college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Mon May 08, 2006 11:47 am

Devin wrote: I wouldn’t mind but the old fart mightn’t even be around to see any of the current transport plans brought to completion.


How eloquent
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby Andrew Duffy » Mon May 08, 2006 12:45 pm

I honestly can't think of a better description for him.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Mon May 08, 2006 12:57 pm

I think that is extremely unfair given his track record
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby Alek Smart » Mon May 08, 2006 9:07 pm

Ah Lads,Lads...will yiz give the man a break....
There`s nuttin in his piece that doesnt make sense,especially the bits about STATISTICS.
Lets face it G Fitz is probably the ONLY Politican (Except perhaps CS Andrews) who has an interest in both Statistics AND Public Transport.

I would far prefer to have an exchange with G Fitz on the LUAS topic than with the present Ministerial Incumbent.

Lets face it the entire €34 Billion T21 plan is now looking VERY dodgy in several Key aspects (except Motorway construction).
The manner in which the various strands of Public Transport modes appear to be still considered as independent entities each with their own totally seperate management and administration structures is bordering on Insanity.

One has only to look at the ongoing RPA "SmartCard" fiasco to see how a Minister or succession of Ministers of varying levels of incompetency can successfully bring an entire Public Transport System back to Year Zero.

Having had Pol Brennan and Pol Cullen each do their best to salvage disaster from the jaws of success I remain a confirmed G Fitz fan when it comes to Public Transport Methodology !! :eek:
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby StephenC » Thu May 18, 2006 1:00 pm

Its hard to know what thread to put this on...see OConnell St also
Dublin Bus wants roads deal with Luas
Tim O'Brien

Transport committee: Dublin Bus has said the viability of a €200 million plan to beat congestion may be in doubt if it can not come to an accommodation with Luas over crucial road space in Dublin city centre.

Both transport companies are vying for on-street priority in the crucial centre area of Nassau Street, College Green and Westmoreland Street.

Yesterday, managing director of Dublin Bus Joe Meagher said it could now take up to 25 minutes for a bus to travel between St Stephen's Green and Parnell Square, a situation which made bus use in the city "almost unviable".

Mr Meagher told the Oireachtas Committee on Transport that the bus company needed additional priority on city streets, and said the prospect of Luas utilising a route option along Nassau Street and College Green via Westmoreland Street to O'Connell Street was "a major, major issue for Dublin Bus".

The route is one of a number being considered to link up the existing Luas Red and Green lines. It emerged as favourite at a public consultation process in February, largely because it is the shortest and most direct.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), builder of Luas, has said the success of tram systems around the world was dependent on trams having their own space where they travel on public roads and not queuing at traffic lights.

However, Mr Meagher said Dublin Bus provided 58 million passenger journeys which began or ended in the vicinity of the front of Trinity College.

With travel speeds in the city centre averaging between 5km/h and 8km/h depending on the time of the day, the company had developed an investment plan based on 425 new buses and new quality bus corridors (QBCs).

This plan was dependent on "free movement" of buses along QBCs and in the city centre.

He said the plan also included the development of more cross-city bus routes, six new orbital and five new radial QBCs and priority movement in the city centre.

Priority movement could mean continuous bus lanes, bus-only access roads, bus-only turns, and bus priority at lights and junctions.

He warned that congestion was currently costing the company €60 million a year, while the average speed of buses across the network had fallen to just 12km/h.

Mr Meagher said Dublin Bus had raised the issue with Luas, and had extensive discussions with the Dublin Transportation Office, which, he said, had been understanding of the bus company's position.

Dublin Bus also made a submission at the public consultation stage meetings held by the RPA.

The company recommended that Luas utilise "option B", a route around Trinity College to the west along Nassau Street and Westland Row.

Dublin Bus said it was also seriously concerned about the disruption to routes and services during the Luas construction phase, which could see Dawson Street, Nassau Street, Lower Grafton Street, College Green, Westmoreland Street and part of O'Connell Street dug up.

Mr Meagher said Dublin Bus did accept the importance of the Luas and metro projects in transport infrastructure but there was "a need for close co-ordination between Luas, metro and Dublin Bus to minimise disruption".
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Thu May 18, 2006 1:18 pm

g fitz is so old and farty . what does he know about transport ???? i am sick of listening to his rambles. why do people listen to him ?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby jimg » Thu May 18, 2006 2:17 pm

Ye are being very unfair on Garret.

It is completely off base to blame him for the "missing link" in the Luas. That was partly due to vigorous lobbying by city centre retailing interests (ironically who are now championing the link). But most of the blame for it lies firmly with O'Rourke who instead of deciding on either metro or tram dreamt up her own cockamaymie idea of a tram with a horrendously expensive and impractical short underground section. A solution involving most of the expense of a metro but with the capacity and speed of a tram. Of course the ludecrous underground section was never built leaving us with a disconnected tram system.

