Dublin Trams

Dublin Trams

Postby J. Seerski » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:33 am

Here is an interesting question -

How long did it take for the original Tramways to be constructed in the late nineteenth century? Just thinking that it couldn't have taken as long back then (don't forget the luas was proposed to be FINISHED by 1994 initially!)

So any takers? Not forgetting the old tram network was far more extensive - I think 10 lines or more (an historical note - the current no. 10 bus follows the old No. 10 tram route - Donnybrook to NCR!)

Please does anyone know????

:)
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Postby niall murphy » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:35 pm

It probably didnt take as long to construct each route but its hardly comparable. The utility diversion that had to take place along the lines was quite amazing. Stuff was just thrown under the streets every which way, so this needed to be sorted out. Also they didnt build the likes of Taney Bridge etc when doing theirs!!
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Postby PVC King » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:44 pm

Originally posted by niall murphy
It probably didnt take as long to construct each route but its hardly comparable.


It was probably more complex as vast amounts of land had to be acquired compulsorily, each route requiring an act of parliment and this was all acheived by the private sector.

LUAS in contrast had a full disused rail line on one route and it is entirely a victim of its designers on the other. While being 1000% behind public transport I am 100% angry with whatLUAS has become. Three things stand out for me

1. The Tallaght route via the centre of the Naas Rd, what does this route service other than car lots?

2. The Calatrava bridge in Dundrum preceding the Macken St bridge, why did Dundrum require such an expensive bridge, does anyone have any pictures of the original bridge?

3. The behaviour of the contractors in particular at Harcourt St and the recent derailment. It is not as if this project was on time and on budget.

Three words, Good litigation Solicitors :mad:
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Postby AndrewP » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:12 pm

The Dundrum bridge isn't Calatrava, is it?
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:03 pm

The Taney Bridge in Dundrum is not by Calatrava, though it may be slightly Calatravaesque although I don't think so myself......




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Postby PVC King » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:36 pm

Originally posted by Paul Clerkin
The Taney Bridge in Dundrum is not by Calatrava, though it may be slightly Calatravaesque although I don't think so myself......


It isn't your traditional bridge and I'm sure it has a pricetag akin to a Calatrava when a less 'Over-engineered' solution would have been appropriate.
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Postby garethace » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:39 pm

Does anyone know where exactly around here, that DL/RD council starts and DCC ends?

Is this bridge perhaps like a termination point between the two? :)
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:03 pm

Originally posted by Diaspora


It isn't your traditional bridge and I'm sure it has a pricetag akin to a Calatrava when a less 'Over-engineered' solution would have been appropriate.



See we cannot please you. Sure here's a less "over engineered solution," - it just looks like the Matt Talbot bridge over the Liffey......
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Postby bluefoam » Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:08 am

My big problem with the Luas is that it doesn't link the two sides of the city, making it useless for many commuters. I was never a big believer in the Northside Southside divide, but it seems that recently the city planners have done everything in their power to split the city.
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Postby JJ » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:36 am

A couple of answers to the above.


The original tram system was based on the earlier horse trams which were built from about 1871 on. The system consisted of many individual lines and the electrification of these started around 1896. It grew gradually over the years before being outclasseed in every sense by the growing bus market.

Jim Kilroy's book Irish trams gives a very detailed accout of all this.

There were many objections to the electrification as people were concerned about the effects on the horses ( they thought they would be electricuted) and it also involved the digging up of some existing lines and the installation of the overheads ( the overheads were all based on using only poles. No building fixings were used)

Taney bridge cost about €9m to build and was designed by Roughan and O'Donovan engineers. One of the reasons for its shape was to allow it to be constructed simultaneously with a new road widening and junction reconstruction scheme at Taney Junction. The total span is about 180m. I've attached a picture of the old bridge which spanned about 8m !

I'd agree with the commments about HaArcourt Street. The general houskeeping by the contractors was disgraceful.

The recent derailment was an total non event. It happened during testing and in particular during a shunting movement. Irish Rail had three such de-railments the same week in their Inchicore depot. In railway terms its no worse than a flat tyre on a bus.

Cheers all,
JJ



:)
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Postby 3KIC » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:46 pm

Originally posted by Paul Clerkin



See we cannot please you. Sure here's a less "over engineered solution," - it just looks like the Matt Talbot bridge over the Liffey......


