The Great 1930s Scheme

Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby archipimp » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:10 pm

i always liked on these roads how all the houses were the same and yet all differant in little ways,although one of those front extensions you showed is crazy!by the way does anyone know why these houses only have one window upstairs?
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:42 pm

From what I remember of being in the houses, all of the Mk1's, Mk2's and the Mk3's have just the one bedroom across the front originally, some with the hotpress in here too. However lots of the houses have had little additions over the years some fitting in an extra bedroom, some sticking a bathroom in there. My grandfathers house on cashel road in crumlin didnt have a bathroom as new, it was outside. Not sure if it was a mk1 or mk2 but ill check it out tomorrow! certainly wasn't a mk3 i dont think.

The bigger 3 bed houses in inchicore had the 'box room' as we call it at the front of the house as well as the master bedroom.


Now here's another question: At the corners of some of the roads eg captains road and stannaway road, there are bigger houses again. They have 2 windows on each level at the front, one to either side of the front door. there style houses are only built on the corners... were they built at the same time as the others? they look older yet that wouldnt make sense as they fit in perfectly with the estate
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:49 pm

Hello Dave. I've enjoyed your posts, and your obvious passion for these houses! It's great to see such commitment and interest in something that most people just turn a blind eye to.

I'm very surprised the houses of Cashel Road were only built with an outside toilet as late as c. 1930 - presumably they had interior washrooms at least? I must check out the corner houses you refer to.

Thanks for the link you posted in your other thread - fantastic interiors!

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Property websites are increasing helpful for allowing sneaky views of original interiors!

There is such little appreciation for the original joinery in these sturdy little houses: simple, elegant and pleasing to the eye. I recently spent about eight hours stripping back years of paint from a 1950's handrail similar to that above, and in spite of the gruelling process, it came up beaufifully once sanded and stained as original. The difference these small improvements can make is enromous - the same regarding Bakelite handles, light switches, architraving, steel windows etc.

Unfortunately more of this is still happening as we speak.

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Surely works of this scale require planning permission, in which case why is DCC permitting such unashamedly insensitive and inappropriate alterations to residential stock? And the original boundary walls swept clean away - now what monstrous tack can we expect in their place?

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Contrast the lop-sided disaster on the above corner house with its colleague opposite.

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What even remote connection does tan brick have to 1930's pebble-dashed housing?! This coloured material in particular is bizarrely popular in Crumlin, and is destroying the place by stealth. Obviously there's no objection to people extending their homes, but the ham-fisted manner of the vast majority of jobs leaves a lot to be desired. Not even a more considerate wine brick is ever used to tie in with existing string courses and dressings.

And speaking of wine brick (you probably know this one Dave), there is the most delightful little gem of a building on Cashel Road in Crumlin, a stone's throw from the three-school 'campus' in the area. Seemingly once built as a health centre or community hall, today it stands apparently idle or at best underused as a modern-day health centre for the South Western Area Health Board (which unfortunatly on first glance somes across as SWAB)

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A delightful neo-Palladian design, it features little curved wings (seemingly since heightened to stop people sitting on them), an imposing Lutyens slated roof, and crowned with crisp and elegantly austere chimneys.

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As is typical, the only steel windows to survive are those not being used or otherwise inaccessible - in this case in the charming central gable.

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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:49 pm

All of the cast iron rainwater goods survive.

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As do the faintly Art Nouveau boundary furnishings.

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Supported by elegantly profiled little feet atop a rendered concrete base.

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It's sited as an (admittedly underwhelming) focal point on a green on Cashel Road.

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Such a shame the state it's in. Given the abuse I got from a passing car while taking the pics, looks like it'll probably stay that way too.

There's other examples of these well-designed public buildings in similar estates.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:01 pm

Well Im heading out on a little expedition in a while around Crumlin on the rothar and ill take a few photos of those corner houses see what ye make of them. Yes the health clinic is a lovely little building, and unfortunately it does suffer a lot of negligance.

