Point Village

[Rusty Cogs]

The Shell Garage beyond the point depot (along East Wall Road) is due to close Feb 28th. It currently sits on the north end of a site encompassing the point depot which is all due for development. Does anyone have any details as to what is planned for this site. There was talk of a tall building to rival/complement the U2 tower accross the Liffey as well as the usual exciting mix of hotels, apts & car parks.

[Paul Clerkin]

http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2004/000277.html

There are other stories in the archives

[Lotts]

Here's the section 25 relating to the area

[Rjajc]

What about point village?

I really wish a cluster of high rises could spring up here - like a lot of people.

What I can't get over - and I'm sure this is a well worn and age old rant - is that its obviously meant to be a 'landmark' building - but its only 100metres tall.

I can just see it: headline news on CNN '100 metre, yes that's right 100 metre, building planned for Dublin'. Who do they think will go 'wow' outside a few initial irish reactions ?

US tourists will see it as something of the suburbs and Europeans will go 'how provincial' - it could be something in bloody Croydon to our friends to the east.

Why is an Irish landmark a scaled down landmark?
I don't believe in 'context' because we need to stand out globally.

I know tall does not equal good - but in the 'popular imagination' I believe it does.

Why cant it be the best city quarter in the world? Not just 'ok'. If you start by aiming high you're on the right track.

The best stuff is the best stuff. Mediocrity is mediocrity

As regards height restrictions:

Why is very tall inappropriate for Dublin? What makes sky more appealling? What does inappropriate for an area mean when its every area? Why must people live in meath when high rise might just solve some of the endless suburban sprawl?

The scaling down of the scotch hall building by one floor just shows how ridiculous it gets.

Rant ends.

ps this is a great site.

[Rjajc]

and by 'why must people live in Meath' I am of course referring to people who commute to Dublin - nothing wrong with Meath for Meath's sake! - but Meath towns as Dublin suburbs is scary.

[ihateawake]

wow, couldnt agree more, there is no good reason for resisting high rise yet there are countless reasons for embracing it. dublin is extremely backward when it comes to building tall, the mentality is crap! ideas like everywhere is the wrong area and one more floor is the destruction of our skyline are really hindering progress, this is a laughable example of a "21st century city"

[lexington]

I am curious if this 'lust' for highrise is blinding many persons to the quality of design being imposed by these projects. So far, few high-rises proposed in the recent flurry across Ireland, have satisfied what I (personally) would constitute as a genuinely landmark character (I don't mean auctioneer landmark, I mean real landmark). Perhaps it draws back to the age old debate of what constitutes 'landmark'. I have a strong affinity for Dublin, but I don't think it's approach to high-rise has been entirely productive. In my opinion, one of the best 'landmark' projects proposed for Dublin has actually been low-rise - the Sandyford scheme proposed by Landmark Developments and designed by the Traynor O'Toole Partnership. Of the highrise, I actually like the Alburn proposal for Sandyford, but I'm not so confident of its location. Dublin is riddled with unique and interesting structures - modern and old. In embracing high-rise, I think the city stands to benefit from high-rise development in a centralised context in areas which can adequately accommodate them - my preference? The docklands. However I do not oppose genuine positive projects in other areas, including suburban. After all, a strong case should be made for quality of design over height - where a design produces greater positivity. So far, Treasury Holdings' high-rise proposals have been far from landmark, I am especially referring to the 32-storeu Barrow Street proposal which screams Benidorm's worst. The Point Village proposal is nothing special and my opinion is known on Heuston Gate. The U2 Tower remains the best high-rise proposal for the docklands - it is a distinctive building with a character all of it's own, that happens to be both aesthetically pleasing and architectural innovative. It's a building I believe Dublin will grow proud of in years to come. But why can't the city's other projects strive to achieve the same quality? I agree a city blanketed with landmark high-rises detracts from the uniqueness of inidvidual efforts - but that doesn't mean the city should suffer at the hands of poor design.

It is an exciting time - but it will be more exciting to see what positive accomplishments and lasting design contributions can be forged from these efforts. I believe and support high-rise steps in Ireland - God knows some of our urban areas could do with some skyline distinction - but in carefully assessed moves. Some urban areas seem suited to taller structures like the Dublin and Cork docklands and Limerick's waterfront, in my own opinion - I think Galway's character would be lost with some high-rise (but that's just a personal thing and not a knock by any stretch of the imagination - design pending). It's good to see a little adventure in Irish skylines - but some attitudes remind me of the little kid who was given the key to the sweet shop, overjoyed at the prospect of all those sweets, he stuffed his face with every possible kind and swallowed them without even stopping to taste them. That evening he lay sick in his bed - while his little brother sat down by the fire with a bag of his own sweets and took the time to enjoy each one individually.

[linda]

Rjajc and ihateawake, I totally agree with you both. People complain about the least little thing these days. There are far more important things in life to worry about than bricks and mortar! All you have to do is watch the news to see that.

