Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

[Frank Taylor]

Thanks TP. I never knew that.

I'm off to build some houses in my barn, to be dramatically unveiled in 2010.

[Bill McH]

Well now just a minute - do you have planning permission for that barn?

[StephenC]

Aaah sure dont worry about that. Sure isnt Frank a great contributor to the local economy. And sure if he didnt build his barn he might get fed up and take his money somewhere else, like Bangladesh or something. Ill tell you what Frank....heres a few tax incentives and a grant. Why not build the barn as a National Museum of... Dogs or something like that. It would be a great attraction. Really help put the area on the map!

[PVC King]

I'm off to build some houses in my barn, to be dramatically unveiled in 2010.

Like the Vodafone mast at that industrial estate in Navan that was found within a chimney.

[vinnyfitz]

Anyone been out to Citywest recently?

Inside the frame of his illegal, but extant, development George is now erecting - phoenix like - an enormous brick sided, "temporary" structure. A mother of all function rooms in the midst of a pre condemned structure!

[PDLL]

Sorry I meant to say Alexandra Quay, there is a reference to Alexandra Dry - Dock, which is the only site that I can assume that you are talking about which would lead to a conference centre surrounded on one side by grain stores and the other by ro-ro freight ferries doesn't exactly appeal plus its a long way from the City Centre and has no public transport existing or proposed and is accessed from Alexandra Road one of the least pedestrian freindly environments in Dublin. Its not a difficult choice between this and Spencer Dock, if only O'Rourke hadn't interfered we'd have had a NCC in the RDS 5 or 6 years ago.

What is it in this Country, why can't we just select a central site and build the damn thing?

Lets hope the Government never has the brain wave of hosting the Olympics! I agree with Thomand Park - I have alluded to it in different ways across a number of different threads. There are genuine problems in the way things are done in Ireland - whether it is the National Aquatic Centre, the completion of the M50, the price and duration of construction of a metro system, the lack of proper road infrastructure of international standard (with the exception of about 20km of M50, or however long it is, a rail link to the airport, a non-Dublin orientated national road and rail network ,etc, etc. Everything takes foru times as long to build as in other countries, costs 10 times as much, causes 40 times as much public controversy and 22.3 times as many tribunals 20 years after its all done. Is it our colonial past? Are we still not used to governing ourselves or are there other issues in the Irish psyche which prevented us from being the Romans or Greeks of the North Atlantic.

[Peter Fitz]

consensus politics, being all things to all people, i.e. being fianna fail ...

pandering to every 'not in my back yard objection' with the objective of clinging to power for as long as possible.

Our Taoiseach is the master of all of this. Rarely do you discover what he actually thinks on any issue.

[PDLL]

I have a deep suspicion that this transcends party political divides. I think it has something fundamental to do with the way we perceive ourselves and our country but I cannot put my finger on exactly what it is. Yes, the 'not in my back yard lobby' is one problem but connected to this is maybe a strange perception of scale. Something has to be wrong when any building over 10 stories is invariably described as a skyscraper in news reports and any road wider than a boreen is called a motorway. For Christ sake, even Sofia in Bulgaria (a very poor city) has the semblance of an ungerdround - what is wrong with us. Maybe this is wrothy of a thread on its own - I will start one.

[dowlingm]

I suppose Jim M will get whatever he wants now...
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10003810.shtml

[Paul Clerkin]

Mansfield gets go-ahead for €50m convention centre at Citywest
Edel Morgan



Developer Jim Mansfield has got the green light from South Dublin County Council to complete his controversial €50 million convention centre at Citywest, in Saggart, Co Dublin.

The council has also granted permission to Mr Mansfield's company, HSS Ltd, to retain the steel frame and a partial roof of the centre, which were built without planning approval.

Last year his company was fined €1,750 and ordered to pay costs of almost €30,000 to the council after Tallaght District Court found it had failed to comply with an enforcement order by the council to stop work on the centre.

An Bord Pleanála subsequently overturned the original planning permission. However, a vote last November by councillors backing completion of the centre paved the way for Mr Mansfield to submit another planning application to continue and retain the development.

The three-storey convention centre will have a main hall, temporary stage, seating for up to 6,000 people, meeting rooms, a bar, 675 car-parking spaces and a covered walkway to Citywest's hotel and golf course.

Citywest already has a 4,000-seater conference centre. One of the conditions of planning permission is that only one of the conference venues can be used at any one time.

[Alek Smart]

€31,750.......By God thats gotta be the bargain of the century.......Go Mansfields Go.....Bring back the Aro Land Car I say !!!!!!

[PVC King]

€31,750.......By God thats gotta be the bargain of the century.......Go Mansfields Go.....Bring back the Aro Land Car I say !!!!!!

The question is what happens next?

[Alek Smart]

The diversion of the River Dodder to create a giant ornamental lake and associated waterfall wall encircling the "New" Conference Centre and the renaming of the Facility to reflect this........Son of Inchydoney.........????

[PVC King]

Board Ref. 06S215210 Planning Appeal
Development Convention Centre with seating for up to 6000 people, 675 no. car parking spaces.
Citywest Hotel, Saggart, Co. Dublin.
Planning Authority South Dublin County Council Reg. Ref. SD05A/0086
Applicant HSS Limited
Lodged Appellant(s) Status
23-Nov-2005 The Point Exhibition Company Active
24-Nov-2005 An Taisce Active
24-Nov-2005 HSS Limited Active

Looks like its going another round ....

