Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:18 pm

It looks like we may well end up with this heap of crap conference centre @ citywest, SDCC are attempting to rezone the site.

I think I saw plans before showing a giant warehouse with a god awful red brick tacked on front, finished with pvc georgian windows. Please tell me I'm wrong. :(
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Postby notjim » Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:30 pm

o please make him knock it down, please!
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Postby PVC King » Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:13 am

I can assure you that everything possible will be done.

This is not Citywest, DavyHickey have developed a World class best practice suburban business campus at Citywest, this is a klingon worst practice pastiche shed.
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Postby urbanisto » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:29 pm

I suppose if its being rezoned as part of the new Development Plan then it is open to comment from all members of the public but will anyone out there be interested enough to disagree with the Council. I am sure the councillors will vote through the rezoning as there are obvious economic considerations here regardless of whether the actual building is crap or not. A conference centre would be a mojor coup for South Dublin. Can an Bord Pleanala continue to refuse planning permission even after the Develoment Plan has been altered? Can the Government step in and over rule the County Council? Highly unlikely with Martin Cullen at the helm, though interestingly John O'Donoghue who is currently responsible for the national conference centre plan (he'll be bringing proposals to cabinet 'shortly', with the next 'two months', soon, etc) is often touted to take over Environment in the coming reshuffle.
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Postby Devin » Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:52 am

Yes it can still be refused by Bord Pleanala after the Dev Plan alteration. It's just a case of the Bord having the balls to refuse it.

The rezoning just shows you how rife political influence still is in planning. Mansfield is incredibly well-connected (note the only photo available of him for a while was with Leinster House in the background). I'm not blowing An Taisce's trumpet here but if Ian L. hadn't made that Article 35 appeal, the Conference centre would be built now & would be creating a car-dependent mess, contributing to the U.S. style edge-city that Dublin is becoming. The government are just not interested in intervening in issues of major planing & development affecting the country like this. And of course the building would be mock-Palladian rubbish.

Nothing against Saggart, but it's not the place for a National Conference Centre.
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:41 am

CityWest centre gets the green light
Daniel McConnell



South Dublin County Council last night voted to allow a €50 million convention centre, previously rejected by An Bord Pleanála, to be built at CityWest in Dublin.

As part of a special meeting of the council, members voted by 21 to 3 to allow Mr Jim Mansfield, the property's developer, to conclude construction of the centre, which is already half built.

Mr Mansfield's associates, building firm HSS, has had two convictions in relation to planning successfully brought against them by South Dublin County Council.

Opposing the development, Green Party councillor Mr Fintan McCarthy said that the infrastructure was not in place in the locality to support such a project.

Councillors speaking in favour of the project said that for the benefit of the county, the previous behaviour of the promoter must be separated from the idea of locating the 600-seat centre in CityWest.

Speaking at the meeting, Cllr John Hannon (FF) said that the "two issues must be separated".

"There is no doubt that people with vested interests from outside the county are trying to influence the vote here. If we as councillors are not going to advocate this project on behalf of the county, then who will," he said.

Earlier, the council voted by a clear majority to allow a Brittas-based blacksmith retain his house which had been previously built without planning permission.

An earlier High Court ruling had ordered that the property of Mr Martin McDonagh be demolished.

The county planning manager, Mr Ciarán Kennedy, voiced concern that because of this High Court order, any vote to retain the house could be open to future legal challenges.
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby vinnyfitz » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:46 am

The chances of ABP refusing a repeat application are next to zero unless new arguments are brough forward. Notwithstanding the inappropriateness of the location the main basis for ABP's previous refusal was the breach of zoning.

Appellants would need to come up with strong new arguments now that the Council have buckled under Mansfield's lobbying.

