college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby GrahamH » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:58 pm

Certainly agreed on the percentage of traffic comprising buses on College Green. While tentatively supportive of this so-called 'bus gate', as has been rehearsed at length on this site, it is without question buses that generate the hostile - bordering on dangerous - environment on College Green, with long expanses of clear roadway leading up to its numerous pedestrian crossings creating a harsh conflict between traffic and pedestrians. Presumably this bus gate will at the very least see the same amount, if not more, buses using College Green?

To honest, I'd sooner have double the amount of private cars passing through if it meant a complete eradication of buses from this space. They comprise a loud, ignorant, intimidating presence which compromises the showpiece room of the city - equivalent to allowing kiddies with muddy feet run riot about the front parlour. Out! -->
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby StephenC » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:07 pm

They really pushed the boat out on that plan for College Green. A traffic engineers wet dream by the looks of it...lots of signage and barriers and controlled crossing points and lines on the roadway. It is a very very poor substitute for what C G really deserves which is a high quality, attractive and redefined public domain.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby missarchi » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:19 am

The bus gate is a short term solution to an age old problem...
Dublin's biggest pinch point and Dublin's biggest interchange...
It is possible and it would work a treat...

but as has been discussed at length cars are preferable to buses or luas's...

How do you dig up this whole place bit by bit???

the milan method? mabye...
precast formwork... mabye...
2 lanes at a time... mabye...
working from 10pm till 6 am.... and then installing bailey bridges
do you keep metro north north exits north/south = and move the whole thing south?

no pain no gain its time to triangulate...

I would like to see an NRA proposal for an underground carpark and tunnels...

car access will make it safer at night...
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby missarchi » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:34 am

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0418/1224244966234.html

The art of the parking space

MANY FAMOUS NAMES have tried their hand – one of Frank Gehry’s most noted early buildings was a shopping centre complete with multi-storey car park in Santa Monica

ho ho ho!
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:52 am

The council is giving in so that Parking Lot owners won't lose business? Assholes.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby missarchi » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:56 pm

Bus gate plans to be scaled back

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0421/breaking53.htm

Labour’s Michael Conaghan said businesses had lobbied against the pedestrianisation of Grafton Street but it had been a huge success.

However following lobbying from city business interests the council’s transport committee yesterday voted to restrict the bus gate to 7am-10am and 4pm-7pm Monday to Friday only.

"Whilst I’m glad the committee approved a limited form of the bus gate, I think this was a missed opportunity to fully prioritise public transport, cycling and walking in the heart of our city."

Dublin City Manager John Tierney is to appear before an Oireachtas transport committee in relation to the bus gate tomorrow.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby missarchi » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:58 pm

Tributes paid to architectural assistant killed in cycling accident

21 April, 2009

By David Rogers

Tributes have been paid to the Metropolitan Workshop architectural assistant killed on her bike at a London roundabout earlier this month.

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=426&storycode=3138801&channel=783&c=1&encCode=0000000001957bbd
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby missarchi » Mon May 11, 2009 1:00 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0511/breaking26.htm

Call to put 'bus gate' on hold

I'm on the top your on the bottom and the sheets are in between...
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby DjangoD » Mon May 11, 2009 9:27 pm

Bus gate got the go-ahead tonight. City Council decided to go with the neutered version.

From "some time in July", it will operate the previously-mentioned 7 to 10am and 4 to 7pm weekday-only hours.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby mud hut! » Tue May 12, 2009 7:05 pm

Great so CIE did'nt get their monstrosity of a bus terminal and flatten Temple Bar so now they get something even better...College Green!!The nicest part of Dublin will now become a bus car park!Engines running,smoke belching from these double decker buses!Yep it will be brill standing in the center of College Green looking at 15 maybe twenty 18 foot high buses blocking the views of the Bank of Ireland,Trinity college and the other beautiful facades.How can you think this is good for the city...its mad!All traffic should be banned and the green and turned into a proper european type square,ie where you can sit and relax with your beer/coffee and not be run over by a 30 ton bus.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby alonso » Tue May 12, 2009 8:39 pm

eh it's a bus gate. Something for buses to go through not stay in - no stops, no layovers. There'll be less buses after this then there are now actually, given their cutbacks
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby mud hut! » Tue May 12, 2009 9:45 pm