Just a couple of interesting little note about the map you have posted above. Im sure its quite obvious to most people, but ill metion it anyway. Crumlin was beautifully designed to depict a celtic cross, and the majority of the roads from the 1930's sceme are named after monastary associations.... The one that stands out like a sore thumb that isn't is Captains road. The name of captains road derives from the original captains lane, where the 'captain' of a grand house around where brookfield estate was murdered one night. The lane was used to join windmill road to the mills along the poddle, at the current Lower Kimmage Road. The lane ran pretty uch in the direction of Captains road, but towards the kimmage end took the path of the current Ravensdale Drive...

Which leads me to another point... On most maps, including you map above, there is 'Rathland road' in the area where cashel road and captains road meet. This road has been called Ravensdale Drive for the last 20 years or so, yet is still referred to as Rathland Road on many maps and on all post to our house from the government offices etc. The name ravensdale comes from one of the many flour mills that were along the poddle. Some others included Loder Park Mills, and Larkfield Mills.


However Im straying from the 1930's scheme now... lets go back.

I mentioned above that Crumlin is built in the shape of a celtic cross. 2 other areas with similar design thoughts were Ballyfermot, and Cabra.

Lets look at Ballyfermot first. The stone on the roundabout has 3 names for Ballyfermot in irish, one of which translates as 'The Town of Conflict'.... people from Ballyfermot dont like to admit this translation. Now if we look at the map of ballyfermot, we'll discover a very deliberate design feature.... It's built in the shape of a sword.... Town of Conflict.... Sword.... Have a look for yourself:

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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:06 pm

The other one that I've heard about, but dont know the full story of is Cabra. The story I originally heard was that Cabra before its investment in the 30's and 40's was an increadabely run down area. The basica idea was that this sceme would give new hope, new life, and new beginnings to cabra. And so as a result, Cabra was built in the shape of a tree, to display all of these qualitys. Again I dont know alot about tis area but im sure somebody else could shed some light on it.

If anyone else is interested in history of the Kimmage/Crumlin area i can throw another post up tomorrow. Although im tending to stray away from the '1930's scheme'
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby alonso » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:51 pm

Marino is the other great 1930's estate, built in the same design. Sorry I don't seem to be able to post a map or satellite link. I've heard 2 reasons for the Celtic Cross design. The first is to do with the rise of Nationalism at this time and the desire to promote Ireland as a country post independence. The second is to commemorate the Eucharistic Congress which happened in Dublin in the 30's.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:07 pm

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Here's those corner houses on the corner of Captains Road and Stannaway Road. They're in quite a few different locations around the estates and link the roads together quiet nicely. Were they built at the same time??


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Here's one on the opposite corner, one of few which is pretty much in original condition, apart from the front door etc.


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Further up captains road just after the right turn onto armagh road, are these houses. There's a few terraces of the scattered around, but not to many. They're similar in style to the bigger corner houses above, but not identical. Again I dont know a whole lot about them only where they are.


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At the very end of Captains Road, just before Windmill Road, we have one of these prized corner houses. As pointed out by graham above, these houses were given 'special treatment' from day one. Being on a corner they had bigger gardens, and often decorated that little bit better with that maroon coloured brick. Also most fo the corner houses were Mk3's, the biggest of the houses, (although this one isn't) even on a road of Mk1's on one side and Mk2's on the other, these bigger houses will be plonked on the corners. Unfortunately not all of these houses are receiving 'special treatment' anymore......


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And finally in this batch of captains road photos, directly across the road from the above house, there's a beautiful Mk2 (I think, can't see the chimney forgot to look).
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:14 pm

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Ok now we skip around the corner onto Cashel Road. As graham pointed out the health clinic opposite the 1st green on the road, Ill point out the former church on the 2nd green. Its marked down as a church on maps as we can see from the above post, but the pictures tell otherwise...


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Crumlin Hall is the name above the door. Dont know how long it's been like this, or I can't even say I've ever seen the front door open... Just like the health clinic, the condition oft he building says a lot about it...


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Just take a look at the sade gates into it, and that awful eyesore of a drive... Not to mention the pillars.