I wonder what are the odds that the NRA take a more robust line on the traffic implications this time round?
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby kefu » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:24 pm

Nor should we ever forget that the Fianna Fail Ardfheis was going on in the abominably disgusting Citywest Hotel even as this illegal monstrosity was first being erected.
The worst thing about this is that when it's built - it could scupper plans for a real world-class city conference centre. All the local politicians will be wheeled out saying 'why do we need a conference centre?' when we already have this.
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby zozimus » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:52 pm

"DavyHickey have developed a World class best practice suburban business campus at Citywest"

World Class, apart from lack of pavements, and terrible public transport (the luas feeder bus goes to the square instead of red cow -75 minutes into city centre).
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby Rockflanders » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:06 pm

Any planning/commercial/tourist/architectural guidelines you can find worth a pinch say that a conferece centre to be of value to the country must be situated in a city centre location at a transport hub.
This is truly a shame.
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby shadow » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:40 pm

We might as well tear up all planning guidelines. It seems as if it is a case of build it and planning will come around. How can professionals seriously advise clients of planning standards when they can be rewritten to suit the day, month, year, fashion, bloddymindedness etc...
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby GregF » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:43 pm

The City West Hotel interior is a right laugh......something ye'd see in Las Vegas...it's like a themed hotel....with it's mock eclectic mix of old styles....pastiche in overdrive....classical plastercast statues, fluted columns, chandeliers, oriental rugs and carpets and mawkish gilded paintings....Woo hoo.....yuck! ......and all in the middle of the sticks. Ye's should check out the Sheldon Hotel on the Kylemore Road in Ballyfermot too.....more of the same but on a smaller scale and in an working class urban setting.
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby PVC King » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:56 pm

An Bord must consider the validity of the zoning and I think that it will fail upon that,
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:19 pm

Can they do that?

The title of this thread is the best, can't help but laugh every time
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby PVC King » Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:53 pm

Yes the Bord as the higher authority must consider the validity of the zoning which 99% of the time is well considered by the planners, maybe it is just a formality but nearly all Bord Plenalla decisions make reference to 'having considered the zoning it is considered to be reasonable' or something to that effect.

The rationale behind the rezoning according to Councillor Joe Hannon of FF was 'if we don't support the County, who will?'

Under that rationale it would be very difficult to grant planning permission for an important national facility on the basis of a DIMBY zoning. The previous decision has stated that any decision on the location of the National conference centre would be premature in advance of the National Conference Centre Location Study, which has not been published to date. The study is considering three locations none of which include Saggart. It goes without saying that a conference centre of this size would materially compromise the viability of any subsequent and correctly sited conference centre as selected by the current study group.

In this light it would be very easy for An Bord Plennala to refuse permission for failing to address the prior reasons for refusal, the Councillors in SDCC have made fools of themselves, particularly Joe Hannon I have never heard such a pathetic reasoning in all my life.
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby Lotts » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:26 pm

If it goes ahead it will certaintly illustrate the need to get some of the most experienced private planning consultants (such as the former county manager) onto your pay-roll. There's a lesson to be learn here for anyone attempting a development of this scale. And I guess it's to not bother spending too much on architects and instead spend the cash on people who understand the planning process...
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby PVC King » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:01 pm

Lotts wrote:If it goes ahead it will certaintly illustrate the need to get some of the most experienced private planning consultants (such as the former county manager) onto your pay-roll. There's a lesson to be learn here for anyone attempting a development of this scale. And I guess it's to not bother spending too much on architects and instead spend the cash on people who understand the planning process...


More like people who know how to subvert the planning process as contained within the development plans as written by professional planners.

If this gets built it will be Quarryvale all over again, except that 50+ illegal developments have occured before the Frank Dunlop school of planning was drawn upon.
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby emf » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:06 pm

Graham Hickey wrote:Can they do that?