What Garret argued is simply that the Luas as proposed at the time would not provide the capacity required a) to eventually serve the Airport and b) to reduce traffic congestion in the city. For the former he simply looked at the numbers going through the airport and the capacity of the Luas line (about 3000 people an hour) and pointed out that the Luas would only provide a fraction of the capacity required. For the latter he produced DTO figures which said at the time that there were about 250000 people milling around Dublin during rush hour (probably more at this stage). It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a line with capacity of 3000 people an hour is not going to make much of a difference to the amount of traffic. Not that that's a reason for not building it but at the time the Luas was being championed as a silver bullet that would solve congestion in the city centre. Garret simply pointed out that it wouldn't.

His predictions and analysis have been verified if anything. Belately everyone has realised that a tram to the Airport will not suffice. If they'd listened to Garret, we would now have a metro from the Airport/Swords to Shanganagh. Instead we will effectively have line which is composed of a metro line (from the airport to Stephens Green) which terminates in the city (requiring a change for passengers) and continues as a separate tram line (from the Green to Sandyford) - undeniably a bit of a dogs dinner in transport terms.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Thu May 18, 2006 5:22 pm

a boyle wrote: what does he know about transport ????


Quite a bit he did afterall introduce DART as well as having the Dublin to Cork line relaid for the first time in 60 years; he also introduced the mark 3 coach fleet whilst in power which thanks to this weeks messing are still the premier standard on the Irish network 23 years after induction.

He is also a trained economist who has written a lot on the Dublin transport scene over a 50 year period; he may be entering his twilight years but make no mistake he is a lot sharper now than most of us will be at any stage in life.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Thu May 18, 2006 11:18 pm

the end justfies the means . his means resulted in delaying completion of the project, not a better project. this is why he is an old fart. he did not articulate a viable alternative, unlike frank mcdonald. why is he given so much attention?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby BTH » Fri May 19, 2006 4:12 am

a boyle wrote:the end justfies the means . his means resulted in delaying completion of the project, not a better project. this is why he is an old fart. he did not articulate a viable alternative, unlike frank mcdonald. why is he given so much attention?


Maybe try reading jimg and Thomond's posts above? :rolleyes:
They express the facts of the matter pretty clearly. Can't you read that he advocated a full metro line including underground sections which I clearly recall reading about at the time? Personally I think he was and is dead right as any luas between Stephen's Green and the North Side is going to be ridiculously slow (Connolly to Heuston anyone? On streets far more choked with pedestrian activity?) and potentially quite visually disturbing to College Green.I also find the "old fart" remarks pretty childish and beneath the usual high standard of discussion on these boards...
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Fri May 19, 2006 3:24 pm

here it is plain and simple.

There is no route in the city that justifies a metro. Even the dart doesnt justify and full metro services, and it is a metro. full stop. we need to do what strasbourg did. effectively close down the entire inner city, and then build 5 trams lines. these can then run faster and up to every 2 minutes because they don't compete with cars. The green line which is close to capacity only serves 3/4 thousands an hour. in twenty years it will still only serve 15 thousands an hour.

This traffic thing is the ultimate chicken and egg situation. But any rpa metro will be a financial noose. only the dart can come up with the patronage numbers required because it can tap into the national network.

Sick and tired of this metro hogwash. It won't do the trick. We need to kick people out of their cars and onto buses , bycles, and feet. We need to open schools at 7 in the morning. end of story. the city is thinly spread. If i hear another metro bleater i will shoot him! these tram metros were conceived by politicians. The average speed of the metro in porto is 20km and hour, you cycle faster than that.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Fri May 19, 2006 6:42 pm

On the basis of current densities there is little justification for the metro,

however the two local authorities for this route are Dublin City Council and Fingal who are both local authorities that have track records of delivering both development and reasonable protection for heritage.

Bearing in mind that metro north will not arrive until 2012 at the earliest this gives time for local action area plans to be drafted and commented upon by the stakeholders, for the appropriate sites to be assembled and for the developments to be completed about the time of or slightly prior to completion of the Metro.

TP doesn't give free investment advice often but in this case I will there are a large number of industrial units on both sides of the Swords bypass this area will be the new Sandyford in 6 to 7 years time.

I have also received soundings as to how the metro will be specified and have full confidence that the RPA will deliver a system that addresses all my previous concerns between Stephens Greeen and Swords.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Fri May 19, 2006 9:16 pm

i remain unconvinced. if a metro is built we will end up with high rise ghettos at the edge of the city. The city has ballooned. the irish times reported that a third of house in the country are less than ten years old . This cannot continue. The city is envitably going to slow down in the next 3 years.