Where do they say there'l be no bus stops are layovers in College Green?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby alonso » Tue May 12, 2009 9:57 pm





mud hut! read the bloody thread and do some research before polluting the site with gibberish. There'll be no additional bus stops and no layovers etc etc... click the links though, they;'re very useful. They were on the last page of this thread
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby missarchi » Wed May 13, 2009 5:10 am

alonso wrote:mud hut! read the bloody thread and do some research before polluting the site with gibberish. There'll be no additional bus stops and no layovers etc etc... click the links though, they;'re very useful. They were on the last page of this thread


are sheep allowed here? or any other nice spots

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0513/1224246388776.html
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby mud hut! » Wed May 13, 2009 11:14 am

alonso wrote:mud hut! read the bloody thread and do some research before polluting the site with gibberish. There'll be no additional bus stops and no layovers etc etc... click the links though, they;'re very useful. They were on the last page of this thread


Jesus man relax!!
The "research" i did came from an engineer in Dublin bus who said it would eventually become a hub area for buses.Im just going on what i heard!
Would ya ever take that polluting "gibberish" sheep off this tread Missarchi before Alonso sees it and does his nut!!:)
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby alonso » Wed May 13, 2009 11:57 am

mud hut! wrote:Great so CIE did'nt get their monstrosity of a bus terminal and flatten Temple Bar so now they get something even better...College Green!!The nicest part of Dublin will now become a bus car park!Engines running,smoke belching from these double decker buses!Yep it will be brill standing in the center of College Green looking at 15 maybe twenty 18 foot high buses blocking the views of the Bank of Ireland,Trinity college and the other beautiful facades.How can you think this is good for the city...its mad!All traffic should be banned and the green and turned into a proper european type square,ie where you can sit and relax with your beer/coffee and not be run over by a 30 ton bus.


You got all this from an engineer in Dublin Bus? Apologies for my abrasive tone but I presume you are now familiar with the proposal and can set your engineer pal straight
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby mud hut! » Wed May 13, 2009 12:35 pm

alonso wrote:You got all this from an engineer in Dublin Bus? Apologies for my abrasive tone but I presume you are now familiar with the proposal and can set your engineer pal straight

Well i dont believe everything i read even pdf files from dublin bus!But if that whats really going to happen good,a step forward.As for everything else i said, buses DO belch smoke they are 18 foot high and they do block the views of College Green when parked at the stops there.And its not gibberish to state or to want College green to be completely traffic free.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby alonso » Wed May 13, 2009 1:21 pm

nope not at all,. I fully agree that a pedestrianised area would be the ideal outcome. Think of this as step 1 maybe...
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby GrahamH » Wed May 13, 2009 10:01 pm

I can't see it that way sadly. Judging the record of Dublin Bus, the proposed restrictions will result in a long term increase in the amount of buses using College Green, which in spite of a reduction in private car numbers, can only be a bad thing. By association, this will also result in an increased number of buses being funnelled through the wider ceremonial heart of the city centre. The void created by the banning of cars will also simply be filled with the city's ever-burgeoning fleet of empty taxis. Conor Faughnan's recent drawing of a parallel with choked and hostile Oxford Street in London, filled by a cliff face of buses, was extremely apt. It was precisely the example I was thinking of during the public debate on the matter.

The statement released by the Mountjoy Square Society a couple of days ago sums matters up well I think:


Mountjoy Square Society Urges Dublin City Councillors to Drop “Bus Gate” and Instead Connect Luas

11-05-2009

The Mountjoy Square Society strongly urges Dublin City Councillors to cancel the bus gate at tonight’s monthly meeting as we fear it will cause far more buses and coaches to be dumped in Mountjoy Square. This position was adopted unanimously by the society's members at its monthly meeting, held last night.

Despite Dublin Bus network reform announcements, first by the late Seamas Brennan, then by Cullen, and most recently by Noel Dempsey, no reform has occurred – with most buses following tramlines 70 years gone to a pillar also disappeared. It would be a rotten irony if more Dublin Buses blocking up College Green was to result in the Luas lines prevented from ever being connected. The Mountjoy Square Society urges connection of the Luas as a priority over facilitating an unreformed Dublin Bus.