SHOCK!
An Taisce consultant proposes "Yellow Pack" Architecture
SHOCK!
;)
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Postby PVC King » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Originally posted by 3KIC


SHOCK!
An Taisce consultant proposes "Yellow Pack" Architecture
SHOCK!
;)


I have now moved away from An Taisce and I far from called for a yellow-pack solution, nor would the Matt Talbot bridge be appropriate as its biggest flaw is its low clearance, that prevents boats from docking close to the Custom House.

But given that everything comes back to the scarcity of resources there were better places to use the funds. Surely the Macken St bridge merited greater priority or even more logically an integrated system. Functional and clean would have cost a lot less and that was what I was suggesting, if you want yellow pack just commute the existing system there are no frills such as integrated ticketing or a rail connection to the airport.
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Postby PVC King » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:19 pm

Sorry, always doing this:)
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Postby garethace » Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:08 pm

An taisce behind you? Oh well...

Anyhow, this is my only comment:

I've attached a picture of the old bridge which spanned about 8m !


That is what I call an 'upgrade'.... very nice slide attachment JJ, thanx... and very nice explanation too...

Brian O' Hanlon.
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Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:03 am

Line A serves a major industrial area with thousands of employees. Many people in tallaght work in these 'parking lots' off the naas road and currently have no way of getting there other than getting the poxy 56a to e.p mooney and walking the rest of the way.

It opens up an entirely different axis to that already served by dublin bus to tallaght, to travel the same route as existing bus services would be pointless. I can't get to any of the areas served by line A by bus (save O'Connell Street.)

I had this discussion with you before Diaspora ... which of the six major roads crossing at walkinstown roundabout would you close to facilitate luas? You replied that did line A not also deserve a taney bridge, which may be true, but where should it go after that, down the crumlin road ??? West dublin is riddled with traffic & more than most areas of the city, there is/was no scope for closing any of the major routes from same to town to facilitate luas.



... great pic of the taney bridge Paul
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Postby ewanduffy » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:54 pm

Originally posted by Diaspora
It was probably more complex as vast amounts of land had to be acquired compulsorily, each route requiring an act of parliment and this was all acheived by the private sector.


Not so. They were all built on public roads. Yes they needed an Act of Parliament, all that was then necessary was to pay for wayleave rights to the robber barons in Dublin Corporation, something which continued up until the mid 1960s despite there being no tramlines!
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Postby kefu » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:19 pm

What have the completion of the Taney Bridge and the Macken Street Bridge got to with each other any way?
One was built by the RPA, one is being built by Dublin City Council.
More relevant point would have been why not build Macken St Bridge before Blackhall Place (James Joyce) Bridge.
Can't understand your logic here Diaspora - a €9 million spend for an architectural triumph of a bridge that can be seen for miles around is a lot better than a €6 million spend on some concrete span bridge.
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Postby blue » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:19 pm

As JJ has already pointed out the main reason behind the choice of bridge type was so the very busy intersection could remain open as much as possible during construction.

Image

The second reason was aesthetics and I think they should be praised for their choice not chastised. Roughan and O'Donovan are quite forward thinking in terms of taking aesthetics into account right form the word go and not just as an after thought. They won the first AAI award given for a bridge and make modern motorway driving a bit more interesting.

Engineers get a bad rap for when it come to design, sometimes rightly, but when they do design something like the Taney bridge they should be praised.
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Postby PVC King » Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:41 pm

Originally posted by ewanduffy


Not so. They were all built on public roads. Yes they needed an Act of Parliament, all that was then necessary was to pay for wayleave rights to the robber barons in Dublin Corporation, something which continued up until the mid 1960s despite there being no tramlines!


In many cases there were no cpo's but in many cases there were, particularly where the roads weren't wide enough to accomodate both tram and carriage seperately, hence the cpo of many a front garden as described by the united tramway case of 1907 that gave the phrase 'injurious effection' But your point is well made not all tram routes required wholesale cpo's.

Originally posted by PeterFitzpatrick
which of the six major roads crossing at walkinstown roundabout would you close to facilitate luas? where should it go after that, down the crumlin road ???


A routing via the KCR or Crumlin childrens Hospital would have served a much denser population base, and it is not a case of closing roads but rather adjusting the hierarchy of use to reflect a substantial investment (in the right place). .

Originally posted by Peter Fitzpatrick
West dublin is riddled with traffic & more than most areas of the city, there is/was no scope for closing any of the major routes from same to town to facilitate luas?


So this area of Dublin is busier than the crossings at Hueston Station, Church St, Capel St and Gardiner St. Did you ever consider that the existing poor public transport where people live might have a lot to do with such high car dependency?