[PVC King]

. dublin is extremely backward when it comes to building tall, the mentality is crap! ideas like everywhere is the wrong area

That is very good description of planned locations for tall buildings over the past 30 years in Dublin. The number of inappropriately sited or poorly designed tall buildings. I very much doubt that there would be too much opposition to a well designed building of real design quality at scale on this site. Having read the article in the news section and viewed the image on http://www.archeire.com I do not think that STW have the aptitude for this type of project; both their proposal for Dun Laoghaire and their building at St Vincents Hospital are/were extremely uninspiring. Business park architecture on a budget seems more their thing these days.

Something with a little more imagination could start a trend in the distant North Docklands which if Bremore happens will be a very large landbank indeed

[GrahamH]

So many posts over the past 48 hours have screamed little but 'oh but Mammy, Johnny down the road has one'.
To pick up one one point, the very reason Irish people 'gasp' when they go abroad to New York or wherever is because we are different, refreshingly so. Our lack of an audio meter-like skyline is because we are NOT the very places that have them! This is partially down to planning alright, but largely as has been pointed out there is little need for glittering skyscrapers in a country of four million people. Our nation is the UK equivalent of Birmingham. Our capital is a suburb in Birmingham.

Dublin's uniqueness stems from being the very thing that it is, a low-rise intimate capital of a small, peripheral European country. It will never have a large conglomeration of international-equivalent 'skyscrapers', nor is this desirable.
A medium-rise Docklands of 8-10 storeys punctuated by the odd 'feature' building of 30-40 storeys in the Docklands is much more suited to the scale of Dublin city. Unfortunately it seems we're not going to get even this in light of what has happened thus far.

As for what Americans think about the scale of our buildings, with all due respect blah blah blah, who gives a toss about what Americans think, or anyone else for that matter, about the scale of our buildings. This is not contest.

[PVC King]

No one can beat Hong Kong, Singapore or the new simcity of Shanghai

[Devin]

Rant ends.

What rant?

[lexington]

So many posts over the past 48 hours have screamed little but 'oh but Mammy, Johnny down the road has one'.
To pick up one one point, the very reason Irish people 'gasp' when they go abroad to New York or wherever is because we are different, refreshingly so. Our lack of an audio meter-like skyline is because we are NOT the very places that have them! This is partially down to planning alright, but largely as has been pointed out there is little need for glittering skyscrapers in a country of four million people. Our nation is the UK equivalent of Birmingham. Our capital is a suburb in Birmingham.

Dublin's uniqueness stems from being the very thing that it is, a low-rise intimate capital of a small, peripheral European country. It will never have a large conglomeration of international-equivalent 'skyscrapers', nor is this desirable.
A medium-rise Docklands of 8-10 storeys punctuated by the odd 'feature' building of 30-40 storeys in the Docklands is much more suited to the scale of Dublin city. Unfortunately it seems we're not going to get even this in light of what has happened thus far.

As for what Americans think about the scale of our buildings, with all due respect blah blah blah, who gives a toss about what Americans think, or anyone else for that matter, about the scale of our buildings. This is not contest.

Agreed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, media quotes earmarked the Point Village development with a price-tage of €700m - seeing the plans, I'm confused as to how Mr. Crosbie is spending so much on relatively so little (with respect to the plans). For €500m, O'Flynn Construction have effectively built a new town in Ballincollig, Cork - with a new 170,000sq ft shopping centre, multi-storey car-park for over 1,000 cars, a new multi-purpose town centre, over 800 new houses/apartments, over 100,000sq ft of offices, new recreational facilities etc. For almost the same price in the Cork docklands, Manor Park Homes are redeveloping 17 acres at Horgan's Quay with approx. 1,000 new homes (apartments etc), new waterfront, new road network, landmark buildings (some of which are 'high-rise'), a new recreational facility/green space, plaza, office facilities, retail outlets, cultural facilities etc etc - and the possibility of a new 6,000 seater event centre. Point Village seems a little expensive should those quotes be proven accurate.

[Rusty Cogs]

Skyscrapers indeed, look at the time, to bed the lot of ye

[PDLL]

Our lack of an audio meter-like skyline is because we are NOT the very places that have them! This is partially down to planning alright, but largely as has been pointed out there is little need for glittering skyscrapers in a country of four million people. Our nation is the UK equivalent of Birmingham. Our capital is a suburb in Birmingham.

Dublin's uniqueness stems from being the very thing that it is, a low-rise intimate capital of a small, peripheral European country. It will never have a large conglomeration of international-equivalent 'skyscrapers', nor is this desirable.
A medium-rise Docklands of 8-10 storeys punctuated by the odd 'feature' building of 30-40 storeys in the Docklands is much more suited to the scale of Dublin city. Unfortunately it seems we're not going to get even this in light of what has happened thus far.