The north inner city is abused by Dublin Bus; no service connects one end of Dorset Street to the other, no bus goes down Capel, North King, or Dominick Streets; instead Dublin Bus uses Mountjoy Square as a runway depot with many out-of-service buses parking up outside a crèche and childrens areas, blocking motorist’s sightlines and emitting cancerous fumes.

Dublin Bus refuses to provide passenger services after 6pm to Mountjoy Square, thus further stigmatizing business and residential interests. Despite the Mountjoy/ Summerhill depot due to be going, as scheduled in a 2001 council plan, even a reasonable suggestion by city officials urging a new ramp from the depot onto Summer hill – delivering speedier access onto O’Connell Street via Parnell Street – has been ignored.

Dublin Bus do NOT “serve the entire community”; they bully their way against the community and are a blight on the parts on the inner city they already dominate, such as Marlborough Street and Parnell Square. What hope for College Green if these custodians were to take primary charge – please see attached photograph of Broadstone Station in disgraceful condition.

Bus Gate is highly unlikely to deliver a better bus services in the absence of route reform; instead it facilitates worst practice. Little benefit is gained in the way of deterring private through traffic as O’Connell Street College - Green is already a large traffic cell area – since considered restrictions were introduced at Suffolk, South Great Georges, Pearse, North Frederick, Abbey, and Upper O’Connell Streets, as part of the Integrated Area Plan. The few cars currently using O’Connell Street – College Green already have to drive out of their way and are mostly not through traffic. Taxis and buses will simply make up for the private cars removed, not delivering for either cyclists or pedestrians.

Dublin Bus is part of the greater CIE created transport problem in the north inner city: in Mountjoy Square walls of coaches dangerously park up, yet many of these are on contract to CIE – who already have Broadstone, 90 acres at Connolly, etc. Beside Mountjoy Square is Croke Park, Europe’s 5th largest stadium, and sandwiched between two railway lines – yet CIE refuses to either install a station. This existing line would connect Connolly and Heuston Stations, and serve the communities in the North Circular Road, Phibsborough, Cabra, Russell Street, and Ballybough areas.

Facts provided by agencies have been few, yet Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) have stated at Metro North hearings, the time benefit to Dublin Bus journeys is only 1% if bus gate is inserted.

The Mountjoy Square Society notes and supports the Dublin City Business Association’s concerns; in the absence of leadership being given by central government prioritizing Luas lines being connected over bus gate, we call on Dublin City Council to give leadership in rejecting this scheme outright.

Issued on instructions by the members of the Mountjoy Square Society,

Ruadhán MacEoin

Chairman.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby fergalr » Thu May 14, 2009 2:46 pm

But where do buses cross the Liffey if not O'Connell St to College Green? Trinity College is a massive impediment to cross-city traffic and there are very few north/south roads crossing the entire city centre. If we want bus routes going right through the city, as opposed to parking up An Lar, then they need to be able to get across the river somewhere. I hate the masses of buses on our narrow roads. I hate how they've made crossing College Green easily one of the most dangerous places to be a pedestrian in Dublin. I hate their pollution and noise and size... but they have to go somewhere. The BusGate is asinine and ill-thought through but College Green is the intersection of three main routes through the city centre: North up OCS, South along Nassau St and west along Dame St. It's the proper heart of the city centre and that's as true for public transport as it is for romantic architecture buffs.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby missarchi » Thu May 14, 2009 2:58 pm

Air Quality and Climate Suggested that two independent ambient air monitoring surveys be conducted at College Green assuming
worst case scenario conditions.

PR

This is going to produce some very interesting results...

Bus gate might be phase 1? the buses must cross the river until metro north is sorted...
After that anything may be possible... Have Dublin bus ever proposed bus tunnels or underground bus depots in the past?

Suggestion that a proposal that does not include an overhead traction power supply be considered.

fingers crossed...
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby hutton » Thu May 14, 2009 3:39 pm

missarchi wrote:Bus gate might be phase 1? the buses must cross the river until metro north is sorted...
After that anything may be possible... Have Dublin bus ever proposed bus tunnels or underground bus depots in the past?


*Tin Opener* -- > > *WORMS*

Missaarchi in missarchi's own inimitable way has a point - this is looking as if it's all about a land-grab of the city centre by Dublin Bus, who previously didn't get the sub-Liffey linked Temple Bar/ Abbey St depot... And this one makes about as much sense.