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Finally I'll throw in a couple of photos of the schools on armagh road. There's 3 schools on armagh road, and one around the corner on captains road. There's also a convent on armagh road and around the corner from that on stannaway drive, and there's st. colombus house on armagh road. All of these buildings are within 5 minutes of each other, and are all beautifully maintained for working buildings. Unfortunately the future of the Armagh Road schools doesn't look too secure. Time will tell of what is to happen these wonderful buildings.


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the second school one Armagh road, opposite the above. My favourite of all the buildings in the area. Unfortunately my poor photography work doesn't capture it very well.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby kefu » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:16 pm

Great stuff lads, keep it coming. A part of Dublin history that's rarely remarked upon except of course in Ruth McManus' great book 'Shaping the Suburbs'.
Dave, I'm curious what you mean about Ballyfermot being shaped like a sword. But sort of see what you mean about Cabra: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dublin&ie=UTF8&ll=53.364408,-6.281948&spn=0.010397,0.028839&z=15&om=1
There are some wonderful houses in this part of Cabra and in general they are in far better repair than those in Crumlin. There's also a lovely red-brick church, which when I finally get a decent camera will take some pictures of.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:40 pm

Can you not see the shape of the sword above within the red shape?? Landen and Decies roads form the 'blade', with Lally road acting as the 'point'. To the left of the image you can see Thomond road and Muskerry road forming a handle..... It takes imagination but it is certainly there!
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:22 pm

I can't see it either lol. More a dagger perhaps? A slashhook maybe? :eek:

Ah the schools - thanks for the pics Dave. Yes they're three very interesting buildings - two stripped classical and one wine-bricked modernist, the latter finished in 1939 I think. Is either of the two former boys schools in use anymore? One is in pretty poor condition, with the other used by the health board I think - decked out in all-singing PVC a few years ago :rolleyes:. All combined, the schools form an oddly mounmental air to what is an otherwise modest residential suburb.

I'd imagine the big corner houses with brick dressings are a little later than the stocky all-render houses, though it's hard to say. I think there's similar ones around Stannaway Avenue too, near the park. Lots of great front doors around here too, esp on private houses. If there's a single good thing to be said about aluminium infill porches, it's that they usually saved the front door itself from being replaced, so many have survived thus far. Alas the lure of the heritage stained glass brigade is proving increasingly strong of late. Hope to get some more pics soon.

Agreed about Marino alonso. Generally nicer than Crumlin - it's amazing what a few trees and more intimate road widths can achieve. There's much more of a garden suburb feel there.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby AndrewP » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:46 pm

If I'm not mistaken there's a wine-coloured brick building on Brian Road in Marino that's identical to the Cashel Road one. It's on the bit that faces the Malahide Road and is in a much happier state of repair.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:17 pm

djasmith wrote:Can you not see the shape of the sword above within the red shape?? Landen and Decies roads form the 'blade', with Lally road acting as the 'point'. To the left of the image you can see Thomond road and Muskerry road forming a handle..... It takes imagination but it is certainly there!


I'm guessing you're thinking of something like a pirate's cutlass?

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Or was it something a little more exotic, like this late 19th century beauty from the Democratic Republic of the Congo?

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:D
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:35 pm

:eek:


A few more views of two of the three schools on Armagh Road in the morning sun, all built around the late 1930s.

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This building probably has the greatest architectural ambition - the others are relatively predictable. Even this is no great shakes, but like its colleagues is well-proportioned and suitably imposing for what were some of the largest schools in the city. Such a shame all its original windows - probably of steel - have been lost.

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Lovely Mannerist entrance columns - always liked these.

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And a distinctive - if underwhelming - cupola perched on top.

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The adjacent school is more textbook watery neoclassical; it looks like a seaside Victorian convent in Dun Laoghaire.

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Sadly mauled with PVC a few years ago.

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Its austere chimneys and hipped roofs cut an imposing silhouette.