This thread seems to have mutated out of the Dublin Skyline one. Agree fully with G.H's comments on the size of Dublin. What I don't understand is that it many conservationists have an all or nothing mentality. You can have both quite easily. Like most other european cities, you can have a low-lying historic core (e.g, Paris and Vienna) and then have one or two clusters of high rise buildings. Dublin is lucky to have the docklands in this respect - it was made for such a purpose. One complements the other - both have different characters, not better, not worse, just different. We cannot compete with the US or China so why bother. We could, however, try to find a balance. A number of landmark high-rise buildings in Dublin's docklands would create a more interesting skyline. Why should Georgian Dublin be the 'true' and 'only' Dublin, unless you want to live in a musuem of colonial architecure. A city evolves and Ireland is evolving so lets go with the flow. It is time to build a 60 storey landmark building in the form of a green illuminated shamrock near the Point Depot. It would reflect beautifully in the Liffey and would stir no end of international interest in our humble capital city. Let not the limits of space nor gravity weaken our resolve to incarnate the Celtic Tiger in reinforced concrete and steel.

[sjpclarke]

"wow, couldnt agree more, there is no good reason for resisting high rise yet there are countless reasons for embracing it. dublin is extremely backward when it comes to building tall, the mentality is crap! ideas like everywhere is the wrong area and one more floor is the destruction of our skyline are really hindering progress, this is a laughable example of a "21st century city"

I take this to be the extreem point in this argument. For all its faults Dublin is an increasingly progressive city and has come a long way - with further to go - from the city nearly destroyed by planner, politicians and developers from the 60s onwards. All well intentioned I'm sure (well a large number certianly intended to line their own pockets) but their mistakes are largely a result of not understanding the urban context of the city. The new rage for skyscrappers threatens the same in the absence of a sensible policy covering the whole city.

Dublin doesn't need tall buildings. I undersatnd that there is an increasing need for office space but this will be best cattered for by increased densities. Here the docklands have missed a trick. While I don't agree with skyscrappers for Dublin I do think the massing and density are far to low - especially in relation to the weight of the Liffey down there. Also the carchitecture is corporate bland and of dubious worth on the long term - 50 years plus. A much better model to my mind would have been Soho NYC turn of the century. Long life - loose fit tough yet elegant buildings that will last a couple of hundred years if taken care of - as per Georgian Dublin thus explaining its importance as partly defining Dublin's urban character.

Lets get away from this fetish for glass and steel and look to something weighier and more urban! Shane

[Rory W]

Dublin doesn't need tall buildings.

Since Dublin now streches from Drogheda to Gorey and as far inland as Laois - yes it does need tall buildings in the centre if only to slow the sprawl

[Andrew Duffy]

It is time to build a 60 storey landmark building in the form of a green illuminated shamrock near the Point Depot.

Is this a joke, or would you actually like to see that?

[PDLL]

I would give my right ball to see it

[alpha]

Since Dublin now streches from Drogheda to Gorey and as far inland as Laois - yes it does need tall buildings in the centre if only to slow the sprawl

i totally agree. this sprawl has got to stop. Building up is the only logical step isn't it?

[Frank Taylor]

Since Dublin now streches from Drogheda to Gorey and as far inland as Laois - yes it does need tall buildings in the centre if only to slow the sprawl

i totally agree. this sprawl has got to stop. Building up is the only logical step isn't it?

No, it isn't. Frank MacDonald was wrong to say we must build up or out. Paris is only 8-10 storeys but manages 100 people per acre density within the peripherique.

Medieval cities with narrow streets like Venice manage this density with only 5 storeys.

One answer could be to double or triple the maximum building height in housing estates of semi-ds near the centre city.

[alpha]

No, it isn't. Frank MacDonald was wrong to say we must build up or out. Paris is only 8-10 storeys but manages 100 people per acre density within the peripherique.

Medieval cities with narrow streets like Venice manage this density with only 5 storeys.

One answer could be to double or triple the maximum building height in housing estates of semi-ds near the centre city.

i thought paris had way taller buildings than that now. then again maybe you are refering to a certain area.

[PDLL]

No, it isn't. Frank MacDonald was wrong to say we must build up or out. Paris is only 8-10 storeys but manages 100 people per acre density within the peripherique.

Medieval cities with narrow streets like Venice manage this density with only 5 storeys.

One answer could be to double or triple the maximum building height in housing estates of semi-ds near the centre city.

with densities like that in buildings that small, we are beginning to talk in terms of slums. Dublin once had densities like that - ah, the good old days.

[Frank Taylor]

A slum in venice

[PDLL]

If only Dublin had been one of the major capitals of world trade during the Renaissance period, we too could be slumming it like this. Oddly enough, if memory serves me correct, the population of Venice is decreasing dramatically because, quite simply, every day life there is hell. Indeed, the number of native Venetians living in Venice can now be counted in one gondola. The reality is that most 'Venetians' now live in Mestre across the bridge from the historic city. I couldn't find any photos of Mestre to place a link here, but from personal experience it is not exactly pretty - plenty of non-descript apartment buildings with metal shutters and graffitti.