In case anybody is fooled into thinking this is only going to be part time, according to the Irish Times - "the city’s director of traffic, Michael Phillips, said the bus gate could have to revert to the original 24-hours, once Metro North construction begins."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0421/breaking53.htm

Stealth planning, incremental, lack of contextual consideration, lacking EIS or an EIA - but wait it's a "green" measure, so it must be good? Why is this beginning to remind me of "free bikes" by JC Decaux...

Re Fergair's point, as to crossings, west of O'C bridge there is Capel St , Winetavern Street, and Church St Bridges - and that's only west as far as the 4 courts. East of O'C there's Matt Talbot, Butt Bridge (both have counter-flow potential), while NCR will link in with by Beckett Bridge.

DB's over-concentration of buses funneling via O'C St and bridge is now worse than when there were trams, as at least the 23 tram went via Capel Street.

Map link below of old tram network; damn all has changed other than seemingly more concentration on O'C st by DB, with less service in the north inner city.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pubv2.jpg
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby cgcsb » Thu May 14, 2009 3:52 pm

I agree that Dublin Bus needs to perhaps consider crossing of the City's many other bridges. The worst example of this is the 83 which comes from Finglas via Church St but instead of crossing the Bridge and on to wine Tavern Street, it turns onto the quays crosses O'Connell Bridge and turns back around in almost the same direction it came from and out to Kimage. This adds at least 20 mins to the journey

But I am still in favour of the Bus Gate because even if Dublin Bus spread their routes out. College Green would still be the best route for most of their bus services to take. I wonder what they're planning to do when BXD starts constrution. They can hardly share road space, can they?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby jimg » Thu May 14, 2009 4:05 pm

It is quite a modest proposal.

I'm disappointed that they didn't use the opportunity to create a contra-lane on Grafton St. to save buses having to go around-the-block through Suffolk St.. The latter (and most of Andrew Street) could have been pedestrianized extending the Grafton St. pedestrianised area. At least a contra-lane would be better use of precious road-space at this bottleneck than a taxi rank. The bus stops on the other side of this end of Grafton St. should be moved away from here also as they contribute considerably to the stopping and starting and piling up of buses here.

The presence of a considerable number of buses does not contribute positively to the urban environment obviously. Unfortunately, for the moment it is a vital public transport mode particularly given Dublin's obvious shortcomings in terms of rail. One of the worst aspects is the air pollution and this is exacerbated significantly by the stop/start nature of the current flow of buses through this area of town. If the passage of buses can at least me made smother and more efficient, then the environmental damage they cause will be lessened considerably.

Sadly, being pragmatic, Dublin's topography means that there are certain streets which will continue to serve the role as arterial routes for motorised traffic for the foreseeable future and unfortunately, I think it's unavoidable that College Green will have a role in this regard. The aim should be to reduce the amount of motorised traffic on these routes as much as possible (and any sort of restriction helps in this regard) while building largely pedestrianised zones in the urban islands created between them. This would be cheap and easy to achieve and would be a step in the right direction until it is no longer necessary to carry passengers by bus around the city centre and the entire centre can be reclaimed for pedestrians, cyclists and clean/quiet on-street trams. Is it my imagination or did the expansion of pedestrianisation in Dublin slow or stop 5 or 10 years ago?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby DjangoD » Fri May 15, 2009 10:51 am

Sorry to divert from the gate, but just on an earlier subject in this thread which was - I know - a divisive one: the gated concourse of Bank of Ireland.

Not sure if any of you checked it out, but they held a farmers' market there on Wednesday and it was a bit of an eye-opener. As far as I know it was purely a once-off to promote some BOI entrepreneurship thing, but it was a really good use of the space. Even on as dreary a day as Wednesday was, it gave a bit of life to the College Green area and pretty starkly emphasised how a part of the city with such potential has become just a big obnoxious junction.

Yes, the arguments for and against either opening the concourse during the day or getting rid of the railings altogether have been had, but using the space like this was a really positive move, even if some of the bankers didn't look too comfortable with the proximity of those weird longhairs encroaching on their territory.

Anyway, I think it proved that - even as just a summer thing - that area can really be put to good use for the public. Plus, with a bus gate in force, it could actually be slightly peaceful.

But it's not going to happen, is it?
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