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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:16 pm

is the bottom pictures you have taken not just a convent?? I was always under the impression that it was, St. Colombus house or something like that... The third school on armagh road is in off behind the redbrick school It can barely be seen from the road. Ive been at many a feis in that school! There's a 4th school then around the corner on captains road. I was nearly sure that building was a convent, but I could be wrong. ill check it out.

Scoil Colm which you also have pictures of is a lovely building, but Ive often looked at those columns and I still reckon there's something missing from the tops of them, they're just not finished or something.... look at them.

Anyway Scoil Colm is the Christian Brothers boys school, and on the opposite side of the road are the girls schools. Ive heard many many stories about those schools, but one in particular comes to mind when you mention the windows of the building.. It was that of a young boy in communion class, who was being taught the 'old fashioned way', this unfortunately proved too much for him and he jumped out the top floor window and broke both of his legs.

One of the schools (not sure which) wasn't built until the mid to late 40's, due to building supplies shortages during the war. The village end of Armagh road from the schools up to the church was orinally planned just like the rest of crumlin, but in 1939 when the war broke out, Watchorn & Company (one of the main building companies in crumlin, and a very old family from the village) had to stop work due to the shortages. It was only after the war that building resumed with houses of a more modern style on that road.

Another interesting point about Crumlin is that it also had 2 other schools in its day. There was the National school on St. Agnes Road, which was where the 'country children' from Crumlin, in the days before the 1930's scheme all went to school. Much later on Greenhills college was based in the old school in Crumlin for a couple of months until the building of what is now greenhills college was finished. This was only ever a temporary thing though.


Gawd I could waffle for hours about Crumlin......but I wont! Hope the above is of some interest to somebody, and please do correct me on any points, as all the above is learned from word of mouth, Im still only 17 and remember not a lot about the area personally!
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:34 pm

No Dave you're probably right about the convent - I've always just assumed it was a school, but it'd make sense for it to be a convent, not least beacuse it looks like one, but also as there'd hardly be three primary schools clustered right beside each other. It seems the one behind on Captain's Road is the post-war school - it has a later air to it. Yes I too have heard stories of what went on the the CBS on Armagh Road - apparently you could hear the roaring of brothers from passing outside on the street :eek:. Its columns are not unfinished though - they're just modernist in style.

Where was the school on St. Agnes Park do you know? On the site of the row of shops perhaps? This road has always fascinated me, because as you say you can see very clearly the interrruption of the War in terms of the style of house built. The transition from an essentially Edwardian design to much more modern house styles is clearly evident.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby Devin » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:16 pm

That Scoil Colm is quite impressive. Would possibly deserve to be a Protected Structure. The facade anyway.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:42 pm

It's a good piece alright. The red brick girls school across the road is also an attractive collection of buildings - needless to say the girls, as usual, got the dressed, sensitive treatment, with a bombastic monolith reserved for boys...

Looking down from the schools is the delightful St. Agnes Park, the main avenue leading down to the village and church (bizarrely built off-axis). Essentially it links the Crumlin Scheme to the existing old village.

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No doubt its trademark c.1950 concrete lampposts will get the chop before long :(

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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:30 pm

The original National school in Crumlin was on St. Agnes' Road, not St. Agnes' Park. Up until the corporation schemes, St. Agnes Park was virtually non-existant. For a small stretch it ran out of the village opposite where the church is now, and turned a sharp right and down towards the modern stannaway. This was the Captains Lane. This is pretty much what St. Agnes' Park follows today up until it reaches armagh road.

Another thing to remember is that Captains Lane was there long before the church. St. Agnes' church as we know it today was not built until 1935, which is why it probably explains why the road leading up to it is not directly opposite. The road was there before the church. However I have seen pictures looking towards the church before it opened while it was all being built, and it would indicate that the church is directly in front of the road.

The Original St. Agnes' Chapel was down towards the Ashleaf end of the village, right beside the old National School which I referred to earlier. The national school still stands today and I think its used by fás. As far as Im aware though the chapel is gone. Ill go on another photo taking expidition later on today for you all.

Looking down from the schools is the delightful St. Agnes Park, the main avenue leading down to the village and church (bizarrely built off-axis). Essentially it links the Crumlin Scheme to the existing old village.


