32-floor building planned for Dublin

Postby Andrew Duffy » Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:46 am

Someone here has never lived in an apartment building:

- You are not allowed place advertising boards on the building. This is why for sale boards are all clustered together around the entrance to the development. You aren't allowed repaint the exterior or hang washing on it either.

- An apartment needs a few things that an office doesn't necessarily; namely windows that open and let in as much light as possible - most apartments only have windows on one of four sides. Balconies are also very desirable. Therefore, it is not possible to build a practical apartment building without visible floors. The Hancock Tower in NYC is not a practical apartment building.

Finally, damning an unbuilt modern building by suggesting it will have the same build quality and suffer from the same lack of maintenance as a 1960s system-built social flat complex is pathetic. Ballymun is not the definition of high-rise architecture; its buildings are not even tall, and the design is certainly never going to be repeated.
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Postby PVC King » Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:26 pm

This isn't high definition either. And what is to stop people hanging equally colourful clothes from the balconies?

Can you not sell the design?

I couldn't it's bland but bland on a grossly inappropriate scale.
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Postby PVC King » Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:47 pm

Andrew the Hancock Tower is in Chicago,
you are right it would be a long commute to Midtown Mannhatten

Comparison to Ballymun is justified on two grounds

Firstly it is a public project and it will contain social housing,

Secondly it has a stone or rendered finish.

Steel and glass or at least a little thought in selecting innovative cladding into the design would have helped.

Bland Bland Bland
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Postby FIN » Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:18 pm

steel and glass on an apartment building.... exposed internally i presume!!!! would an taisce not have a problem with that..seeing as u r champions of quality of life
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Postby PVC King » Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:43 pm

There is greater problem with 32 storeys of non-descipt render or stone. Enough negativity though

Why don't you try a detailed desciption of the building and sell its positive design qualities

Because it I can't see any, it is a mishmash of inappropriate design cliches in my opinion.
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Postby FIN » Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:52 pm

so what are the design cliches? and as i have said before i haven't seen the thing. all i have seen is that pic of a model you gave a link to. it may be inapprociate but i don't know yet.
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Postby PVC King » Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:20 pm

The broken form at the top is a direct rip off from the Millenium tower which is less than half it's height.

The glazed circular section towads the back of the model is a complete cliche.

There is nothing original in this
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Postby FIN » Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:25 pm

that's true. but i was once told that there is never anything original in architecture as it's all been done before. now i don't particularly believe that but it makes one think.
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Postby Andrew Duffy » Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:14 am

Mixed up Hankcock Center and Trump Tower, but both are fine examples of the hermetically sealed skyscraper apartment (or mixed-use) building - and of how money doesn't necessarily buy a good quality of life.

Firstly it is a public project and it will contain social housing


My oh my, you are a snob.
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Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:18 pm

Not a snob, it was an utter disgrace the treatment the people of Ballymun were subjected to. Lifts not working facilities not put in etc etc etc

I am sure that if you were around in the late 60's you would have been talking about a new and exciting form of urban development.
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:42 pm

Originally posted by Diaspora
Not a snob, it was an utter disgrace the treatment the people of Ballymun were subjected to. Lifts not working facilities not put in etc etc etc


the lifts not working is not the buildings fault..rather the council as while not knowing much about ballymun i believe they were council owned.
facilities not put in??? which ones?
it is very easy to blame the architecture and architects but upkeep has a lot to do with the sucess of a building. of course if necessary facilities aren't put in then u look at the architect's but then again back in that time it might not have been part and parcel of the norm to put these facilities in and could have been up to the council to provide elsewhere. i am not going to defend them as i believe i have only seen them once and that ws from a distance and so know nothing about the problems.
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Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:56 pm

I agree on the lifts Fin but in the context of the accusations of snobbery it needed to be raised.

In the context of the facilities many integrated developments are commenced. Many of these developments historically did not have the 'social benefit' elements completed leaving the residents with little or none of the elements that make communities livable.

It is not the architects fault if the site managers fail to maintain facilities down the line. But it is a wise move for architects to conduct consultations with prospective site managers. Or be aware of all the things that can go wrong. I think open balconies at this height could present problems.

I am still of the opinion that on design grounds this is a poor submission.

That it is not the correct site for a 32 or similarly tall building.