Because of this i say the metro (its not a metro by the by) is too much, too late.

I hate the expression but it is anavoidable. The facts on the ground are that forward tranport planning is not what is needed. dealling with the population in situ is what is needed. And the population in situ needs an orbital tram. The population in situ needs the real metro to be built, the interconnector. Be under no illusions that is is an either or with metro north and the interconnector.

The choices are stark. 3 high capacity lines (2 metros , and this underground tram) and nothing else. because these will cost around 10 billion.

Or the (2 metros + 6/7 tram lines) . This is a much better option. the suburbs are built. lets deal with the people who in misery today on the m50 not the people who might live in swords in the future.

The metro does not solve any transport problems in itself. it only allows for future development to be done in a better way. Building a network of 6/7 tram lines would have an impact on traffic , and would provide for higher density housing , since 6/7 tram lines cover such a large area.

Building the metro north line will mean at least at least a twenty year period to put in place the network.
Building the tram network will take ten years realistically. Plus it doesn't mean that a metro (real one) can't be built. The ministry of finance itself reported some years ago that the metro would only carry sufficient numbers of people when the rest of the tram network was built.

This blind support for an underground tram through the least populated part of the city, on the basis that future development will be of a higher quality infuriates me. The large scale housing development is coming to an end , within the next few years. And the fact remains that the airport has a huge exclusion zone around it, wasting the metro line. It is also a fact that people like to drive to airports because lugging your bagges is no fun. It is also a fact that the port tunnel provides an enormous amount of space for a bus service to fly people in and out of the city,swords, and the airport. Finnally buses using the port tunnel will get to the city faster than the tram. This was not, i repeat not examined by the consultants when examining the case for the metro north .

It is quite clearly a gift from de taoiseach to de north side.

It is so wastefull and will have such little impact for the first 15 years of operation that if we continue this discussion much further i might just explode!!!
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby Alek Smart » Sun May 21, 2006 1:08 am

A Boyle,me life on ye..!!
U appear to be the only livin Citizen to have spotted the VERY positive Port Tunnel BusWay option which as U point out will allow Buses to whup Metro North`s ass in the all-important journey to An Lar.
This simple little fact was of course ignored by the Consultants most likely because they were not asked to look in that direction cos as everybody knows Buses aint SEXY.
The entire Metro North/Luas scenario is much valued by the professional engineering fraternity as each new extension or modification becomes a new engineering money pit,where son,daughters and assorted multi-disciplinary graduates can cut their teeth on state of the art technology whilst their poorer Technical School companions merely get to flute around with Bus Lanes and Traffic Signal phasing.
However if somebody can turn on the cold shower for long enough we might just get some of this commonsense aired but I aint optomistic....Back to U in the Studio e Boyle !!
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby The Denouncer » Mon May 22, 2006 10:59 am

Originally posted by a boyle
It is also a fact that the port tunnel provides an enormous amount of space for a bus service to fly people in and out of the city,swords, and the airport. Finnally buses using the port tunnel will get to the city faster than the tram. This was not, i repeat not examined by the consultants when examining the case for the metro north .

It is quite clearly a gift from de taoiseach to de north side.

It is so wastefull and will have such little impact for the first 15 years of operation that if we continue this discussion much further i might just explode!!!


Well the southside has de LUAS, the Westside has de LUAS, the East coast has de DART.
I for one CANNOT WAIT for de Metro, as I live in Swords. I currently drive to Donabate to catch de train..Donabate with a tiny population compared to Swords, a growing, crowded town (the capital of Fingal) served by Airport feeding bus routes in most cases, taking up to 1.5 hours to get into the City Centre.
As for de Port Tunnel..that will be a jam packed route off the M1, during peak hours would take 40 minutes to get that far from an Airport serving bus from Swords and then what? Chaos. the stink that will be kicked up by truckers..the congestion..WELCOME TO DUBLIN tourists, here is the famous PORT TUNNEL from hell.

So "a boyle", let me light de fuse!
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby PVC King » Mon May 22, 2006 11:05 am

I think it is important that people in Swords realise just how much Metro will change Swords in terms of higher densities and general congestion. Personally I am favour of Metro for Swords and a metro terminating in Dublin Airport would not have been acceptable but it needs to be stated that metro will change Swords into something between Tallaght and Sandyford.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby The Denouncer » Mon May 22, 2006 11:16 am

Swords is getting that way anyway. I don't think you'd find a single person in Swords who would be against the Metro, Because everyone knows how bad the buses are.
If I got a bus into my job the whole journey would be closer to 2 hours than the hour it currently is by driving to Donabate and getting a train. I once listened to a girl on the train moan about people driving from Swords to get the train in her beloved Donabate, as that has loads of new apartments going up too.
However if you're moving to Swords you have to take everything into consideration, and look at all modes of transport..and I'm afraid if you work on the DART line on the Southside of the Liffey the buses just don't cut it.
Still you could watch a 90 minute movie on the bus.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 2:50 pm

Denouncer I don't think you are still apreciating the scale of what is proposed.