Just a very minor note on the above; The old village was not down the end where the church is today, It was at the other end, up where we turn out as if to head to the hospital today. On that corner (there was only a right turn, no left) was, and still is today, the old protestant church, St. Marys. Right beside that is another old school, naturally known as 'the protestant school', while 'the catholic school' was at the other end of the village as Ive just mentioned.

Opposite St. Marys church used to lie the old police barricks, but that was demoloshed to make way for the turn onto what is today 'Bunting Road'.

It's all very hard to imagine, but ill try and throw together a small drawing to show what i mean with the various locations of buildings, and how much the 1930's scheme changed a lot of things around Crumlin with regard to schools, churches and convents. (there's a lot more than you think - 6 schools, 3 churches and 2 convents!!)
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:42 pm

Indeed! Thanks for the clarifications and info. Of course now I remember the National School on St. Agnes Road - it's an imposing stock brick affair with red brick dressings, dated 1916 or 1918, can't remember which.
Apologies for mixing up Road and Park - spend my life getting corrected on it :o. So do you mean that the church was actually built to align with the former Captain's Lane, and not in fact St. Agnes Park which didn't even exist at the time? As far as I know, its early red brick houses are post-war, c.1947-50, which would tie in with your thesis.


Yes isn't the old village of Crumlin just wonderful. It's amazing the country character it still has. The part closest to the church is as you say the 'modern' village, essentially purpose-built roundabout 1950. Sounds like the residents of the Crumlin Scheme had to suffer with no facilities, just like today, for over a decade.

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Lovely crisp, simple lines.

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While the old village merges directly into it.

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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:55 pm

As for St. Mary's Church, as far as I know it's protected and is probably the finest - and most bizarre - building in the area :)

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It's textbook 'English' 1930s isn't it - you could tell it was a Protestant church a mile off.

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What a gem. Unfortunately some ugly boundary wall issues have emerged since these pictures were taken two years ago - they don't look promising.

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The old, seemingly 18th century, St. Marys? next door is equally fascinating.

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And very sinister...

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:eek:

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It's wonderful that this layered, more organic built history survives beneath the processed development - now in itself of historical note - of the 1930's Scheme.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:02 pm

Ah it's a while since I've been on here! A search on Richmond Barricks (part of my research into how the council houses came about in Inchicore in 1929) showed up the fantastic thread on Collins Barricks just below.

Just a couple of interesting points on the above..

The 'new' st mary's church just above was the last building to be built from 'Dolphin Brick' which came out of the quarry at Dolphins Barn. Thus it was one of the few building projects which ran on through the war in Crumlin (the war put a stop to the 1930's scheme as mentioned above). I dont know a whole lot about Dolphin brick but I know that its hard to come by now and it can fetch nice proces when buildings are dismantled that contain it.

The old St Mary's church is also very interesting... there was a fás programme a few years ago which did some restoration work on the building. Not sure what exactly went on, but that front door was put in, and up on top of the steeple you can see the modern section was constructed.... i still can't see why this was put up other than as a training excerise.

Maybe somebody else from the area might know??

As for the quarries around Crumlin, there were lots of them! In more recent years there were lots of problems constructing the Manortown community centre (just east of the Crumlin Cross). It took something like 3 or 4 go's to get a solid enough foundation on what we know as the 8 acres park (dont know the real name). This was due to the fact that all that land is just filled in quarries, and is very vrey soft ground, and very liable to flooding. St. Damians school had similar problems much earlier.
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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:00 pm

Just an update on the amazing work on The Bru at the bottom of the village. I don't pass it too often I cut through captains road etc, but I was amazed when i did the other day! It's looking well!

Not exactly the 1930's scheme, but the scheme had HUGE effects on this building as a school in the 1930's.

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Re: The Great 1930s Scheme

Postby djasmith » Fri May 02, 2008 4:44 pm

Crumlin Hall on Cashel Road got a facejob recently (hideous in my opinion). What it was before is in another post above.

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