I prefer the idea of tall office buildings located at integrated transport hubs.
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:31 pm

oh! right.
in regards to interviewing prespective site managers..that is not up to the architect either. that is the client and therefore the council in this case. architect's never do that. the site manager is always appointed by the client. the management company's name is given as part of the planning process, usually part of the conditions. i don't know if it would help anyway if we did interview them as the manager could change in 6 months so it would be pointless.

unfortunately balconies are seen as a necessary evil in regards to defensible space. i agree with u that a building so high nobody is going to use them as it would literally blow ur head off but then again maybe i'm wrong.

i thought this was an intregrated transport hub. or will be soon. around busaras and connolly would also be a location for high rises...not apartments though!!!!
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Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:39 pm

With developments on a similar scale it is not uncommon to see multi-disciplinary teams working together such as, planning consultants, architects, Valuers and more latterly the larger property mgt agencies.

It is only in the strictest sense that architects don't have responsibility, in terms of ensuring a development is approved developerslike muti-disciplinary consultations.

I entirely agree Tara St- Busaras- Connolly presents a much better transportation infrastructure. Spencer Dock as a Metro terminus would provide a new dimension to transportation capacity.
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:23 pm

fair point but i have never personally worked with a management company but it may happen.

and would not trying to develop two such hubs not be in the best interests of the city.
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Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:43 pm

I am sure that as the new management company input develops we'll all be working on this basis. Which can only be a good thing as they bring great experience to projects.

As for developing a second viable hub it has to be a good thing, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

The last thing anyone wants to do is exacerbate the mess at Hueston.

Public transport in Dublin couldn't be worse considering how much money was spent.

Can you imagine if Tom Parlons long distance commuting constituents were gridlocked out of getting back on time to vote for him?
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:50 pm

u could be right. i would like to hear from anyone who has been in this position to see how much interference happened in the design and how they got on with this consultant....
as i believe we are in a transitional period from a 2nd rated country to a top rated i believe that we in this generation just have to live with the disruption caused during our "growing up". it will prove a sucess in a few years time and everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about and of course everyone is going to say they were behind the ideas all the time.
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:51 pm

lol.....disapora u didn't take to kindly to my joke the first time i decided not to mention it again but i can see she must feel the same!!!! ha,ha...
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Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:04 pm

Point taken on the joke,

but I hate politically motivated bad planning

What do you will work well in time the infrastructure?
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:38 pm

yep. i think it will.
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Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:47 pm

I agree the port tunnel will do excellent.
The Luas provide a little extra capacity.

But the roads were planned very badly.

When the decision in 2000 was made to build Motorways to Belfast, Cork and Galway they continued with the same 7- 20 mile bypasses.

Three contracts were all they needed.

The absence of a metro and airport rail link at this time are felt by all commuters. Until these (Road and Rail) are completed Ireland willcontinue to be a second world country infrastructurally

But you are right on eaten bread being soon forgotten
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:59 pm

the motorways if we are to believe the policitians will be underway soon and not just these stupid little by-passes. but we can't build our own raods seemingly. i think we should hire foreigners and they will lash them down.
and the pace of evolution is slow. patience is needed.
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Postby Niall » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:08 pm

I agree, the days of the Minister and half the cabinet opening 3 mile bypasses should be consigned to history.

If we can't build cheap roads bring Johnny foreigner in to build them. There is no reason why Portlaoise to Cork and Limerick can't be one contract.

This is a very small country!!!
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Postby PVC King » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:09 pm

I think we can thank the IFA for many of the hold ups.

I don't believe the polititians, I think patience is warranted, loads of it and it needs to be towards the other motorists.

You are right about the foreign contractors, the development of the A7 in Germany was completed from Wurzburg to the Swiss border in three contracts. A distance of about 500-600 kms
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Postby FIN » Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:06 pm

i don't know if the ifa are to blame. but it is our planning system. well i hope the introduction of this fast-track for big infrastructural projects will cut this out. a lot of it is small minded people as well. i know with the loughrea by-pass that it was proposed twenty years ago (as it is a shit of a town to come through ) the business people of the town objected cos they thought they would lose money from the business. as it turns out if u stop there u will be waiting for ages to get out so nobody stop there anymore. now the business people are srying for it. it's starting soon by the way. but a main part of the motorway is supposed to start soon also. i have no problem with jonny foreigner coming in and doing our roads for us. after all we did it for yanks and brits.
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