The title of this thread is the best, can't help but laugh every time



I love it too, always have a chuckle everytime I see it!,

It sums the situation up perfectly!
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby GrahamH » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:52 pm

From today’s Times:

Developer Jim Mansfield yesterday revealed revised plans for his controversial convention centre at City West on the outskirts of the capital located next to his flagship 4 star, 725 bedroom City West Hotel. Describing the design for the centre as “innovative and unique”, the developer settled upon a hybrid of styles, with influences ranging from the French Baroque the Palace of Versailles to The Great Hall of the People in Tiananmen Square.

Image

However the conference centre is but one element of a much larger scheme which was unveiled with great pomp and ceremony in City West yesterday.

Image

Most controversial is a landmark 13 storey office tower planned adjacent to the centre which An Taisce have announced they intend to object to, describing its height as “excessive”. They also characterise the design of the structure as “gimmicky” and “utilitarian”, in particular citing the use of grey concrete as cladding for the tower which they claim is out of character with the established vernacular of yellow ABS plastic brick. Complete with roof-top air conditioning plants and associated ancillary services, the tower rises to some 49m, just 11m short of Liberty Hall according to an An Taisce spokesperson, adding, “It is arrogant in the extreme”.

Image

A 20,000 space multi-storey car park is also planned, which by established convention in Ireland is actually larger than the conference centre itself. This is expected to be the primary attraction of the whole complex and hence will be fitted out to the highest standards.

Image

The other flagship element to the scheme is a sports and leisure complex next to the centre which can be converted to accommodate larger displays and exhibitions. By virtue of the international clients expected to be attracted to the centre, it was decided an architect would be needed for this phase of the project.

Image

A striking piece of contemporary architecture, it makes use of an innovative structural steel system developed in Sweden and features the largest unsupported roof-span in Ireland. However Mr Mansfield does concede that unlike the hotel, it may not be ‘everyone’s cup of tea’.

Image

Although yet to be built, a proposed Luas line is included in the plans running along the eastern side of the site. The developer is confident that the line will be under construction by the time the complex opens. It is planned to arrive at the site by running down the median of the M50. An ambitious high density, high rise, two storey apartment development is proposed next to the line. It is difficult to anticipate how the Irish market will react to this radical new form of living.

Image

Finally an exotic new main street entitled ‘Palm Drive’ is planned for the complex, lined with offices and apartments. There is expected to be high demand as Spar, Centra, Super Valu and Mace have already snapped up all retail units in the development.

Image
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby GrahamH » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:52 pm

Sorry - couldn't resist when I saw that yellow building :D
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby Paul Clerkin » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:00 pm

ROFL - this is a joke right?
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby GrahamH » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:06 pm

Maybe...


(min 12 characters)
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby PVC King » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:35 pm

Gubu Gubu Gubu
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby Jack White » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:20 pm

[quote="Graham Hickey"]From today’]

I love it 'A hybred of styles'

In other words it will be as embarrasing as the Four Seasons Hotel which has not done done well and is converting rooms into private apartments.

'it was decided that an architect would be needed for this phase of the project'

So Ireland is to get a thirteen storey tower that was not designed by a trained professional, I wonder did he design it himself?

'it may not be everyones cup of tea'

An admission if ever I heard one that it is embarrassing

'as Spar, Centra, Super Value and Mace have already snapped up all retailunits in the scheme'

Serious retail players

Graham, is the lego reference yours or did it come attached?
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Re: Citywest : Mansfield's giant heap of crap

Postby PVC King » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:50 pm

This would be the biggest joke in years if the Local Authority didn't support it, I think I heard of planning application in Saggart that was turned down on the basis of the engineers assessment that there wasn't sufficient water capacity for a much scheme, in that case South Dublin gave permission but An Board Pleannalla turned it down.

I agree with Diaspora this isn't Citywest this is Saggart and I checked on platform11 there is no planned Luas line to Saggart and certainly not one going down the middle of the M50, the road to Cork & Limerick is actually called the N7, or did he think that he would benefit from the M50 upgrade?

This is just as ridiculous as that theme park a few years ago proposed for Lusk
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