I do feel your pain with respect to traffic. I live at the southern edge of the city. going into the city used to take (walking included) between 1-2 hours. With the tram (walking included) 25 mins every time, not a minute more.

this is the scale of the thing : a good bus service (46A) can do 1500 people per hour in one direction. the luas as is 4000. (although both could be upped to around 6000). This underground tram will have a top capacity of 28000.

Dundrum has 15 new appartment block ranging in height from 4 - 11 storeys. sandyford (industrial estate) has had application for enormous 23 storey appartement blocks.

Whether a tram is built or an underground system is built will have no impact on how fast you get to work.

But if this underground tram is built . It is unavoidable that the bulk of growth for dublin will be concentrated north of the airport. It won't be pretty.

I would ask you to at the very least hold your counsel till the port tunnel is opened. because that is going to be fantastic for you. There are already motions in progress for buses to use it.

What i am proposing is a tram that follows the current route plus a spur from the airport to the dart line. This is much cheaper, can carry more people to more places in the long run . And wont have a 50 storey tower block in swords . If you would like to see how 30 storey tower blocks work out in practice at the edge of a city , check out La defense in paris.

Denouncer if you don't start campaigning for a sensible solution you will be shafted in the long run (just like the happy people in meath who won't know what hit them when the M3 is finished).
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby KerryBog2 » Mon May 22, 2006 2:59 pm

[quote="a boyle"] If you would like to see how 30 storey tower blocks work out in practice at the edge of a city , check out La defense in paris.
QUOTE]
So, how do you see them working?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 3:01 pm

KerryBog2 wrote:So, how do you see them working?
Do you mean tower blocks ? or transport?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby KerryBog2 » Mon May 22, 2006 3:05 pm

The tower blocks, the transport works!
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 3:15 pm

KerryBog2 wrote:The tower blocks, the transport works!
KB



you won't get middle income people to raise families in tower blocks unless you 'spoil' them ! you need parks (proper one) schools , a new hospital. nice old buildings restored, sports facilities ,gyms ... the list is endless. And if you don't get middle income families to raise their children in these tower blocks (that WILL come), it won't work well. You could either have these block filled with immigrants which means riots of some description in the future. Or a dead town with people completely retiring into their world at night. This happens in la defense and as a consequence is expremely dangerous at night. Or the IFSC on a small city scale. Which is what swords WILL turn into.

Tower blocks can be great but like everything else they need to be done properly . However a tower block is a bigger bet.

It not unrealistic to expect housing for 150 thousand people to be added , over a thirty year period. Thats cork. And because of the airports exclusion zone most of this will need to be squeezed in around swords.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 3:57 pm

denouncer do you still want your metro ?
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby The Denouncer » Mon May 22, 2006 5:13 pm

Yep a nice Metro. If I want to go to Dundrum I'll jump on the Metro, which will stop at the airport. Tourists will get on impressed at the beautiful light rail transportation. 20 minutes later I will be at St. Stephens Green. Then, should it please me, I will head on to Dundrum knowing that on the way back I don't have to drag bags of shopping or whatever on the bus for a 1.5 hour trip to Swords.
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Re: college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby a boyle » Mon May 22, 2006 5:37 pm

okaaaay you seem to be ignoring or not listening . whether its a metro or a tram makes no difference to the speed. ( the bus will be faster into the city by the way) but is it's a metro you will be overshadowed by a fourty tower block .

I do understand wanting improvements to transport, i think you are being very naive about the consequences of a metro. If the metro can take 30000 per hour per direction. It will need to take at least 20/25 thousand to pay for itself. do you want that level of development? Are there enough greens spaces as it is ? are there enough corners newsagents as it is. Are there enough schools? i doubt it.

You are welcoming the most intensive development in the country with open arms , which baffles me. You are also ignoring that for the price of this metro you could build a tram following the same route (with same speed , at 4/minute frequencies) , a main heavy rail link to the airport. and 2or possibly three more trams lines on the north side alone. This would spread the devopment pressure across the whole of the northside. Maybe you like high rise living. Maybe you have faith in the planning system. Maybe lessons have been learnt from the high rise ballymun , the scattered tallaght, and the joke liffey valley. I think you are nuts!!
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