[GrahamH]

Himself will be on the Late Late tonight.

[hutton]

Himself will be on the Late Late tonight.

Anybody see it? I missed it as i had other commitments

[GrahamH]

A bit late now, but it was repeated on Monday night as usual.



Quite the charmer, he went down very well with the audience.
His planning record was quite vigourously questioned, and on the unauthorised frame of the conference centre he was quite reflective about it all. He retold the story fairly but said little more. He said he's not in the least concerned about the Spencer Dock National CC, that there's ample business to go round, and that we could do with 5 or 6 conference centres there's so much demand. Also the National CC was so long in the pipeline and with so much footdragging that he wasn't going to wait any longer - which is a fair point from his perspective.

His planning difficulties at Weston were painted as being essential, relatively minor or relating to proceedure.

[Devin]

He said he's not in the least concerned about the Spencer Dock National CC, that there's ample business to go round

God!! The scale of what he wants to do out there is unsustainable by any standards, regardless if more than one big conference would be needed.

The most interesting thing about the current appeal - as detailed by Thomond Park above - is that the Point Depot are one of the appellants. It shows they still see Mansfield’s plans as a threat to the Point Village/Spencer Dock Conference Centre plans.

It still seems a bit bizarre that something of major national strategic importance - like where a National Conference Centre is to be located - isn’t being decided at a higher (government) level, but is rather left to a battle between the people who want to build it, or the whim of a planning appeal outcome.

[PVC King]

He will no doubt use the Luas to rebut the original finding by the Bord that this location is deficient in public transport terms;

I do not consider a one hour Luas journey with potential change at Belgard to be acceptable public transport provision; in the post metro environment which is at least 7 years away the trek to City West will be roughly 1.5 hours from the Airport allowing for a change at O'Connell. The Aircoach would have you in Newry in a similar timeframe.


It has to be in the City Centre for me as this district already has a large exhibition centre at Punchestown which is a mere 15 minutes away by road

[a boyle]

I do not consider a one hour Luas journey with potential change at Belgard to be acceptable public transport provision

you absolutely right . it is far from the city . However i am not sure that having one in the city is such a great idea either. i have seen 3 large conference centres in 3 american cities . All of them were redundant within 3/4 years because each one was outdone by a newer larger center. They also added nothing to the areas. When closed they are like empty prisons, large dead space. and when open they add little to the area as noone nearby has any business with the building . Those who do use the center don't care about the area and are only there for the day.

If he really wants to build a conference center then let him , they are white elephants best left to the private sector. One built by the government can only dissapoint.

[PVC King]

Yes but this is a very ugly industrial elephant within the curtilage of a protected structure it should therefore be refused and removed; it will also undermine the viability of the SDCC which has all will agree a much greater chance of success

[KerryBog2]

A Boyle, I don’t agree with you on convention centres.. Think CNIT in Paris la Defense or Porte Maillot. Many of the bigger US cities e.g. San Francisco have huge hotels that fulfil the role of convention centres. For purpose-designed ones think of Baltimore, Atlanta, Vegas, Boston, Phoenix. All have big conference centres and all are flourishing. Why? Because they are DOWNTOWN, not stuck out in the burbs. A very important part of US convention business is the spouses’ programme and that often determines the destination. Although the annual leave allowance in the US is much shorter than in Europe, it is very normal for a manager to attend two or three conventions every year – these are basically paid holidays, with a bit of work thrown in, and it is equally usual for herself/himself to tag along, often paid for by the employer. Nobody in their right mind would stick the partner in a hotel out at Mansfield’s kip, with nothing to do bar enjoy the scenic delights of Jobstown, visit the architectural gem of the Basketball Centre and shop at the Square. And nobody will take bus/luas out there from the city. Years ago I ran a 200 delegate conference in Dublin Castle and getting people there and back from Jurys was a nightmare; I dread to think what Citiwest would be like.
I agree that con. centres can be soul-less, but most of that is the planners’ and/or architect’s fault. They DO add to many areas, e.g. Baltimore, which once had the 2nd highest crime rate in the US, now has a fully rejuvenated seaport area that admittedly lacks some buzz on those very few days when there is no convention (or Orioles games!) Mainly they are busy, so they are not soulless that often.

Mansfield should not have been flaunted on a platform like the LL without a tough expert to tackle him and show him for what is is.

[J. Seerski]

REJECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ABP says NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[PVC King]

Yes indeed the Bord has ruled

Citywest convention centre is blocked

May 29, 2006 17:20
An Bord Pleanála has refused retention planning for a convention centre in south Dublin by HSS, a company connected to developer Jim Mansfield.

The 6,000-seater centre, with provision for 675 car parking spaces, had been granted planning permission by South Dublin County Council last October.

But in a decision today, an Bord Pleanála refused planning, in part, due to the scale of the development. The €50m centre first became a source of controversy when Mr Mansfield's company built a steel frame and part of the roof without full planning approval.


In 2004, the firm was fined €1,750 and ordered to pay costs of almost €30,000 to the council after Tallaght District Court found it had failed to comply with an enforcement order by the council to stop work on the centre. But last year the Council decided to grant him permission to build the convention centre at Citywest, in Saggart, Co Dublin.

A spokesman for Jim Mansfield described the decision as disappointing. He added that that the company would look at its options when it had read the full report.

[Peter Fitz]

ah yes, the tread can finally be put to bed ...

Mansfield's giant heap of crap is not to be

Is that definitely it now ?? no appeals, no come back ?