Originally posted by Peter Fitzpatrick
It opens up an entirely different axis to that already served by dublin bus to tallaght, to travel the same route as existing bus services would be pointless. I can't get to any of the areas served by line A by bus (save O'Connell Street.)


Deficiencies in the exisating Dublin Bus network are no excuse to send a rail link down the centre of a Dual Carriageway past multiple car lots, when other routes through moderately dense residential areas exist. What are the major employers on the Naas Rd??? Sisk employs 2500 but they're mostly onsite I believe.
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Postby garethace » Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:30 pm

True,

I think Sisk's 2500 workers show up at the Red Cow Inn each xmas for a day-long piss-up.... but that's about it... all other times of the year they are just adding to the general conjestion going into Dublin city centre or whereever the Sisk building site are these days...
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Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:59 pm

The fact that there are ‘car lots’ filled with cars lining the Naas road suggests that people working in the area have no other means to get there.

The Red Cow, despite its current situation, is a good location for a Park & Ride in to the future. Crossing major junctions as luas enters the city centre is inevitable. The fact that the red cow is the busiest junction in Dublin, outlines the volume of traffic on the Naas road. It is five lanes heading westbound from the long mile junction, and cannot handle the volume of traffic at that.

Running luas by Crumlin Hospital or the KCR is a nice idea Diaspora but still involves closing key arteries in to the city centre, the crumlin road is too narrow, as is cromwellsfort, kimage road west, and kimmage road lower never mind how to handle Kimage Cross Roads or the Walkinstown Roundabout.
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Postby PVC King » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:32 pm

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
The fact that there are ‘car lots’ filled with cars lining the Naas road suggests that people working in the area have no other means to get there.


I was more referring to to the large number of motor importers and distributors and jap import operations as well as distribution facilities such as BOC etc. None of which employ large numbers of commuters due to them being 24 hour operations.

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
The Red Cow, despite its current situation, is a good location for a Park & Ride in to the future. Crossing major junctions as luas enters the city centre is inevitable. The fact that the red cow is the busiest junction in Dublin, outlines the volume of traffic on the Naas road. It is five lanes heading westbound from the long mile junction, and cannot handle the volume of traffic at that.


The N7 is improved but surely the junction must rank alongside the worst in Ireland due to its existing traffic load. Park and Ride works well in places like Sallins and Rush but I'm not convinced that people will drive a short distance and park, but more likely is a scenario of this facility serving commuters from Carlow who will fill it by 0730.

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Running luas by Crumlin Hospital or the KCR is a nice idea Diaspora but still involves closing key arteries in to the city centre, the crumlin road is too narrow, as is cromwellsfort, kimage road west, and kimmage road lower never mind how to handle Kimage Cross Roads or the Walkinstown Roundabout.


Classic LUAS the option that could be considered 'the best of a bad lot' is selected. What should have been done was one of two things, either push through a route via Drimnagh to Heuston/James' Hospital on strategic grounds or admit that all routes considered were critically flawed and conclude that the route required at least a partial metro section. No loaf is better than a bad loaf, if it requires three loaves to solve the hunger later.
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Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:36 pm

In your opinion it’s critically flawed, it’s a light rail system not a metro, you're not going to solve everything with one line. It serves Tallaght primarily which at the moment doesn't even have an adequate qbc. You've outlined your disapproval at length so maybe now its time for us to shut up and wait and see it in action.

Cheers ! :D
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Postby PVC King » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:36 pm

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
You've outlined your disapproval at length so maybe now its time for us to shut up and wait and see it in action.

Cheers ! :D



So a breakfast at the Red Cow in August is on, to view LUAS operating and count the number of 01-cw regs in the LUAS park & ride facility.
:D
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Postby GrahamH » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:28 pm

Just comparing Luas with Dublin trams - in 1879 horse-drawn trams left Rathmines every three and a half minutes at peak times - albethey without 250+ bowler hats crammed on board - compared with an initial 5 mins for Luas.

And even earlier in 1867, it was served by an omnibus every 10 minutes.
There were also plans on the back of the success of the Underground in London to build a line underground from the city centre to Rathmines, with 3 stations on the route from the canal to the Temple Road area. It's quite extraordinary the extent of the commuter-belt even then, and the tram numbers don't even take into account the hoards of people who walked to work.

There's great potential in this area today for this walking and cycling routine to be replicated with the eventual sell-off of Portobello Barracks. High density housing here, a mere 20 minutes walk from Dame St or 10 to Stephen's Green would be a major boost in getting people back into/near the city, not to mention the knock-on improvement of the dingy Rathmines Road - and is in direct state control.
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