Dublin's state-of-the-art sewage plant. There's is no way these could be relocated. The costs of relocating these facilities would be astronomical.

Also bear in mind that the Dublin Port Company is in the planning stages of reclaiming 21 hectares of land in order to expand the port.

Progressive Democrats - nice try, but no cigar.



The cost of relocation would be high YES but the benefits would be also ASTRONOMICAL. A proper evaluation of relocating the port should be undertaken by a professional body or some committe.

They are about to apply for more space for the port but that doesnt mean it should be given the green light. They can say no and start to move certain parts out of the port.

Anything is possible providing there is the political will
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Re: Dublin Port - Feasible or not?

Postby Morlan » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:26 pm

"political will".. that's the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea and I'd love to see it happen, but realistically, our government wouldn't have to balls to undertake such a large project.
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